ID this Jack?

[toolslinger]

So, after killing a couple modern POS service jacks with pretty infrequent use, I started looking for something older that was made to last... Its been a slow chase that I've had to put aside occasionally, but I got one last weekend...

I went to an auction that indicated tons of Snap-On tools. Based on the other stuff there, the guy must have been a mechanic for Mac Trucks, and yea, just about everything there was Snap-On. So I knew the guy was going to have a good jack...

Out it came, and it's an Allstate... Sold by Sears... Looked good, and worked, so I took it home for $65... Being a Sears unit, I knew they didn't make it, but I haven't been able to place who built it for them so far.

So, here's what I've got...

The Sears Model # is 728.101
728 is the manufacturer designation, but I haven't found out who 728 is yet...

Thoughts?

Cheers,
-Tim

 

[FoMoCoPower]

Hein Werner

 

[toolslinger]

HW was suggested in another tool forum I frequent... So far I haven't managed to match it to one of their models... The three things that have conflicted so far are the lack of the wavey plate in the back under the handle, and the flip up plate on mine to access the pump, plus the profile of the side plates is different.

Not sayin' it isn't a HW, just that I haven't seen one in my searching that is an exact match...

-Tim

 

[Hiball]

Hmmmm.. Picture of the hydraulic unit, release? I'm on my cell so I'll look closer when I get home.

 

[toolslinger]

I'll get a photo tomorrow of that. It is a universal joint connection.

 

[Hiball]

I'll get a photo tomorrow of that. It is a universal joint connection.

Yeah, I can see that in the picture. Snap a picture of the pump and underside if you could. I have a inkling..

 

[toolslinger]

Ok... Lets try these...

While I obviously haven't cleaned it up yet, I also checked, and haven't found a casting number on the few cast parts, so no help there...

 

[toolslinger]

Bump.

Still hopeful on an ID...

-Tim

 

[Berg]

post #175 might help- looks similar

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18055&page=9

Hein warner IMO

 

[toolslinger]

I'm just not convinced of Hein Warner...

• The geometry of the pump is wrong, with the H-W being vertical and this being about 45 deg back.
• The side plates aren't cut at the rear like H-W.
• The handle on this is at the rear rather than inset on H-W
• The release is a universal, rather than meshed gears on H-W.
• The Allstate has that flip up lid over the pump for access, H-W does not.
• The H-W has that corrugated plate between the rear wheels, while this does not. (though that could have gone missing over time I suppose)

I'll give you that the twin springs along the cylinder do look like the H-W's, and the cast lift plate is round...

-Tim

 

[toolslinger]

hmmm... The side plates are more like a Norco... Norco has the round plate too... So far, not right on the rest, and the rear wheel brackets aren't right either...

This may drive me nuts...

 

[Hiball]

hmmm... The side plates are more like a Norco... Norco has the round plate too... So far, not right on the rest, and the rear wheel brackets aren't right either...

This may drive me nuts...

Sorry for not getting back to you, I do in fact believe it to be Norco derived. Ive sent some pictures off to a business associate of mine to confirm and i will follow up if he comes up with anything different.

 

[toolslinger]

Thanks so much.

Haven't put any weight on it yet except a welder I had to replace casters on today... Seemed to hold that couple hundred pounds happily, but I need to look at the rear brakes on my 2500 Ram this weekend, so I'll know then if it will hold with weight... Probably just float it 1/4" over the jack stands to see if it'll maintain while messing around... We shall see...

-Tim

 

[toolslinger]

So, I'm dragging this thread out of its grave... As much to see if anyone has run across an ID on one of these...

I had to do some work on my truck last weekend, and not only was this jack not up to the task, but neither was my smaller Walker (which I didn't expect to be really. So I was stuck with a 20 ton bottle jack that took forever... When I was done for the day, I came in, and ordered a new AC Hydraulics unit, so I shouldn't have an issue after this Thursday...

However... Since I now don't need this jack, I'm less worried about potentially wrecking it... I had taken it to a number of hydraulic shops around here a couple years ago, and none of them would touch it. I'd love to find someone I could send it to, but if not, then I'll take a shot at getting it apart myself...

I've got some more photos of just the power unit now that I pulled it out...

What I find strange is the manufacturer didn't provide a way to grab the cylinder end for removal/service.

Down at the joint of the cylinder and the pump block it appears there is a seal/o-ring visible.

 

[Provincial]

"Non-Servicable" cylinder design. Common for lower end products.

You will have to grab the cylinder cap with a large pipe wrench to unscrew it. The cap really only holds the resevoir tube in place (including the seals) concentric to the ram cylinder, and keeps the piston/rod from coming all the way out at the end of the stroke. It should not be torqued down very tight.

Are you sure that there isn't a hole on the edge of the cylinder cap where they assembled it with a pin spanner?

 

[Hiball]

Are you sure that there isn't a hole on the edge of the cylinder cap where they assembled it with a pin spanner?

I'm going to guess it does, Not sure I have ever seen a Floor Jack tank nut without some sort of fastening design. In the Picture he has the nose elevated, seemingly balancing on a screwdriver, maybe the screwdriver is in the spanner hole.

 

[toolslinger]

Yea, there are no spanner holes unfortunately. The edge of the cap isn't even a machine finish, just the rough casting. Pipe wrench is likely to be the way I have to go, which I hate just due to the teeth digging in, but the jack is no good the way it is now, so unless a museum calls me wanting it, I might as well...

 

[Hiball]

I'm going to guess it does, Not sure I have ever seen a Floor Jack tank nut without some sort of fastening design. In the Picture he has the nose elevated, seemingly balancing on a screwdriver, maybe the screwdriver is in the spanner hole.

Well scratch that idea...

 

[toolslinger]

The pump is apart!

I had a slow day at work today, so I grabbed a 3' pipe wrench, and headed home to either open, or destroy the power unit...

Having never done one before I have no idea if this is normal... The end cap of the unit is actually just threaded on to the end of the cylinder. It seals around the rod with an o-ring, and then to the tank with another o-ring. The back of the tank then seals to the pump block (for lack of a better phrase) by pressing in to another o-ring. There were no leaks at those 3 points, so I guess it isn't an issue...

The release came out next. No big deal on this. There is a ball in the bottom, then what I'd consider packing, a packing nut, and then the piece the threads down on to the ball to lock. The jack tended to bleed down, so this is one of the areas I'll really be looking at.
I didn't try to pull the packing as it wasn't leaking there, and I think I will be able to just snug that up a bit if needed. No idea if I'd be able to find that piece..

The real pain was getting the plug out that holds the springs, and balls in that run to and from the pump. They're held by a 1/4" pipe plug that was installed, and then ground flush with the end of the block. It is an allen head plug, but it wasn't having any part of moving with a hex key... I was able to drive a T-45 torx 3/8" drive socket in to it, and with a 1/2" breaker bar, and a 16" adjustable wrench clamped to the torx, it did finally break free. I could probably reuse that piece, but I'll look for a high pressure replacement.

So out came the springs and balls.

Pump was next... It just threads out of the block easily. Getting it apart was another story. The head of the pump cylinder has a plate pined to it, and then the pin was mashed over. I filed that, and started driving it out. Stopped before things launched, and compressed the spring with a couple zip ties. Then the rest came out pretty easily. Looks like a leather cup, and backer.

I then pulled the ram out. It appears to be in good shape. Leather cup, and backer. There is some crud in the cylinder I'll have to swab out carefully, but otherwise it looks good.

Finally I pulled the cap off the pressure relief. I'm hesitant to disturb it as I have no way to re-calibrate it. If I get it all rebuilt, and it still can't lift the front of my truck, then I'll have to revisit this. Looks like just a flat head screwdriver to adjust it... Hopefully there isn't any crud in there. I'm doing everything I can to flush things out so I don't get hosed by a spec of old seal...

Why they didn't put a little bigger oil fill hole on this thing I'll never know... Not much more than a 1/4" hole to fill the jack...

Hiball gave me a lead on a kit for this jack. I haven't called yet as I wanted to see if I could get in to things before ordering. If I have time tomorrow, I'll see what is available. If not, at least I can take the parts someplace and just get them to match the cups, and o-rings.

I was sort of hoping for a smoking gun in terms of why the jack isn't working properly... Really the leather cups look decent. The o-rings weren't leaking... Could have been a spec of something on a ball, or the pressure relief... No idea, but I'll replace what I can, and see what there is to see. I still think the jack has too much character to just scrap out if I can manage to save it.

-Tim

 

[toolslinger]

Called Hydraulic Parts Supply today, and amazingly they list a kit for the jack. More amazingly, they had one in stock. Unfortunately Steve wasn't available when I called to find out about a breakout, or if he knew who actually made it... Regardless, the kit should begin making its way to me some time today. If all goes well, some time next week, perhaps I can put it back together...

On the plus side, my AC Hydraulics unit came in today... So whatever happens with my Allstate, at least I can get back to work on the vehicles without have to pump forever on an over-sized bottle jack...

 

[Smiliesafari]

This looks very much like an early Blackhawk SJ 2. I have two from the 70's.

 

[Hiball]

This looks very much like an early Blackhawk SJ 2. I have two from the 70's.

Definitely not a SJ2.

 

[toolslinger]

Out of curiosity, and also the desire to only pull this thing apart once... I decided to pull the relief valve this morning. I'm surprised that it only took about 5/8 of a turn before the spring was bottomed out, but then there doesn't need to be that much movement going on there... So out came the screw, spring, and ball. I flushed out the port with some brake cleaner, and then a shot of ether.

At this point I thought I should really look at the ball seats as best I can. I'm almost positive the release valve ball has been over seated. I'm leaning toward thinking the same on that relief. Both seats look a bit bigger than I imagine they should be.

So I measured the balls, and just ordered some seat laps. I'll give them a twirl, and hopefully when it all goes back together, everything will seat nicely.

While I was out there, I took a file to sharp edges and burrs I found on a variety of components. No reason to start bleeding on things when I'm handling the pieces. Naturally I didn't touch any sealing surfaces.

 

[toolslinger]

And.... It's done!
Seat lapps took a while to come in, but they appeared yesterday. With the weather so nice, and nothing to do at work, I took the day off.
Hydraulic Parts Supply had indicated they had a kit for this jack. So I had ordered that. Their listing indicates it is a 1.5 ton, and the plate on mine clearly indicates 2 ton, so I was worried there might be some issues.
The only really difference in the kit as far as I could tell was one of the balls was smaller that what I had. I tried the smaller one in both places it might be intended for, and it didn't really look right in either, so I stuck with the existing ball sizes. I had also purchased an endoscope to help me see the seats a bit better.
After lapping all 4 ball seats, I reassembled everything. Hardest part was getting the ram back in the cylinder. Most annoying was getting the pipe plug to seal in the side.
At any rate, it is back together, and has already been put to work.
It probably weighs about 40-50% more than my new AC Hydraulics jack, and ended up being a better fit for lifting the back end of my truck today due to the AC's shorter handle. I suspect the AC will be better working from the sides since my garage is a bit narrow...
We still don't know who made it, but at this point it doesn't really matter. Hopefully it will keep performing for many more years...

 

[ajerome]

I just inherited the identical floor-jack. The pump was siezed solid, due to the disinigration of the packing. I need to find a source to replace the packing:

toolslinger(Tim) indicated "Called Hydraulic Parts Supply today, and amazingly they list a kit for the jack.". Any chance your source is still available? If so, would you be willing to share? If not, anybody have any ideas?

I would like to get a parts list for the 728.101... Perhaps tracking down the packing by a part number might be easier?

-adam

 

[toolslinger]

Adam
Just upthread in Hiball's signature is the phone number for Hydraulics Parts Supply.
Get the whole kit, forget about just getting the pump parts. When I called looking for a break-out, the person who would have known wasn't there, so I didn't bother after ordering the kit. You really want to do everything, and just be done with it. My jack is fabulous now, and gets pulled out just as much as my brand new AC Hydraulics unit.
Good luck!

 

[Waggoner72]

Can y'all ID one more jack? This one is for sale local for $50.

 

[Waggoner72]

Anyone? Anyone? Bueler?

 

[CRTDI]

S-17

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78014