If buying AMERICAN matters...

[M6erfan]

People get hung up on COO but some companies get a pass. I laugh cause every Fluke multimeter is made in China. Some are assembled in the USA but that's it.

They get a pass for some reason.

Funny. I have a 2 multimeters, one made in China, one made in Japan. Pretty sure my next one will be a BK Precision, made in Taiwan.

Guess that makes me a xenophily.

 

[tamaraw]

xenophobia is a dislike or prejudice against people from other countries. If someone is a xenophobe, they would be prejudiced against the Japanese and the Chinese.

In your example, on asian country is praised, another asian country derided. A USA based xenophobe would dislike both countries, because they're both outside the US. Otherwise a different criteria is being used to differentiate Japanese and Chinese products in this example. Thus xenophobia cannot be the cause, as xenophobia should garner the same reaction to both countries.

Nobody ever said that bigotry had to be logical or consistent.

 

[zendriver]

IDK, they're both Asian too. And they're relatively close to each other on a map.

The COO thing comes down to 1st world vs 3rd and labor costs. Generally speaking, nobody is paying Swiss labor costs to build junk. It costs too much to pay the labor and then build cheap ****. You CAN build quality in the 3rd world, or build junk. But because the latter exists, it pollutes the view of the former made by 3rd world countries.



Unrelated note - 1st world was capitalist, 3rd world was undeveloped/unaffiliated.... is China the last remaining major "second world" country?

Agree, but You are speaking in practical terms, which is not what this thread is about, at all..

I feel sorry for American companies, who have to wade through the COO nightmare. They just want to make a profit in a very competitive world, but are forced to coddle many who may not even buy their products, regardless.

FWIW I find it hard to believe any fluke instrument, does not contain at least some imported IC components.

 

[tamaraw]

Unrelated note - 1st world was capitalist, 3rd world was undeveloped/unaffiliated.... is China the last remaining major "second world" country?

North Korea and Cuba maybe?

 

[BrandonV]

Funny. I have a 2 multimeters, one made in China, one made in Japan. Pretty sure my next one will be a BK Precision, made in Taiwan.

Guess that makes me a xenophily.

That Japanese one better be a Hioki!

 

[VolvoRyan]

The irony, of course, is that even if you had 100% conceived and made in USA automotive tools, you'd be using it on stuff that isn't completely USA made, and very probably installing parts from overseas as well.

Heck, western Ohio seems to make more stuff for Honda and Toyota than it does for the "Big Three".

-Ryan

 

[DieselSaves]

I’ve been left in the cold by every company I’ve supported, tools, clothing, parts, all of them. In my youth, I was adamant about USA only. After that, ABC, now, ****** it. Nothing lasts long enough for it to matter, including the money I have to spend.

 

[M6erfan]

That Japanese one better be a Hioki!

Indeed it is.

 

[M6erfan]

Agreed. Just somebody trying to capitalize on the rampant xenophobia.
The lift on their main page looks like an import to me.

That's really what it usually is.

Much love for German, Swiss, Japanese, etc. stuff but Mexico, China, Vietnam, etc. - "Oh hell no!".

That's exactly what xenophobia is. Maybe the stuff is good quality - doesn't matter.

What's hilarious is that the permanently offended crowd completely misses the fact that if you look into the average American household, COO of all the products would point to Americans been xenophiles, not xenophobes.

But nah, racism and xenophobia. That's the ticket.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

Years ago while working in manufacturing, Harley-Davidson did a tour of our plant when they were considering us as a supplier of one of their parts, and while all of our materials and labor in all of our end products were 100% USA, I suspect the one thing that tripped them up was that almost all of our equipment and tools we used on the line to make them were not. For example, they stopped and were looking at the tools, like a crescent wrench and a set of allen wrenches etc on the shadow board at a station next to where I was working and I could hear them discussing all the "Chinese ****" they were seeing everywhere. I have no idea how much or how little that actually factored into everything but we did not ever get that contract.

Literally all our CNC machines and manual machines we have in the shop are made in Japan. All of the hand tools that came with those machines are also made in Japan. Most of my hand tools are Made in Germany/Europe. I think the only MiUSA stuff at work are the Lista tables, the Kennedy boxes, and some odds-and-ends Starrett stuff. We’ve also had companies do walk-throughs and ***** about it, but we always say the same thing…”show us a MiUSA machine that can handle the geometry and maintain the tolerances these MiJapan machines can and we will buy them”. People got to start understanding that there is an entire world out there full of cool stuff and it isn’t the end of the world to enjoy buying and using those things, especially if they work better or make your life easier.

That said, I appreciate people that try to do the whole MiUSA thing. I tried and failed but I raise my glass to those that live it.

 

[VolvoRyan]

What's hilarious is that the permanently offended crowd completely misses the fact that if you look into the average American household, COO of all the products would point to Americans been xenophiles, not xenophobes.

But nah, racism and xenophobia. That's the ticket.

Yup. I'm in a pretty red state, and there's no shame about getting everything from the dollar stores and Wally World. Own at least one American car (a runner or not), and you can drive all the Kia's you want.

There is a curious subculture about tools, though. The SK forums got unbelievably *fugly* when the Great Star sale went down.

-Ryan

 

[2ndGearRubber]

North Korea and Cuba maybe?

North Korea is interesting. It was Soviet backed, Chinese too, which inherently put it on the 2nd world team. But I'm not sure it's a communist nation currently. China claims to be a Communist country, even though it functions more as a commanded economy. I'm not sure NK claims to even be a communist nation at this time. Socialist, yes, but I believe the Kim family and their direction is now the political theory in charge.

Cuba is a good one, I forgot about them.

Agree, but You are speaking in practical terms, which is not what this thread is about, at all..

I feel sorry for American companies, who have to wade through the COO nightmare. They just want to make a profit in a very competitive world, but are forced to coddle many who may not even buy their products, regardless.

FWIW I find it hard to believe any fluke instrument, does not contain at least some imported IC components.

My point was just that any discriminatory practice occurring could not be directly related to race or location, if Japanese tools are held in high regard and Chinese looked down on. Consider if tools from Spain were considered low quality junk, but those from Portugal praised. Clearly discrimination based on the populations appearance, race, or location is not the primary reasoning as the populations are similar and their locations near one another. I know the Japanese and Chinese are different people, swap the two European countries for the UK and Spain then.

If one were to claim a history of cheap goods produced and shipped to the US tainting the reputation of quality Chinese tools, that's a fair assessment, and I believe something Japan went through as well. If an item from South Korea, or Japan, can be considered acceptable, and the Chinese option is looked down on, discrimination is not the cause. That perception is a learned response based on the Chinese position in the marketplace, as well as confirmation bias. Chinese goods make up a large percentage of the market. Thus anything cheap/crappy from china is "chinese junk", but people forget the good items which work fine. As Chinese labor costs rise, chinese companies will be less likely to compete for the bottom of the market, and the "chinese junk" type products will be made elsewhere.

What's hilarious is that the permanently offended crowd completely misses the fact that if you look into the average American household, COO of all the products would point to Americans been xenophiles, not xenophobes.

But nah, racism and xenophobia. That's the ticket.

If anything, I would say the average American household has domestically sourced products underrepresented in terms of total items or $$$. Very few things are made in the US, especially when we're talking finished products and not "supplies" like insulation or building materials which benefit from domestic production to avoid costly shipping of large items.

This forum is generally an outlier, IMO due to average age, when considering perception and even awareness of COO.



I prefer to purchase 1st world items when possible. I know this raises the cost for an identical item. I want to have those around me have opportunity for domestic manufacturing jobs, and support the companies that provide that when I can. That said, I was looking for an 8oz stubby handle hammer, and China won out on that. Only people who made one it seemed. Fine by me, it's a good hammer. My scan tools are assembled in Asian countries, Taiwan or China. Fine by me. COO is but a single factor. I like SK tools, I like their round head ratchets, I like(d) their USA made tools. My LP90 ratchet was awful and I didn't buy another after the first one. I wouldn't have bought another LP90 over a random ratchet from Lowes because the SK was so poor in use.

 

[zendriver]

What's hilarious is that the permanently offended crowd completely misses the fact that if you look into the average American household, COO of all the products would point to Americans been xenophiles, not xenophobes.

But nah, racism and xenophobia. That's the ticket.

Sure can't argue with your logic.

Not offended, almost feel a bit sorry for those lost in a world, of complaining (from their Chinese made computers, of course) about SBD ect. now making some (or most) of their **** overseas. They all have businesses to run, not easy for sure.

I'm a big fan of American manufacturing, but I like them making valuable high tech items and paying good skilled wages, leaving hand tools and floor jacks to imports, since we all know we don't want to pay someone a good wage for "unskilled" work, since that would have to be reflected in the product selling price..

Carry on with the phony rhetoric, though.

 

[M6erfan]

Carry on with the phony rhetoric, though.

What, exactly, is 'phony' about my statement?

 

[M6erfan]

If anything, I would say the average American household has domestically sourced products underrepresented in terms of total items or $$$.

Of course. That's why the whole xenophobia and racist accusations don't hold up, from a COO basis.

I prefer to purchase 1st world items when possible.

Me too.

 

[zendriver]

What, exactly, is 'phony' about my statement?

That's a good question, I was a bit harsh, since I really didn't understand the point you were trying to make.

If you just buy something and use it, without thinking about where it is made, one is a xenophile?

That's digging pretty deep.

 

[M6erfan]

That's a good question, I was a bit harsh, since I really didn't understand the point you were trying to make.

If you just buy something and use it, without thinking about where it is made, one is a xenophile?

That's digging pretty deep.

You missed my point completely. Not uncommon for you.

 

[Bubba Fett]

I prefer to buy tools and other items that are made in the USA because I want to support these companies, and smaller companies, if possible.

I have zero problems buying from Germany, Japan, Canada, Mexico, Taiwan, Korea, and other counties.

But I do avoid Chinese goods if possible, for political reasons that are beyond the scope of this forum. I also prefer not to by anything made in India due to quality concerns.

That said, I don't buy anything from tool trucks because the prices are cost prohibitive, and they wouldn't give me the time of day anyway.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I prefer to buy tools and other items that are made in the USA because I want to support these companies, and smaller companies, if possible.

I have zero problems buying from Germany, Japan, Canada, Mexico, Taiwan, Korea, and other counties.

But I do avoid Chinese goods if possible, for political reasons that are beyond the scope of this forum. I also prefer not to by anything made in India due to quality concerns.

That said, I don't buy anything from tool trucks because the prices are cost prohibitive, and they wouldn't give me the time of day anyway.

I've bought Chinese tools from the tool truck..... not sure what that means.


I'm with you on India. I'm not sure anything quality has ever been made in India. That said, someone will call be xenophobic in 2065 when the iPhone 100 is made in India, and Icon tools from HF feature India made stuff on their tool truck.

 

[Shocker]

Personally I do avoid a lot of products made in China. Especially if it is for cooking or food storage. History has shown that many Chinese companies are less than stellar when it comes to various chemicals making it into metal and plastics.

I do buy ceramic Chinese made stuff. They are very experienced with ceramics and porcelains so I am not concerned.

I buy made in USA plastics when I can plus stuff from Israel. That is pretty easy to come by without breaking the bank.

All my cooking gear is USA, France and Italy. Not a single Chinese made piece. I do have a couple of Brazilian stainless pots that are really nice and my steak knives are also made in Brazil.

When it comes to tools, I usually buy used. USA made if I can get them, but I do have a lot of Japanese, Taiwanese, European and Chinese made stuff.

The bottom line is race has nothing to do with it. It comes down to what I need and what the reputation is of the producer.

I have said a million times, Not everything made in the USA is awesome, not everything made in China *****.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Personally I do avoid a lot of products made in China. Especially if it is for cooking or food storage. History has shown that many Chinese companies are less than stellar when it comes to various chemicals making it into metal and plastics.

I do buy ceramic Chinese made stuff. They are very experienced with ceramics and porcelains so I am not concerned.

I buy made in USA plastics when I can plus stuff from Israel. That is pretty easy to come by without breaking the bank.

All my cooking gear is USA, France and Italy. Not a single Chinese made piece. I do have a couple of Brazilian stainless pots that are really nice and my steak knives are also made in Brazil.

When it comes to tools, I usually buy used. USA made if I can get them, but I do have a lot of Japanese, Taiwanese and Chinese made stuff.

The bottom line is race has nothing to do with it. It comes down to what I need and what the reputation is of the producer.

I have said a million times, Not everything made in the USA is awesome, not everything made in China *****.

The Israelis make an abnormal amount of automotive thermostats.

 

[BrandonV]

IMO the best tools come out of Taiwan and Japan.

Maybe it's my OCD but I've been upset more at some USA and Germany made purchases.

 

[rust in the eye]

What's hilarious is that the permanently offended crowd completely misses the fact that if you look into the average American household, COO of all the products would point to Americans been xenophiles, not xenophobes.

But nah, racism and xenophobia. That's the ticket.

I'm not offended. You?
Nobody else has commented on the import lift shown on that website which I say panders to xenophobia.
As for the post war racism towards the Japanese, it was real. I was born in the fifties to a family that saw all of the young men go to war, some in Europe others in the Pacific. Fortunately they all returned mostly intact. The prevailing attitude amongst my(European/Christian) family and that of my peers'(European/Christian) families was that the Japanese were savages to be hated, the Germans not so much. After all my family had many of the same foods on our table as those Nazis did and most of their attrocities were limited to those of "different" cultures. This is, of course, my anecdotal experience.
Did Japan churn out a bunch of junk in those days? Yes, they sure did. I believe relegated to doing so.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Zendriver, I’m not Xenophobic, I love/hate/like/dislike, all different kinds of people, and it’s base on them personally, not their coo.

That being said, I do hate that we depend so much on multiple countries that want us dead, or have proven they will regularly poison us, or fund attacks on us.

So yes, given the opportunity, I would love to support American businesses.

We can’t talk about communism, or religious zealots here, so unless I risk breaking the political/religious talk rule here, I think that’s as far as I can go.

 

[BrandonV]

I'm with you on India. I'm not sure anything quality has ever been made in India. That said, someone will call be xenophobic in 2065 when the iPhone 100 is made in India, and Icon tools from HF feature India made stuff on their tool truck.

Gossen Metrawatt is the German equivalent of Fluke (arguably better) and a few of the meters are made in India.

Outside of that I haven't seen much.

 

[Old Man Roger]

And to be clear, I have tons of Chinese products, and I buy my gas from the same places everyone else does, I don’t really have a reasonable choice to do otherwise, but I wish I did.

 

[PelicanPines]

It's probably NOT American Steel so what does it matter. This is the 2nd thread like this.

 

[M6erfan]

I'm not offended. You?

It offends me when baseless accusations of xenophobia and/or racism are thrown out with no evidence.

Nobody else has commented on the import lift shown on that website which I say panders to xenophobia.

Maybe they just didn't catch it, I didn't. It's simply a stock photo. Jeez man, you're just searching reasons.

As for the post war racism towards the Japanese, it was real. I was born in the fifties to a family that saw all of the young men go to war, some in Europe others in the Pacific. Fortunately they all returned mostly intact. The prevailing attitude amongst my(European/Christian) family and that of my peers'(European/Christian) families was that the Japanese were savages to be hated, the Germans not so much. After all my family had many of the same foods on our table as those Nazis did and most of their attrocities were limited to those of "different" cultures. This is, of course, my anecdotal experience.
Did Japan churn out a bunch of junk in those days? Yes, they sure did. I believe relegated to doing so.

Japan, pre WWII, was hardly a technological marvel. The U.S. pummeled what industrial infrastructure they did have to rubble. That's what happens in war. That website, nearly 80 years after the war, yet you equate that current article, with no mention of xenophobia or racism, to the post war, 1950's attitudes of Americans towards the Japanese. Really?

Both Germany and Japan are now allies and trading partners, DESPITE what they did in the past. That screams "rampant xenophobia" by Americans in your mind?

Good grief, it seems that someone indeed is permanently offended.

 

[JRPAviator]

iPhone anyone?

Of note half the iPhone chips are made in Korea…Also whole thing designed in the US…and some parts (not the Korean ones) are also not made in China. They ship all the stuff to China and have Chinese labor assemble. Source: I have taken apart every other generation of iPhone from the OG to iPhone 13 and read the labels on the chips…Also they are working hard to move a lot of IPhone assembly/production to the US because of issues in China. Source: a buddy who worked for Apple as a higher level logistics VP. He left last year.

 

[rust in the eye]

Seems I've touched a nerve.
Goodbye

 

[HFlashman]

There is a lot to the issue of American manufacturing moving overseas. It is very political and the biggest proponents of offshore manufacture has been corporate America, including the W store and H store (and their practices practices with suppliers). There are those who benefit and those who don't. In the late 70's before globalization, I remember my supply-sider (Univ of Chicago PhD's--Milton Freeman trained) econ profs talking about reducing trade barriers and freeing up trade world wide would increase economic activity hugely and benefit the WORLD as a result. However, they said there would be some losers as well. Capitol would flow to cheap labor and those with higher labor costs would loose jobs/production. So during the Reagan and Clinton presidencies, barriers fell and free trade flourished. Little was done to slow ease the transition in the US nor to protect certain industries. So here we are today. We are slowly, finally, changing course but big business has made decades of profit moving jobs overseas.

As worker bees, what can we do? Let your legislators know made in USA is crucial and that trade and tax policies should work to that goal. Also, be careful of where you shop and what you buy.

 

[bpwoodworking]

Id much rather see the USA become more competitive. Part of the reason is that local .gov acts a gatekeeper against small business. Small business is the starting point for a great deal of innovation.

It’s extremely expensive to run a small business and .gov is a significant and costly hinderance at every step. They behave similarly to big business but it effects them less proportionally.

Adding taxes by way of tariff is a way to accomplish the end goal but at a high cost to the consumer.

 

[HFlashman]

In follow up, fundamentally, the issue may come down to the nature of the corporation. Corporations exist along with other business entities sanctioned or permitted by the State, your local state government, for the benefit of society. (This goes back to the King or Crown issuing charters for companies like the East India Company.) Other businesses may be sole proprietorships and partnerships. However, the corporation structure also benefits the owners or shareholders by limiting their liability solely to their ownership stake meaning if the corporation is sued and there is a judgment, the plaintiff cannot not seek funds beyond the corporation or their assets (which they can against sole proprietorships and partnerships). Corporate citizenship 40 or 50 years ago was different than today. Corporations (at the ones I worked for) thought about their obligation to their local community as a citizen and not just to make money but also to provide jobs, healthcare, etc. However, that has changed and was reinforced by a US Supreme Court decision about 10 or 15 years ago that said corporations' sole obligation is to it's shareholders--to make money, period. No obligation to provide for their community, no jobs, and nothing outside of what was a legal activity: No sense of obligation or requirement to make products in the US or the jobs it requires. It is only to enhance the wealth of the shareholders.

So, if corporations or other similar business entities only exist to make money for their shareholders and not also help the communities which they are located, why should the State allow their existence?

 

[oldpliers1]

I don’t live in America but or a long time made in America meant Quality , I think Crescent has jumped off a cliff and needs to Move back to USA and Australia manufacturing,and get out of China .
I recently bought a pair of kleins made in Japan ( copied of old Aussie Sidchrome pliers ) and a Mexican pair which were not as good as the USA pair in feel and balance and finish .
Channellock Pliers are good ( but you dont get the good stuff we get from channellock , unless you buy the Cementex version) .
Tektons 16 inch grips are a great tool made in the USA ,but have a mix of Chinese stuff thrown in .
AT the end of the day if it is not Cast or forged in the United States it’s Phony and should be viewed as consumable and a limited life tool . And the price should reflect the Country of manufacture and not be equal to a quality USA tool makers who pay their workers real money not rice and curry. Crescent in particulars disgusting greed is a major example .

 

[oldpliers1]

In follow up, fundamentally, the issue may come down to the nature of the corporation. Corporations exist along with other business entities sanctioned or permitted by the State, your local state government, for the benefit of society. (This goes back to the King or Crown issuing charters for companies like the East India Company.) Other businesses may be sole proprietorships and partnerships. However, the corporation structure also benefits the owners or shareholders by limiting their liability solely to their ownership stake meaning if the corporation is sued and there is a judgment, the plaintiff cannot not seek funds beyond the corporation or their assets (which they can against sole proprietorships and partnerships). Corporate citizenship 40 or 50 years ago was different than today. Corporations (at the ones I worked for) thought about their obligation to their local community as a citizen and not just to make money but also to provide jobs, healthcare, etc. However, that has changed and was reinforced by a US Supreme Court decision about 10 or 15 years ago that said corporations' sole obligation is to it's shareholders--to make money, period. No obligation to provide for their community, no jobs, and nothing outside of what was a legal activity: No sense of obligation or requirement to make products in the US or the jobs it requires. It is only to enhance the wealth of the shareholders.

So, if corporations or other similar business entities only exist to make money for their shareholders and not also help the communities which they are located, why should the State allow their existence?

I fully agree that greed of corporations over the aims of the tool makers , who not only wanted to make and sell a good product but base it in their community which in turn had a positive economic benefit to the community. Corporate greed has no Benefit to A community that has had their plant shut down and moved to Asia . Sure they can save $1 a unit , but they don’t pay taxes in the United States , they create nothing but unemployment. Sure the small number of investors get a bigger return . Hmmm I pay a lot more for USA products than you living in the states , about 60% more , I would rather see my hard earned dollar Go to the states than China any day. In my 45 years As an electrical contractor I have seen things really go backward through globalisation, the prices have never been reduced through offshore production but the quality has . I’ll post a few examples . Cheers

 

[oldpliers1]

Funny. I have a 2 multimeters, one made in China, one made in Japan. Pretty sure my next one will be a BK Precision, made in Taiwan.

Guess that makes me a xenophily.

It’s funny you say that I threw my main fluke in the bin on Sunday and looked at my kleins and saw that China mark on them and thought they will end up in their too . Yet sold under a false flag with USA all over the Klein product .
is their a decent multimeter made in the USA ?

 

[BigMike782]

Analyze Lincoln or Miller.
Where are components made?
Where are assemblies made?
Where are machines assembled?
It’s extremely difficult to support American made with such a diverse economy.

 

[micromind]

The Simpson 260 is made in the USA. I don't think they make any digital multimeters though.

 

[Aileron]

On Ebay, usually stuff with the American flag or US seller is BS. Click their feedback then look for a "about" button. 9 out of 10 times its someone based in China.
I have a couple good until cancelled adds running for years on there and when I first noticed this, they actually copied and pasted my description, bleached the color out of my photos. Bastards undercut my price, I still cant figure how , I cant ship across town as cheap as they are selling either. Bad part is some of my background on us and what I sell was copied into the description and they put it on theirs also.

 

[zendriver]

In follow up, fundamentally, the issue may come down to the nature of the corporation. Corporations exist along with other business entities sanctioned or permitted by the State, your local state government, for the benefit of society. (This goes back to the King or Crown issuing charters for companies like the East India Company.) Other businesses may be sole proprietorships and partnerships. However, the corporation structure also benefits the owners or shareholders by limiting their liability solely to their ownership stake meaning if the corporation is sued and there is a judgment, the plaintiff cannot not seek funds beyond the corporation or their assets (which they can against sole proprietorships and partnerships). Corporate citizenship 40 or 50 years ago was different than today. Corporations (at the ones I worked for) thought about their obligation to their local community as a citizen and not just to make money but also to provide jobs, healthcare, etc. However, that has changed and was reinforced by a US Supreme Court decision about 10 or 15 years ago that said corporations' sole obligation is to it's shareholders--to make money, period. No obligation to provide for their community, no jobs, and nothing outside of what was a legal activity: No sense of obligation or requirement to make products in the US or the jobs it requires. It is only to enhance the wealth of the shareholders.

So, if corporations or other similar business entities only exist to make money for their shareholders and not also help the communities which they are located, why should the State allow their existence?

If corporations were so benevolent in the past, why were there everThe formation of labor unions?

If they cared so much about the community, why was the EPA ever formed?

Corporations existed then for the same reason they exist today