Ideas to keep pipes from freezing during construction.

[tlmartin84]

Ran the line from my well to my building back in summer. Ran it under the slab and turned it up into a future wall.

The end is stubbed out with a shutoff valve and 3 port pex manifold.

I had planned to have the building up this fall and sealed off. It is now looking like that is not going to happen. So now I have to figure out how to keep this pipe from freezing during the winter.

No power to plug electric tape into. I have been tossing around wrapping it with pipe insulation, setting it in a "box" built of square hay bales and stuffed with excess fiberglass insulation.

2nd option is to dig the line back up and install a shutoff valve. This is a last resort as it to will provide a chance of freezing at the ground opening.

It should have the walls up and roof on, and temps dipped here to -10F to -20F.

Thoughts, ideas?

 

[theoldwizard1]

... 2nd option is to dig the line back up and install a shutoff valve. This is a last resort as it to will provide a chance of freezing at the ground opening.

It should have the walls up and roof on, and temps dipped here to -10F to -20F.

That is your ONLY CHOICE at those temps !

I hope your pip from the well is down below the frost line (36-48"). Form an box around your hole (use pressure treated 2by) and then pack the hole with insulation before putting a lid on it.

Use a shutoff with drain.

 

[Architorture]

Pardon my ignorance...but if there is no power on site how did the water get in the pipe and why can't you just drain it until you have the building up?

 

[stingry]

That is your ONLY CHOICE at those temps !

I hope your pip from the well is down below the frost line (36-48"). Form an box around your hole (use pressure treated 2by) and then pack the hole with insulation before putting a lid on it.

Use a shutoff with drain.

Instead of this valve, use a stop and waste valve, it will automatically drain down the piping from it to your garage. You can bury it and use a length of PVC pipe for a shut off rod to turn the valve on and off.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tlmartin84]

Pardon my ignorance...but if there is no power on site how did the water get in the pipe and why can't you just drain it until you have the building up?

It tee's off of the line that feeds my house from my well. Pipe is pressurized through the tank at my house. It is several hundred feet away from my house. I have been using a generator to build until I get my second service setup next spring.

 

[Professur]

An old trick we up here in the north use when the temp drops below what even our normal protections can deal with is to leave the tap trickle. Running water doesn't freeze. Not a long term solution, but if you only have limited freezing periods, it's a cheap out.

 

[rancherbill]

Two random thoughts.

Blow the water out of the line like they do with underground irrigation systems,

or,

Bury it. If you are supposed to have 2'(?) dirt cover put 3 or 4' of loose dirt on top of it. Put plywood/ debris over top of it to provide protection/ marker when digging up next year,

 

[HoosierMark]

Put a shut off in by the T. Do like the city water lines are here, put a shut off in the line with an access pipe to the surface. Then you can shut it off with a simple pipe with a slot cut in from the surface. The pipe is only a 3-4 inch pipe from below the frost line to the surface with a cap on it and it stays warm enough so it does not freeze. The ground should be soft and easy to dig up. If you ever have a leak, you can simply shut the water off and isolate it. You can also shut the water off in the building if you do not want to heat it or are afraid it might freeze for whatever reason.

 

[StingRay]

You are going to need one helluva big box to keep that from freezing. You will need to come quite a few feet in each direction to trap the grounds heat under the area and keep it from freezing down. It's not just the piece above ground you need to worry about. Is the slab insulated?

You could also buy a cheap roll of 1/2" poly pipe and return it to the well. You could then let the water flow in the loop. It would cost you some power for sure though.

Take a long piece of threaded rod say a 6 or 8 footer. Cut with a hole saw a rubber plug from a piece of heavy rubber, say 3/4", the same dia as the inside of your pipe. Drill a hole in the plug just the same size as the rod. Slip the plug over the rod with a washer on each side and nut the end with a locking nut. Slip a piece of tube over the other end of the rod almost as long as the balance of the rod and then then a nut and washer at the far end. You can then take the plug end and slip it down the pipe. Hold the tube/sleeve with vise grips or such and tighten the nut on the top end. It will squish the rubber and increase it's diameter so that it plugs the hole down under ground like a boat transom plug. If there is water above the plug take some plastic 1/4" air line and slip it down the pipe. Use a suction device to **** the water out or blow it out with compressed air. Air will leave quite a bit behind. Suction will get it all.
It's tough to know exact dimensions for rod and pipe dia as I've never tried anything that long but it works to make plugs for shorter stuff. Just extend it. How much curvature you have as the pipe changes from horizontal to vertical will have some bearing on how or whether this would work too. Length of rod and how far down you need to get will depend on your frost depth there and how far above the ground your pipe terminates.

Putting a curb stop at the tee junction is probably the best choice in the long run. As already suggested it allows you to deal with unforeseen circumstances.

How deep is your frost level there? If it's 4 feet or less you could dig to that with a shovel. I'm not saying it's easy though.

 

[larry_g]

An old trick we up here in the north use when the temp drops below what even our normal protections can deal with is to leave the tap trickle. Running water doesn't freeze. Not a long term solution, but if you only have limited freezing periods, it's a cheap out.

We use the running water solution here to keep taps open. We usually only have a few days of freezing weather to worry about so the solution works for us. I also would suggest that you add a shutoff for the building at the tee. It makes for quick shutoff in the case of failure somewhere down the line.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[tlmartin84]

Pipe is only 20" below ground. It will be easy to dig. The guy that put my well in actually placed it shallower than I would have liked (didn't know this until I went to Tee off of it for my building). That is my concern with placing a valve in an open pipe, even if stuffed with insulation as frost line here is 30". HAve not had any issues in 7 years though.

 

[SteveCh]

I live in a place that gets and stays very cold for months. Only idea that almost guarantees success is the curb stop at the T that's been mentioned. A little bit of work to dig down and cut the pipe, but very well worth it. It is then fixed for good. Long as you remember to cut off the water and let the pipe drain though the curb stop.....

If you are able to do this yourself, it is not too expensive. Even if you pay someone, the digging should be really easy or you could do the actual digging part in advance. I wouldn't put it off. If you get an early bad freeze, you might be digging up and replacing a lot of line.

 

[sublimate]

Does the underground pipe slope downwards from the stub to the Tee?

You could put a schrader tire valve (a quick-release would also work, but they seem to leak more) on the end of the stub and use an air compressor to put air into it which will push the water back down to the Tee. You should be able to push all the water out of the stub and if it slopes down towards the Tee you may be able to push most of it out of the whole run.

You'll probably want to refill it with air periodically and before a cold spell.

Whether this actually works to keep it from freezing...

 

[tlmartin84]

The line at the Tee is up hill. There is actually a dip in the line as it runs under my slab and then turns up through a foundation wall. It is 3' deep where it turns straight up through the wall.

That end is the only place I worry about freeze. If I place the shutoff valve I can blow out the line. This is a one time deal. Next winter everything will be enclosed, in use, insulated and heated.

Im not sure how much thought you guys put into my original plan but it seems the gernal consensus is against it.

You guys questioned the "size" of the box.

Like I said earlier, it is square bales. It would be about 12 bales, roughly 6x6 perimeter, and 2' tall. The entire cavity would be stuffed with fiberglass insulation that would be dry.


I might just undo the T, tape the line off for the winter and cap the the Tee. Bury it and reopen it in the spring. I am just still not convinced a shutoff valve 20" below grade even in a tube or other structure is a good idea.

 

[stingry]

Pipe is only 20" below ground. It will be easy to dig. The guy that put my well in actually placed it shallower than I would have liked (didn't know this until I went to Tee off of it for my building). That is my concern with placing a valve in an open pipe, even if stuffed with insulation as frost line here is 30". HAve not had any issues in 7 years though.

If your frost line is 30" and the pipe is only buried 20", I would be concerned about the pipe freezing underground!

 

[tlmartin84]

Code is 30", I have yet to excavate anything frosted yet below 18" (that has good sod on it). I am not a fan of it......

I figure if I ever have issues I will have a legitimate complaint against the installer.

 

[sublimate]

It tee's off of the line that feeds my house from my well. Pipe is pressurized through the tank at my house. It is several hundred feet away from my house. I have been using a generator to build until I get my second service setup next spring.

Personally, if it was me, I'd buy a couple of these and run heat tape:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-100-ft-16-3-Extension-Cord-HD-277-525/100650619

You could do 300' for under $50. The current draw from heat tape is so low (1-2 amps) the length shouldn't be an issue.

 

[AZ Pete]

If code is 30" I would have the installer out there , doing whatever it took to meet code. You might get lucky for a number of years then have a problem. Then try to get him back. You paid him to do a job, he should have done it right.

 

[HoosierMark]

while you may have not found the frost line below 18" yet, it is like a flood level. It probably will be cold enough sooner or later to freeze it. Plus if you ever sell the property, there may be a question if everyhthing was built to code. Technically you must answer no to that question due to not installing the line to code requirements. Maybe not a big deal but ... Sounds like you have a complaint against the installer now. Did you pay to have it done legally and correctly or not? Why wait until there is a freezing problem? You already have a problem, your line does not meet code.

 

[tlmartin84]

Who in their right mind would dig up a line that has been perfectly fine for 8 years?
Last year was one of our coldest winters on record, I think the line will be just fine.


Besides that, we are getting off topic here. Question is concerning the stub up out of the slab. I think I have enough info to go on, thanks for the replies.

 

[csp]

Are we still talking about the line that was run last summer?

Where did this talk of 8 years come from?

 

[Lippyp]

We used to have problems with the heating oil from our steel tank waxing up and getting blocked at the outlet. My dad built an insulated box that sat around it and put an old kerosene hurricen lamp in there, for safety he'd replaced the glass with an old baked bean can with both ends cut off. It worked in even the coldest weather we have in the UK. That could be an option if its for short periods of time.