Icynene soft foam spary insulation

[Fullback66]

Hi, I am new to this forum.
I have a question about insulation. Has anyone used Icynene soft Foam to insulate their garage or home.

THis is the foam stuff that expands 100 times in volume in seconds.

THis is the web site:

http://www.icynene.com/InsulationSystem.aspx

Question:
Does it work well?

IS hard to drywall over?

Was is expensive?

thanks,
fb66

 

[fefarms]

I had my home done with a very similar product called Demilec
you can read about that one here: http://www.sealection500.com/dem/s500/index.php

It does work quite well. The house is tight, quiet, and energy efficient.

The product takes considerable skill to apply and the process is rather messy. The applicators wore moon suits with tear-away plastic sheets over their visors. They went through a lot of those sheets!

It is not hard to drywall over BUT the wall cavities cannot be overfilled. Any places that are overfilled have to be shaved down with a big machete-like knife and other similar tools. The product may seem light and fluffy but there's no way you are going to compress it with a sheet of drywall. About 25% of the install time was spent shaving down the high spots.

The open cell foams don't quite meet the prescribed energy code of nominal R21 in a 2x6 wall cavity. Their actual energy performance easily beats fiberglass batts, when you consider the built-in air barrier and the typical installation "quality" of fiberglass. But the energy code blindly considers only the nominal value printed on the package. So you may have a fight with the local building inspectors over non-traditional insulations.

The second floor ceilings in my house use R38 fiberglass batts because the foam products need a solid substrate for application. I did not use any can lighting in this house, kept all the ductwork inside the conditioned space, and avoided ceiling penetrations wherever possible, so as to minimize air leakage paths (the main weakness of fiberglass).

If you wanted to use icynene throughout, you'd need to apply the icynene to the underside of the roof of your garage and not the ceiling.

The Demilec solution cost me about $1.50 per square foot installed. This was about 3 years ago -- at the time fiberglass batts cost $0.50 per square foot installed. I used closed-cell R7 per inch foam on the basement walls due to possible concerns about water infiltration. This product was more like $2.00 per square foot for similar insulation performance (you use much less and don't fill the wall cavities completely).

 

[Fullback66]

Can you tell a differance in you energy bills. I checked out the web site. It looks the same as Icynene. You can fill every crack in your house or garage.

The reason I would us the Icynene or Demilec in my garage is to have a cathedral cieling to have room for a lift and to save money heating. I would like to also put this in my home if it works like they say it does.

They say it will never break down. How can they tell if it has not been on the market that long.

thanks,
fb66

 

[nosualc]

Was is expensive?

I had a guy come out and give me a bid for my 40x50 bldg.

His bid was three times the regular fiberglass bids.

The Icynene is neat stuff, but not worth 3x (or even 2x). My $.02.

-nosualc

 

[fefarms]

Demilec vs. fiberglass was 3X the cost for me, and I thought it was worth it.

I still do. Of course, this was for my house and not a detached garage. The house is heated and cooled full time and thus better insulation makes more of a difference.

I am confident the stuff won't break down, the chemistry is simple and the performance over time predictable. It appears to be a similar material to the foam in seat cushions. Sealed up in a wall and free from mechanical stress it will easily outlast me.

The spray foams allow you to address special situations that fiberglass does not handle well, such as the band joist area or walls containing wiring or plumbing.

The energy performance of my house is right in line with what Manual J predicts -- 900 BTU per degree-hour. I can forecast my electric bill within about $15 based on monthly heating degree day summaries and the COP of the ground source heat pump. Comparisons between different houses and different climates are fraught with applesranges effects, but just to put a number on the table, I pay about $60 per month to heat 6000 square feet in the coldest months in Western Oregon. Spring, fall, and summertime cooling costs are less.

 

[Junkman]

I had a guy come out and give me a bid for my 40x50 bldg.

His bid was three times the regular fiberglass bids.

The Icynene is neat stuff, but not worth 3x (or even 2x). My $.02.

-nosualc

Possibly not today to you, but 10 years down the road when the energy costs have doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled, you will still be reaping the benefits of the savings. I have a friend with a 10,000 square foot home on the lake in MA (built in 2003) that heats the home with approximately 600 gallons of oil. My home is 3000 square feet (built in 1982) and as energy efficient as was possible back then, and I use 900 gallons of oil. At $2.00 per gallon, my home cost $600 a year to heat more than his. Had the product been available in 1982, I could probably heat the home with 200 gallons of oil, which would result in a 700 gallon savings or $1400. The only time that I would say that it isn't worth the additional cost, is if you plan to live in the home only for a short time. You won't get back the installation cost on resale in the short run. Most people don't want to pay a premium for something that they can't see or touch. This is why so many new homes are built poorly, but have fancy features in the kitchen and bath.

 

[nosualc]

That's what happens when people base decisions with long term costs on the initial purchase price.....

In the interest of brevity, my original post may have led you to believe that I made this decision lightly. This is not the case...

The bids I had were of the same R values (R44 ceiling, R19 walls, with foam sealing around doors and windows, and a 4 mil vapor barrier). The cost differential (foam vs fiberglass) was about $8000.

The building in question is not a home, rather a 2000 ft^2 unoccupied outbuilding. I minimally heat (45 or so) this building during the winter (nov-mar) with high efficiency heat, and do not plan to cool it. Here in MN, in an average winter, it has cost around $100 per month to heat this building.

If I use this bldg for the next 20 years (which is admittedly a wild a$$ guess), foam would need to save me $80 per heating month (average) over the next 20 years for it to justify the cost.

If the insulation properties are similar, how much would the better sealing of foam save me? 10%? 20%? 50%? Nobody, including the guy trying to sell it to me, was able to quantify this for me. For the sake of argument, lets say that foam will save me 20% (I think this generous).

Assuming winters to be equal, if I use 20% less fuel, fuel would need to average 4X its current cost to yield the magic $80 per heating month break even point. Could it happen. Certainly, but I doubt it will.

Is there a qualitative difference between the products? certainly.
Will it pay for itself over 20 years? In my situation, I highly doubt it.
Your situation? maybe.

-nosualc

ps - ETA - as this is a garage forum, I assumed we were all talking about garages. re-reading the OP, I see he was asking for opinions for garage and homes.

 

[PAToyota]

Nobody, including the guy trying to sell it to me, was able to quantify this for me. For the sake of argument, lets say that foam will save me 20% (I think this generous).

Actually, from the studies that I've been seeing I'd say the opposite. MOST of the heat loss in a lot of cases is actually from infiltration. Now Icynene is not the answer for all cases as a certain amount of this is going to be around doors and windows - particularly an issue with a garage/shop and garage doors and such.

I'd certainly use Icynene on a house if I was doing it from scratch - actually WILL be using Icynene in my second floor remodel. But whether it is worth the cost in a shop where other infiltration and the actual opening of a garage door is going to let out more heat than would ever escape through the walls... That is another matter... I'd likely use it in my upstairs shop (woodworking) because the temperature is more constant and I'm NOT opening large doors into that space on a regular basis...

 

[carguy123]

I am trying to get my new home foamed as we speak. I had to fight the foam people to get them to consider a closed attic and then found that none of the AC people would warranty their systems in that environment (I haven't a clue why, but EVERY company refused and I talked to Carrier and Trane direct) so I changed to vented soffits. The final argument that changed my mind was the $6,000+ additional costs in air handlers and smart vents associated with a closed attic.

But now that it's time to spray the foam none of the foam companies want to do a vented attic. I can't win for losing!

It gets worse because I didn't install the decking with the heat barrier, because you aren't supposed to do that with foam, so if I change insulations I will have lost part of my energy efficiency package.

My next door neighbor has the vented attic with the foam and loves it.

I would love to find the foam for $1.50 a foor or even $2.00 a foot, but it ain't happening around here. I had not considered the foam sheets under the roof line but I did use 1" foam sheets around the whole house over the OSB and Tyvek. I also had forgotten about the issue with foam and roof shingles. Thanx for the reminder.

I have looked at Demilac and Icynene both and only find the hype is different, but Demilac is local so I'll probably go with them.

Another issue was getting the AC people to size for "non traditional" insulations. I finally found out that all the models they use for heat loads only use 4 levels of traditional insulation and sealing levels. Once I got them to use the MORE OPTIONS button it dropped my AC load by 3-4 tons.

 

[carguy123]

I spent today talking to several of the foam venders and it caused one word in your original post to jump out at me. You said SOFT foam.

You do realize that the soft foam has a much lower R value than does the rigid foam do you not?

It is a better sound insulator because it is soft but is much less effective at stopping heat penetration. But it is cheaper.

 

[trovato]

One thing I do sometimes is add an outlet or a network cable or something else that I hadn't thought about before. Doing this on an outside wall with fiberglass batts is a pain, but it's doable. With foam, is it pretty much impossible?

 

[PAToyota]

If doing the foam, I'd put in a few empty conduits with pull strings for precisely that reason.

 

[trovato]

If doing the foam, I'd put in a few empty conduits with pull strings for precisely that reason.

If I knew ahead of time where I might want to run wires, that would be fine. It's the stuff I never thought of that causes the problem. Things like running the wire for the invisible dog fence. Or coax for a TV in the corner of the garage.

 

[D-Cal]

If it's the type of run where you can poke a hole to run the wire, I doubt it would be an issue. But if you have to cut drywall to run it, what's the difference? Cut a channel in the foam, install the wire, foam over it again.

 

[trovato]

I'm talking about the kind of thing where I drill a hole in the attic and then fish a wire to a box in the wall below. That's around six or seven feet. I don't think you can do that through foam, right?

 

[D-Cal]

Depends on whether you're willing to remove the drywall or not. Easy if you are, hard if you're not. Or if you have plaster walls... You might be able to push a rod/snake down through the foam, I don't know.

For the number of times you're going to want to do that, I doubt it would be a big deal.

 

[carguy123]

All the foam people say you can fish a foam wall, but all the plumbers and electricians I have talked to have said they wouldn't do it so you'd be stuck doing it yourself.

I spent today with foam installers, again, and all of them said the soft foam is OPEN cell. I have been warned repeatedly not to use the open cell due to it's affinity for water. It's supposedly like a sponge. It picks it up and doesn't let it go very easily.

It appears that I will do my house in cellulose and add a 2" rigid foam heat barrier on the underside of the decking. The garage office/bedroom and bathroom will get a 2" coating of rigid foam and I will save the rest of the shop for a DIY Versi-foam insulate.

I need the bedroom and bath done NOW since I will be living in the shop at the end of the month while I finish building the house.

 

[Gregdoo]

At a recent home show, I saw an interesting variation regarding foam. They spray a thin coat of foam (less than 1") to get the low air infiltration qualities (at a much reduced cost compared to a full foam fill) and fill the rest of the space with cellulose or fiberglass to get the cheap insulating qualities. This would also allow you to fish future electrical needs much easier.

 

[carguy123]

Placebo effect.

There is so little foam that you get only "mental benefits"

I have talked to several installers and manufacturers about this. Unless you are using rigid foam and put over an inch then it's not really worth the cost. You can seal your house much cheaper many other ways.

 

[Kent in KC]

I sprayed Icynene on the bottom sides of my roof sheathing in my new house and garage, as well as the exterior walls. I considered cellulose, which is cheaper, but opted for Icynene because it seals against infiltration better and won't be ruined if it gets wet (like a roof leak). Also, it is the best insulation/sealer/moisture barrier/sound deadener available without going to NASA. I reasearched it pretty hard and see no 'disadvantages' or problems with Icynene other than the cost. You get what you pay for. Yesterday, it was windy and in the upper 70's but in my (as yet) unheated, uncooled new house it was 50.

 

[gcan]

Kent - did you do it or have it done? can this be a DIY project?

 

[Fullback66]

Gregdoo,
Was it tigerfoam? It looks like you put mat insulation over tigerfoam.

http://www.tigerfoam.com/products.php

fb66

 

[icnsltmfg]

Would there be a big difference if you were just going to do a crawl space where there is NO insulation at all? I am looking at the fiberglass and the spray foam type....

 

[Skinny_Blinky]

Would there be a big difference if you were just going to do a crawl space where there is NO insulation at all? I am looking at the fiberglass and the spray foam type....

That was my case specificlly when I looked into this product. It makes a world of difference, to the good.

I bought a poorly insulated house back when. I had a foundation wall, flooring above a crawl space, and the area under the main floor (in an unfinished basement) where the floor trusses are installed, all sprayed with Icynene. Pleased as punch and the return on the investment has been to my satisfaction. First and foremost it insulated the house in a much improved manner, then the room over the crawl space was like a new sound booth. Much quiter and warmer to live in. I noticed this immediately when I walked into the room the day it was completed.

This product is not so much as an insulator (as in R Factor) as it is a moisture control / air exchange product, by its chemical composition, although it refers to the Resistance-rating system to express it's results.

I am very pleased with Icynene.

 

[G-force]

I'm considering having a bid to fill our craw space and barn with rigid foam next summer. Not so much for the insulating factor (although it's a plus) Our main concern is that we cannot keep rodents and things from tearing apart and infesting our current insulation. We live out in the country and have alot of random wildlife living with us. The insulation under our house currently is completely ripped to shreds and gets taken other places to be made into nice little cozy beds and nests. As far as our barn goes, my workshop is attached to it and foad would be a good way I think to seal it up from critters, although at this point I think it might be too late. At least my shop might just need to be reframed and sheeted. It's and old pole barn type structure.

So does rigid foam usually run $1.50-$2.00 per sq. ft.?

 

[GSSFC]

At a recent home show, I saw an interesting variation regarding foam. They spray a thin coat of foam (less than 1") to get the low air infiltration qualities (at a much reduced cost compared to a full foam fill) and fill the rest of the space with cellulose or fiberglass to get the cheap insulating qualities. This would also allow you to fish future electrical needs much easier.

These operations are not real spray foam installers. They use products called froth packs, often come in boxes or propane like tanks. The nozzles looks similar to epoxy injectors. They have very little propellant. They install 1/2" to 1" and claim it as closed cell foam. The problem is the 2 components need to be heated and pressurize to atomize and make a good mix, this isn't possible with the froth packs. They charge a premium for these units and they do not have the same finished product. The real stuff comes in 55 gallon drums and is heated and pressurize utilizing expensive equipment that most joe carpenters don't have.

Tim

 

[mstbone67a]

So your saying the spray foam in the small tanks wont expand like "greatstuff" cans.. I think they will expand just the same..

 

[ddrewyor]

Check into a product called P2000. It's foam board that insulates as a system to stop the convection, conduction, and radiant energy. Air infiltration is stopped as it is taped or seamed at each interface. I used it in my garage on my ceilings and the upper 6' feet of my 10' walls. The board is coated on one side with something that resembles a very tough Tyvek that can be power-washed and the backside is foil. I live in Michigan and the furnace rarely runs once it gets up to working temp (58deg) even when it is near zero outside. I have a 30' x 40' Gambrel roof barn with an upstairs that is not insulated. The bonus is that because it is so light, I can put heavier stuff in the attic. I don't know if the numbers they give for R value are correct as they are almost unbelievable, but my garage does not take much to heat it and I still have about 20' of wall to cover. I guess once I got to the comfortable stage, I slowed down on it! http://www.p2insulation.com

Dave
________
*** TUBE

 

[Junkman]

Re: Icynene soft foam spray insulation

I'm considering having a bid to fill our craw space and barn with rigid foam next summer. Not so much for the insulating factor (although it's a plus) Our main concern is that we cannot keep rodents and things from tearing apart and infesting our current insulation. We live out in the country and have a lot of random wildlife living with us. The insulation under our house currently is completely ripped to shreds and gets taken other places to be made into nice little cozy beds and nests. As far as our barn goes, my workshop is attached to it and foam would be a good way I think to seal it up from critters, although at this point I think it might be too late. At least my shop might just need to be re-framed and sheeted. It's and old pole barn type structure.

So does rigid foam usually run $1.50-$2.00 per sq. ft.?

I wouldn't bet on this to keep rodents out. Rodents will chew their way through almost anything other than heavy steel. I remember seeing an experiment where rats were fed food in a "room", and then the room was sealed with various types of products from plastic, wood, aluminum, and steel. The only one that they didn't get through was the steel. When rodents are determined, they will chew or claw their way to get where they want to go. You will need a good rodent control program if you want to really get rid of them. I have mice in my garage, and they are going through 2 packs of rodent poison every night. Seems that they must be storing it somewhere. If I stop putting it out, then I can hear them in the walls of the house at night. If I continue to feed them, then they go outside and die. My mistake was that I didn't get after them soon enough. Had I kept up on my poison baits all summer, then I would have knocked down the population. I also live in the woods, so it is an on going problem. I think that I need a cat, but my neighbor that has 2 indoor cats, came home to find a mouse eating out of the cats food bowl, and the cats just looking at it from a distance. Only after he walked into the kitchen, did they go after it.

 

[Kevin54]

I'm talking about the kind of thing where I drill a hole in the attic and then fish a wire to a box in the wall below. That's around six or seven feet. I don't think you can do that through foam, right?

Plan ahead with something like a sheet of wainscoting (sp) that can easily be removed, or some type of panel that can be removed, and you can also run a piece of PVC conduit from top to bottom for future wire runs.

 

[IHI]

Check into a product called P2000. It's foam board that insulates as a system to stop the convection, conduction, and radiant energy. Air infiltration is stopped as it is taped or seamed at each interface. I used it in my garage on my ceilings and the upper 6' feet of my 10' walls. The board is coated on one side with something that resembles a very tough Tyvek that can be power-washed and the backside is foil. I live in Michigan and the furnace rarely runs once it gets up to working temp (58deg) even when it is near zero outside. I have a 30' x 40' Gambrel roof barn with an upstairs that is not insulated. The bonus is that because it is so light, I can put heavier stuff in the attic. I don't know if the numbers they give for R value are correct as they are almost unbelievable, but my garage does not take much to heat it and I still have about 20' of wall to cover. I guess once I got to the comfortable stage, I slowed down on it! http://www.p2insulation.com

Dave

I like how it's a great system, but then when you conside the thousands of holes that will be blown through it for exterior siding application, just how good is it then?? Better than nothing granted, but there has just been faaaar to many new and improved products on the market in the past 10 years that are starting to fail and not work right, so i always tell my clients before you get all gung ho about this new product, why dont you wait so your not hte guinea pig and chancing your money plus a redo if it fails.

Kinda like felt paper on a roof....in the BIG picture, what is the point, what is is really doing? i can tell you if you install your roof product correctly, the felt is doing zero, zip, zilch, nada and is mainly used to protect the deck from elements prior to shingle material installation, because once again, realistically think about the thousands of holes your blowing through the felt when install shingle materials, felt paper does'nt self mend so once you penetrate, it's a hole-period. Why do roof still leak if the shingle has an area that's bad...because shingles are allowing it to leak, not the felt paper

 

[kbs2244]

I just think that if the foam was a good their sales people say it is, then the high end builders would be using it.

Current ‘standard practice” is 2x6 studs with well installed house wrap on the outside. (That means taped seams, over lapped and taped with the storm flashing around doors and windows, etc.) This stops the “infiltration” problem. Then 6 inch bats in the stud space.

Expanding foam in the rough carpentry holes around the doors, windows and electrical boxes on the inside as a “belts and suspenders” thing.

I can see the spray on in the case of sealing up an existing and leaky building. But it is a way over priced thing for new construction.

 

[GSSFC]

I just think that if the foam was a good their sales people say it is, then the high end builders would be using it.

Every contractor I know has been busy straight out for the last two years. Foam is on the rise. You just can't see it, so no one talks about it. I have several "high-end" builders who will only use foam. Unless you live in a foamed home you can't knock it (and if you lived in a foam home, you wouldn't knock it).


Tim

 

[kbs2244]

I did live in a 3600 SF lake front 100 year old home that after a few years we insulated with the soft stuff squirted into the wall cavities.
It was better than no insulation.

 

[GSSFC]

I did live in a 3600 SF lake front 100 year old home that after a few years we insulated with the soft stuff squirted into the wall cavities.
It was better than no insulation.

That stuff isn't the same stuff. I agree with your assessment.

Tim

 

[Colonial Cobra]

Go for it. It's well worth the money.

Last year we added a 480 sqft game room onto the house, and at the same time ripped all of the old siding and sheeting from the outside of the house. Removed all of the fiberglass insulation and applied the foam. The house was then sheeted in plywood and new windows installed. Even with the additional footage the heating and cooling costs are averaging 20% lower than before. The house is also much quieter, with almost no outside noise noticeable from inside.

Were currently adding onto the garage and I'm using it there also.

You will recover the extra cost of the spray foam in no time.

Brad

 

[IHI]

Go for it. It's well worth the money.

Last year we added a 480 sqft game room onto the house, and at the same time ripped all of the old siding and sheeting from the outside of the house. Removed all of the fiberglass insulation and applied the foam. The house was then sheeted in plywood and new windows installed. Even with the additional footage the heating and cooling costs are averaging 20% lower than before. The house is also much quieter, with almost no outside noise noticeable from inside.

Were currently adding onto the garage and I'm using it there also.

You will recover the extra cost of the spray foam in no time.

Brad

I'm not taking away anything from the spray foam, but i can guaruntee 90% of the sound deadening was from the new windows. This is the first and biggest thing every customer we install new windows for notices. But like i said, i'm not taking anything away from the spray foam since i know first hand the energy savings that are associated with this system...HUGE!!