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If I hire an architect.....

John Timmins

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Joined
Sep 1, 2008
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857
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Flagler Beach, FL
....who owns the final plans ?

If I paid for them I believe they are mine since I'm asking him to design something for me. Once I have the plans I can get builders to study them so they can bid to build for me.

OK, once the house is done, I see no reason why I can't sell the plans to others interested in that style.

Meanwhile, can the architect sell my plans to others without my permission ? I don't know how this works and I will be hiring an architect before long.
 
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ssdave

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Apr 11, 2015
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It depends on the contract. In general, the design is the property of the architect, and the plans that are the expression of that design are the intellectual property of the architect. Most architects retain the copyright on the design, and you can use those plans only for the intended purpose, namely building your house. They are not yours to sell to others. As his intellectual property, the architect can sell them to others to use, or modify them for others to use.

If you wish to "own" the plans, you can specify that in your contract with the Architect, compensate him for whatever he values that right, and then they are yours to do with as you wish. If he has stamped the plans, that certification will probably be disclaimed on the plans for the original designed location only, as his specific design will not take into account other sites and the conditions there.

Hope this helps clarify it somewhat.
 

Cyberbear

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Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
1,524
Location
California
Get a release from the architect allowing you free use of the plans you paid to have made.
When I was the draftsman for a construction company, the plans were the property of our customer, obviously things have changed since 1963.
 

Eric Commarato

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Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
188
Location
Mississippi
As of December 1990 an architect's design work is protected by copyright laws. The architect is the owner of the documents and the intellectual property represented in those documents. That doesn't mean there can't be an agreement between owner and architect for the architect to be compensated each time the designed is used. Really no different than buying someone's music in lieu of downloading it illegally.

Eric J. Commarato, AIA Registered Architect
 
OP
J

John Timmins

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Joined
Sep 1, 2008
Messages
857
Location
Flagler Beach, FL
Thanks for all this good info. I will have to honor the architect's copyright and all that, but somehow I figured it would be more in my favor since I am designing the floor plan and doing all the measuring using my survey as a reference.

What I'm really wanting his services for is his eye and experience. He used to rent 3 houses down so he knows the street and it's drainage issues. Although swales were recently added, he can get access to the elevation survey of each of my neighbors from the city engineer's office and determine stem walls, allowable grading or adding fill to the lot, and X feet high the slab needs to be above the mean high tide in the back yard etc. There's more to this than just a house plan with the trusses and wiring.

For my needs I'm basically building a one bedroom house..... with a pair of guest bedrooms, bath, and TV room upstairs. The elevation will be a streamline / deco style and the architect is from Miami.

Back to my original thoughts.....I am making the floor plan which I believe will be drawn up by his interns. I don't think he'll be doing much of the designing at all. If he's paying his interns to do everything on the computer I think he should be paying me somehow. I'm bring in a model of the house not vague descriptions and a kindergarten sketch. I made the model because I didn't think I could describe what I want.

FYI the downstairs will be about 1400 sq. feet plus the garage, and the upstairs about 700. there will be 2 air conditioning systems
 

Playwme

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Sep 13, 2012
Messages
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The Lucky Country Down Under
I don't know why he's charging you at all. It's not he's done 7 years of study,plus certification, and everyone knows there's no liability involved in that proffesion.

Oh, actually now that I think of it..........
 

DekeT

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Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Messages
2,234
Location
USA
Thanks for all this good info. I will have to honor the architect's copyright and all that, but somehow I figured it would be more in my favor since I am designing the floor plan and doing all the measuring using my survey as a reference.

What I'm really wanting his services for is his eye and experience. He used to rent 3 houses down so he knows the street and it's drainage issues. Although swales were recently added, he can get access to the elevation survey of each of my neighbors from the city engineer's office and determine stem walls, allowable grading or adding fill to the lot, and X feet high the slab needs to be above the mean high tide in the back yard etc. There's more to this than just a house plan with the trusses and wiring.

For my needs I'm basically building a one bedroom house..... with a pair of guest bedrooms, bath, and TV room upstairs. The elevation will be a streamline / deco style and the architect is from Miami.

Back to my original thoughts.....I am making the floor plan which I believe will be drawn up by his interns. I don't think he'll be doing much of the designing at all. If he's paying his interns to do everything on the computer I think he should be paying me somehow. I'm bring in a model of the house not vague descriptions and a kindergarten sketch. I made the model because I didn't think I could describe what I want.

FYI the downstairs will be about 1400 sq. feet plus the garage, and the upstairs about 700. there will be 2 air conditioning systems

If I were your architect I would drop you as a client. You got what you paid for under the terms and conditions of your contract and the law. Nobody owes you.
 
OP
J

John Timmins

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Sep 1, 2008
Messages
857
Location
Flagler Beach, FL
Well said Playwme. I get it. I had an architect tell me once if he knew how difficult the journey would be to complete his architectural degree and all the professional certifications, he believed that medical school would have been easier and faster. I get it that he has a license, professional liability, and all that.

I'm not going to push it that I want exclusive use of the plans etc. or will pay MORE for that opportunity. I just want the house and his expertise. but back to what I was wondering before....... it seems weird that I could pay $4000-5000 for blueprints I could USE but he could resell as many times as he can but I can't . This is a "heads I win - tails you lose" situation that I'm glad I'm learning about right now. I see how this works now.

Finally, I don't suddenly dislike architects. I don't blame them for covering themselves and making a living. I get it.
 

Leaflessshadetree

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Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
7,148
Location
Don't ask.
Many customers have some idea of room arrangement and size. Most likely they will have existing plans and you can select something close and "customize" it to suit your desires and location.
Room locations and size are just part of designing a building.

If you want exclusive rights to resell the plans expect to pay a lot more than $5000.
 
Last edited:

bczygan

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Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,002
Location
DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
A couple of things.

You don't have to be an Architect to have copyright protection for your design work.

And in some cases, copyright protection is very thin.
http://www.aia.org/practicing/AIAB082309

In any case, it is expensive to sue for infringement.

Could you get away with using a set of construction documents from your build, to build another structure elsewhere? Probably. Especially is just one, and not nearby. You would have to cut off the title block with his information and get someone to copy the documents.

In many places though, over a certain square footage, you need stamped drawings for submittal to the building authority.

It depends on if you are ever found out, and whether the guy wants to sue.

Selling them on the open market? That's just asking for it. I would sue you just on principle, and I despise sue happy people.

As to whether you have any ownership in the documents...From your description, you are a typically collaborative client. A lot of clients bring a favorite plan they have found and liked. Some even draw up their thinking. An Architect, or any good designer, will take that information and develop a design that truly solves the problems of that particular client and his particular site. Many times the solution bears little resemblance to the original. Even it is does though, you are paying for his professional seal of approval....literally!

So my advice is to continue to develop your ideas, both before and after you begin working with your Architect or designer. Stay open to new ideas, and collaborate closely. You will end up with a better result. And isn't the built structure what you are really after?

Bill
 
Last edited:

Jon_E

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Joined
Aug 19, 2015
Messages
575
Location
Southwestern Vermont
Few things to consider here. First, as you have been made aware, the architect has the copyright. It falls under the same intellectual property issues as any other copyrighted work. You'll also notice that the plans will have two things on them that severely limit the ability of either one of you to make a future profit from the resale of said plans. One is that the plan set should have your name and the site location on them in the title block. The other is that the architect should stamp, sign and date the plans. It is highly unlikely that another client would want the exact same set of plans.

The way that architects can profit from the repeated sale of a set of plans is by offering them to the public as a generic set with no name or stamp. You buy the plan set and if you want it customized or legal for a building permit, you pay extra.

If the idea and sketch work for the house you are building is 100% yours, then hire a draftsman, not an architect. They will draw up simply what you have given them. If any, and I mean any, portion of that project is the architect's responsibility (from code interpretations to simply having interns, who are paid by the architect, doing the drafting), then that work belongs to the design professional. By asking a professional to "help you", he has taken on 100% of the liability for the project, which includes financial, ethical and professional aspects.
 

Chris705

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Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
834
Location
The Finger Lakes of NY
Trust me architects are NOT making a living by selling floor plans they created for a client. I guess some (very few) might be selling their plans to a plan book company. In today's world the architect will more than likely give you as many copies as you want or even give you a PDF of your plans. If he gives you the plans I also highly doubt he will have any problem if you try to sell the layout, after all as someone above mentioned above the plans need to stamped specific to the project.
 
OP
J

John Timmins

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Joined
Sep 1, 2008
Messages
857
Location
Flagler Beach, FL
Yes. The bottom line is I want a house. the whole point of my initial question is to learn how this process works.

Some of you need to backtrack and re-read my postings. I'm not mad at anyone and certainly not looking to sue somebody. Why would I ? On what grounds ? Relax !

I am getting a cram course here on the drawings stampings and whatnot, copyrights, and more about this design. You don't know something until you ask...right ? I'm not a troublemaker. If I could sell my plans and get some money back to spend on furnishings why wouldn't I ? Wouldn't you ?

Of course if it's not legal to do this, and I'm just now learning that is it not acceptable to do this, I will drop the idea. It's over.

Special thanks to all who have responded !
 

speed bump

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Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
6,317
Location
Butte Montana
All the plans are is a visual representation of a house design that will work in your specific case. The floor plan idea might be your own (and you could sell them without any of the architect value added) but the design is the architects work you may receive a copy as proof of work (the master should be filed with your local jurisdiction) but that doesn't make his work your own.

Finally, the architect should have his interns doing the drawing for your house because 90% of CAD is time consuming busy work and by doing it that way he is saving you money.
 

kwschumm

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Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
1,220
Location
Olympia, WA
We worked with an architect (Alan Mascord Design in Portland OR) to custom design a house. At the time I didn't think about retaining rights to the plan, just wanted to get the house built. Their contract stipulated that they retained the design but I had a license to build the house as many times as I wanted. Most architects probably do something similar. Our house is now available in their standard portfolio. Since we are building a new house I thought about building another copy but as time goes by our tastes and needs have changed.
 
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bczygan

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Nov 4, 2009
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DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
OP,
In any case, a good design is site specific, and would not likely work as well on any other site.

And when I was talking about lawsuits, I wasn't talking about you suing, but rather you being sued, by the copyright holder.

And as far as draftsman are concerned, they and any other designer, can also have automatic copyright rights to their designs. Best to clear up any confusion with a written agreement beforehand.

I used to work for an Architect who's every advertisement and set of plans and drawings contained a big "Protected by Copyright" notice.

And if I designed something for you, I would certainly hold the rights. And the more generic the work, the more tightly I would hold them. Wait, let me change that. The more generic AND the more esoteric the work, I would hold tight. I wouldn't want to see dozens of Fallingwaters built all over the country. And if I designed a standard plan that was built everywhere, I would certainly want a piece of every one.

Bill
 
Last edited:

Playwme

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Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,032
Location
The Lucky Country Down Under
Yes. The bottom line is I want a house. the whole point of my initial question is to learn how this process works.

Some of you need to backtrack and re-read my postings. I'm not mad at anyone and certainly not looking to sue somebody. Why would I ? On what grounds ? Relax !

I am getting a cram course here on the drawings stampings and whatnot, copyrights, and more about this design. You don't know something until you ask...right ? I'm not a troublemaker. If I could sell my plans and get some money back to spend on furnishings why wouldn't I ? Wouldn't you ?

Of course if it's not legal to do this, and I'm just now learning that is it not acceptable to do this, I will drop the idea. It's over.

Special thanks to all who have responded !

Don't worry, I feel your original concerns. My uncle is an architect and we (the wife) got some some extension plans drawn up. Even at family rates we spent a couple thousand and didn't end up going through with the project anyway.

I probably judged you a bit harshly after the first post. On this board Its not uncommon for someone to post an idea or a rant and no amount of arguments to the contrary will change their view.
Of course, that doesn't mean I wouldn't have phrased my reply any differently though;) Sarcasm is my architectural style of response(copyright-Playwme 2016)
You're a good egg. Good luck with your project.
 

patterg2003

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
18
I have designed houses & buildings as well as employed architects for large commercial buildings on two occasions. The architect goes through a process to develop the plans & layouts with the customer then ensures that it is structurally strong, healthy environment, aesthetically pleasing and complies with all the applicable codes. Often they use a structural engineer, partners, interior designers and others depending on the depth of detail. The architect's fee may include some site visits as a due diligence that the construction is to the standards required. His licence & reputation is at stake so the designer will insure that it meets code. Should the construction not meet the standards of the drawings & codes in this jurisdiction then the designer can call the building inspector and have the job stopped until there is correction. I recently designed a public walkway & an elevated scenic lookout for a volunteer group to build. The plans were approved by the building inspector. I worked closely with the group & their contractor to make sure that it was built correct & safe. Drawing the plans was a gift to the group & to that small community. The work took a lot of hours to design & detail. My version of helping the same as pounding the the nails.

The design stays in the control of the architect for several reasons. It is the architect's intellectual property that protects the architect & client. If the house plans are built for Florida and sold to a friend in northern Minnesota the building may not work as the climatic requirements are different that significantly affect the building. The Florida house would not have the frost footings, insulation levels for cold or the structure for roof snow loads. The architect cannot assure the safety of the plans outside his sphere of control. The architect would not have any call for an exact set of plans that were developed in partnership with a homeowner with that owners unique set of conditions. A second owner of the plans trying to use the plans again may not have the plans accepted for the building permits as codes can vary between jurisdictions.

I have often been asked if I would draw a set of house plans then they show me the house plans in a catalog. They want a few minor changes where the plan service selling the plans would easily make the changes & the purchase costs would be significantly lower than employing anyone to draw them. An architect's services would be significantly more expensive.

Catalog plans are a reasonable way to go or look for companies that specialize in home plans as they are less expensive. All the fine print & boiler plate language for these services will be that they are for the sole use of the customer.

I have done a hand full of plans for friends as an aid in their getting a home built at a reasonable cost. It is a process that can drag on & be painful between a misty eyed wife building her dream & the other half trying to hold the costs. Once a couple see the first draft on paper then it usually goes through a battery of changes. Redrawing is easier in these days with ACAD. People often are spatially challenged & room sizes are confusing. I have taken people to an area to where we can put markers to represent the space so they can see it first hand. My close friend bought a set of plans and asked me to look at it. I told them their dining /living was small & they argued that they saw the display home. We did the measuring and layouts so they could see it in real size. They discovered that it was a model up that was the one they need & that it looked the same. They were only out the set of purchased plans and built the right house.

Working with couples to do a good job chews up a lot of time between meetings to develop layouts, finishes, details, revisions and issuing final drawings. Architects like lawyers, doctors, dentists and any other personal service professional are on the clock so their time is valuable. The time is expensive if squandered in a process of indecision. When doing large projects I budget between 7-10% for the consultants services depending on the complexity. The architects that I worked with on the large projects used structural & geophysical engineers for the bones of the project. The structural & soils engineers are the most demanding on seeing it built to the plans & the codes. Soils & structural engineers are the most heavily insured & sued group. I am personally responsible for the design of the buildings that I did. If my design were to have a catastrophic failure due to my error or a short cut by the contractor then it would turn into a legal furball where everyone goes broke. The design has to be 100% all the time for life safety & security so there is a lot of pressure on an architect & his team. The last thing anyone wants is a any failure that maims and kills. The architects take about 7 years in a wicked education program where only the select few make their professional certification. Architects have to be knowledgeable in a myriad of codes & knowledgeable to direct those whom he employs. An Architect may take longer than a medical doctor to achieve his professional status so they are not going to risk their reputation on someone's misuse of the plans.

I have got in to crazy structural discussions because someones friend did it. Why have I have I done this way or that where it gets stupid. I did friend's house plans where it was raised, expanded & a basement put under it. I spec'd three steel beams so one mid span post per beam. The contractor was pissed because he wanted wood beams that would have need 2 posts per beam. The owner sourced the steel beams and when it was done appreciated that he had one row of 3 columns and not two rows of 3 that would have screwed developing the basement.

In one case I spec'd microlam lintels over large windows as the economical solution with no deflection to crack the wide windows. The carpenter was squawking that it was expensive but it was only a few dollars more to protect $3k windows. The owner appreciated the purpose & had no issue with cost. It is knowledge, experience & practical perspective. I designed a super insulated slab on grade for the same fellow 30 years ago that 15 years ago is an accepted practice because of my interest in energy efficient buildings. The heat savings to the owner paid for the drawings a long time ago in this northern climate.
A franchise restaurant owner was given my name & asked for my help to look at a building addition with a large natural gas furnace & boilers to lower his heat costs. I talked hm into upgrading windows and increasing the fiberglass insulation in the roof trusses for a small fraction of the cost of the proposed building extension & HVAC system. His costs for heat & cooling dropped by thousands. A friend & I had designed the bones of the restaurant for the previous owners 35 years ago where we had the walls well insulated but the owner elected to use less efficient commercial windows. I got a couple costs of coffee and made a big difference for the owner. He was a franchise owners meeting and there was a request to the floor for suggestions to improve profits. The owner told me that he jumped up and gave the group a list of improvements to reduce the building operating costs by several thousands per year. He was really pumped when he was telling me & I think people thought we were arguing in the hardware store. Good building design can make a difference.

Best example of plans misuse. I had a fellow at work who built a house where there was no building inspector in his jurisdiction. He approached me one day to ask why his floor moved when the dog walked across it. He had a set of plans that required posts under the main beam in the basement. He did not want to install the posts so he could have a large open family room in the basement. A contractor friend told him that a laminated beam of 4-2x12's should do the span so he ignored the plans & built with no posts. I told him to pick up some teleposts on his way home from work and put them in immediately. He worked with our civil engineer to get some longer spans with plate reinforcements & for the placement of permanent columns & footings. He was lucky his house did not collapse in the 2 years that his family lived in it. The roof snow load design here is 62.5 lbs per square foot so if the dead load did not put the house in the basement then winter should have. A house 2 blocks over collapsed into basement during construction caused by the builders stupidity. A designer has to satisfy the codes & codes are the "minimum std of construction".

I am certified for mechanical & civil design where I worked as an industrial designer for a large plant. We designed it, built it in house or employed contractors and were appreciated for the work we did. The guys in our office occasionally would partner to design a local building as the next licensed designers are 4 hours away. We made a little money on the side providing stamped drawings, it helped local businesses & provided a valued service at a fraction of costs for the long distance consultants. We all stopped years ago as there are too many headaches associated with the work. Life is easy as in the plant, we estimate, budget, design it, acquire the regulatory approvals, manage the build and life is good. I don't even want to do my own house plans for an addition that the wife wants but I will.

From my 2 experiences with architects they earn their money, don't get the respect they deserve & the architect's work was top drawer.

This could go on for pages but this may give a designers perspective and the risks.

Glenn
 
Last edited:

Bib Overalls

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Joined
Dec 4, 2006
Messages
3,318
Location
Jonesboro, Arkansas
A gentleman here had a business designing houses. He and the client would start with a plan book and create a plan for the bank and the builder. He was sued into bankruptcy by the people who owned the copyright. How they found out what he was doing I do not know but they did.
 

toolmiser

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
1,656
Location
La Crosse, WI
Being the "devils advocate" What if you (home owner) sold the plans to another person, could they in turn "resell" them without you getting the money?
 

BADSIX

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Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
895
Location
oregon coast
I have designed houses & buildings as well as employed architects for large commercial buildings on two occasions. The architect goes through a process to develop the plans & layouts with the customer then ensures that it is structurally strong, healthy environment, aesthetically pleasing and complies with all the applicable codes. Often they use a structural engineer, partners, interior designers and others depending on the depth of detail. The architect's fee may include some site visits as a due diligence that the construction is to the standards required. His licence & reputation is at stake so the designer will insure that it meets code. Should the construction not meet the standards of the drawings & codes in this jurisdiction then the designer can call the building inspector and have the job stopped until there is correction. I recently designed a public walkway & an elevated scenic lookout for a volunteer group to build. The plans were approved by the building inspector. I worked closely with the group & their contractor to make sure that it was built correct & safe. Drawing the plans was a gift to the group & to that small community. The work took a lot of hours to design & detail. My version of helping the same as pounding the the nails.

The design stays in the control of the architect for several reasons. It is the architect's intellectual property that protects the architect & client. If the house plans are built for Florida and sold to a friend in northern Minnesota the building may not work as the climatic requirements are different that significantly affect the building. The Florida house would not have the frost footings, insulation levels for cold or the structure for roof snow loads. The architect cannot assure the safety of the plans outside his sphere of control. The architect would not have any call for an exact set of plans that were developed in partnership with a homeowner with that owners unique set of conditions. A second owner of the plans trying to use the plans again may not have the plans accepted for the building permits as codes can vary between jurisdictions.

I have often been asked if I would draw a set of house plans then they show me the house plans in a catalog. They want a few minor changes where the plan service selling the plans would easily make the changes & the purchase costs would be significantly lower than employing anyone to draw them. An architect's services would be significantly more expensive.

Catalog plans are a reasonable way to go or look for companies that specialize in home plans as they are less expensive. All the fine print & boiler plate language for these services will be that they are for the sole use of the customer.

I have done a hand full of plans for friends as an aid in their getting a home built at a reasonable cost. It is a process that can drag on & be painful between a misty eyed wife building her dream & the other half trying to hold the costs. Once a couple see the first draft on paper then it usually goes through a battery of changes. Redrawing is easier in these days with ACAD. People often are spatially challenged & room sizes are confusing. I have taken people to an area to where we can put markers to represent the space so they can see it first hand. My close friend bought a set of plans and asked me to look at it. I told them their dining /living was small & they argued that they saw the display home. We did the measuring and layouts so they could see it in real size. They discovered that it was a model up that was the one they need & that it looked the same. They were only out the set of purchased plans and built the right house.

Working with couples to do a good job chews up a lot of time between meetings to develop layouts, finishes, details, revisions and issuing final drawings. Architects like lawyers, doctors, dentists and any other personal service professional are on the clock so their time is valuable. The time is expensive if squandered in a process of indecision. When doing large projects I budget between 7-10% for the consultants services depending on the complexity. The architects that I worked with on the large projects used structural & geophysical engineers for the bones of the project. The structural & soils engineers are the most demanding on seeing it built to the plans & the codes. Soils & structural engineers are the most heavily insured & sued group. I am personally responsible for the design of the buildings that I did. If my design were to have a catastrophic failure due to my error or a short cut by the contractor then it would turn into a legal furball where everyone goes broke. The design has to be 100% all the time for life safety & security so there is a lot of pressure on an architect & his team. The last thing anyone wants is a any failure that maims and kills. The architects take about 7 years in a wicked education program where only the select few make their professional certification. Architects have to be knowledgeable in a myriad of codes & knowledgeable to direct those whom he employs. An Architect may take longer than a medical doctor to achieve his professional status so they are not going to risk their reputation on someone's misuse of the plans.

I have got in to crazy structural discussions because someones friend did it. Why have I have I done this way or that where it gets stupid. I did friend's house plans where it was raised, expanded & a basement put under it. I spec'd three steel beams so one mid span post per beam. The contractor was pissed because he wanted wood beams that would have need 2 posts per beam. The owner sourced the steel beams and when it was done appreciated that he had one row of 3 columns and not two rows of 3 that would have screwed developing the basement.

In one case I spec'd microlam lintels over large windows as the economical solution with no deflection to crack the wide windows. The carpenter was squawking that it was expensive but it was only a few dollars more to protect $3k windows. The owner appreciated the purpose & had no issue with cost. It is knowledge, experience & practical perspective. I designed a super insulated slab on grade for the same fellow 30 years ago that 15 years ago is an accepted practice because of my interest in energy efficient buildings. The heat savings to the owner paid for the drawings a long time ago in this northern climate.
A franchise restaurant owner was given my name & asked for my help to look at a building addition with a large natural gas furnace & boilers to lower his heat costs. I talked hm into upgrading windows and increasing the fiberglass insulation in the roof trusses for a small fraction of the cost of the proposed building extension & HVAC system. His costs for heat & cooling dropped by thousands. A friend & I had designed the bones of the restaurant for the previous owners 35 years ago where we had the walls well insulated but the owner elected to use less efficient commercial windows. I got a couple costs of coffee and made a big difference for the owner. He was a franchise owners meeting and there was a request to the floor for suggestions to improve profits. The owner told me that he jumped up and gave the group a list of improvements to reduce the building operating costs by several thousands per year. He was really pumped when he was telling me & I think people thought we were arguing in the hardware store. Good building design can make a difference.

Best example of plans misuse. I had a fellow at work who built a house where there was no building inspector in his jurisdiction. He approached me one day to ask why his floor moved when the dog walked across it. He had a set of plans that required posts under the main beam in the basement. He did not want to install the posts so he could have a large open family room in the basement. A contractor friend told him that a laminated beam of 4-2x12's should do the span so he ignored the plans & built with no posts. I told him to pick up some teleposts on his way home from work and put them in immediately. He worked with our civil engineer to get some longer spans with plate reinforcements & for the placement of permanent columns & footings. He was lucky his house did not collapse in the 2 years that his family lived in it. The roof snow load design here is 62.5 lbs per square foot so if the dead load did not put the house in the basement then winter should have. A house 2 blocks over collapsed into basement during construction caused by the builders stupidity. A designer has to satisfy the codes & codes are the "minimum std of construction".

I am certified for mechanical & civil design where I worked as an industrial designer for a large plant. We designed it, built it in house or employed contractors and were appreciated for the work we did. The guys in our office occasionally would partner to design a local building as the next licensed designers are 4 hours away. We made a little money on the side providing stamped drawings, it helped local businesses & provided a valued service at a fraction of costs for the long distance consultants. We all stopped years ago as there are too many headaches associated with the work. Life is easy as in the plant, we estimate, budget, design it, acquire the regulatory approvals, manage the build and life is good. I don't even want to do my own house plans for an addition that the wife wants but I will.

From my 2 experiences with architects they earn their money, don't get the respect they deserve & the architect's work was top drawer.

This could go on for pages but this may give a designers perspective and the risks.

Glenn

THIS ^^^^ my boy is an architect
Jay D.
 

GSRinmyCRX

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Joined
Jun 10, 2014
Messages
201
Location
Western, NY
I was in the same boat as you I had my house design all set up right down to the dimension. I even forwarded my CAD file to my architect. he quote me at $3,000 and we ended up making the house bigger and he still came in under budget. my leg work up front saved him some time trying to figure out what exactly I wanted and saved me money. I think that is all you can really hope for, basically you do the work of his technicians. my wife was concerned that he could reuse our design (like we came up with it on our own haha, found it in a magazine) I told her it wasn't even worth worrying about because even if we "owned" the design he could change one wall or one dimension and it would be different. being an engineer I figured it wouldn't even need an architect but really what you end up paying them for is the stamp in the corner of your plans.

Levi
 

Stuart in MN

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Sep 8, 2005
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Minneapolis
I think it's going to be a pretty rare event where an architect would be able to use the design for one house exactly for another house, there's always going to be changes that have to be made to suit the new location.

As an engineer I have clients say all the time, "oh, this project will be just like that one we did last year at ***", but that's never actually happened in 35 years.
 
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John Timmins

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Sep 1, 2008
Messages
857
Location
Flagler Beach, FL
I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to post. I've been reading and getting help from the Garage Journal for quite a while. Without question, this blog has been the most educational of any topic I have started - at least to me. It has been not only educational, but it has really opened my eyes to a lot of different subjects and perhaps protected me from things I don't know about.

I will hire the architect I have had an initial meeting with. Not only will the house design be made specific to my needs, but the guy's office is within walking distance. Also he used to rent a house 3 lots away from my place, so he is familiar with my street, the tide in the salt water canal in back of the lot, and the swales built on my street about 4 years ago for drainage issues. I believe I will get what I'm paying for. Paying for what is done right and NOT doing something wrong are TWO wins to me !


Postings above opened my eyes to the site specific needs of homes around the country. Of course I never thought about the weight of snow on a roof in Michigan while somebody's house up there doesn't think about high tide and hurricane coastal barrier island building codes that I need to have. SITE SPECIFIC says it all ! The architect's professional license (and experience with this town's building department) is all the more reason to hire him.

I have looked at a few model homes and spec homes of one of those giant real estate / custom home building outfits. I told one of them I didn't want to buy their house but build one. They wanted to work with me using their design department that was in a different state and could get plans "much cheaper" but the guy isn't going to ever see the lot I'm building on . Besides, what if I don't want them to build for me ?

To summarize, I will hire and probably pay up for the service of the architect, but to me, in this case I will get what I pay for - a local guy familiar with my street who's office is close and is familiar with coastal barrier island building codes in a neighborhood that has very specific building requirements in that group of 4 streets as well !

Also, I looked at many of the Mascord home plans, and couldn't find what I needed.

Again thanks to all the information.

:beer:
 

patterg2003

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Apr 22, 2016
Messages
18
There are some ways to save some professional costs. If possible put together a sketch of a layout that you sort of like no matter how crude it is. Take some photos of styles and finishes that appeal to you. The more information one can provide the easier it will be for the designer to see your vision & reduce the time trying to learn what works for you. Usually the design goes in a different direction than the owner first envisioned but in a good way to exceed their expectations. Your home work & pile of information is invaluable in getting the conversation rolling.

The more decisive you are the easier it is to move forward. A good architect can take the information and through some discussion can imagineer some sketches for you. A good designer can offer a lot of good creativity & guidance to steer the design to a good set of plans.

You are hiring a professional so do a "job interview". You should meet to discuss the nature of work his firm does. To see if there is good chemistry & that this is a person you want to work with. The conversation should give an appreciation for the costs and services provided. Each architect has a style & flair that may work for different tastes so ask to see examples of their work. Could ask for references for others of similar sized projects that have used the firms services &/or the names of contractors that have constructed their plans. The designer should have no issue showing his work or providing references of other owners & their contractors. The conversation with other owners & contractors will give good insight into the quality of the designers work & the general satisfaction of working with the designers.

Quality work in the design & detailing make it clear to the contractor what they are bidding. Good drawings leaves less guesswork for the contractor. I have used excellent architects for a couple projects but they are human and errors will show up during construction. On occasion the contractor may offer some innovations that the owner & architect appreciate that may require a change in drawings. Costs of revisions. A project works really well if the architects and contractors are cordial with one another & everyone is receptive to open dialogue.

The conversation with the designer should include what are the costs should revisions or corrections occur. Issues may occur outside of the architects or owners control that may need drawing changes. A designer error should be corrected at a minimal cost to the owner as the designer should stand behind his work so clarify that. A situation that can occur outside the home owners, architects or contractors control for example are soil conditions. The soils conditions upon excavation may be different than expected & require a foundation design change so what would the rates be for modifying the design.

What are the services that they provide as some will manage the project completely for a fee. The architect or his representatives will review the construction progress & approve or deny the contractors progress payments. A good firm will look at revisions and estimate the costs of the change to see if the contractor is reasonable. The architects can issue scope changes & require the contractor to estimate the costs that are submitted to the owner for approval. A good ethical contractor is also worth his weight in gold if he will manage the changes properly and leverages the costs with his subs. I have had it where the general contractor looks at the changes & reorganizes the labor costs and materials to ensure his subs cost out the changes fairly.

This was an interesting thread.
All the best on your project.
Glenn
 
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John Timmins

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857
Location
Flagler Beach, FL
Since my original posting not much has happened. The architect told me he was busy for a couple of months and I'm OK with that.

Meanwhile I have gathered pictures of homes I like and I have a pretty good drawing of the downstairs and garage - where I want doors and windows etc. Basically I want a one bedroom house with all my wive and I need. There will be stairs to two bedrooms, basic bathroom with a tub, and a small TV room upstairs for guests. Two air conditioning systems are what I want. Also this architect is from Miami and used to do South Florida design, so he knows the style I am looking for, a real modern , streamline/deco look.

I agree that this has been a real education reading this topic ! Thanks again !

I will start another topic about a contractor who won't pull my neighbor's demolition permit. He's across from me and wants to tear his house down and build new like I am......same architect.
 

patterg2003

Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
18
Sounds like you know what you want & have the right person to deliver the plans for you. That is a major leap forward in a good direction.

A couple months will go quick. This is time if you have not done a lot of research on energy efficiency is to do some reading. Even in a warm climate insulation & windows are good ways to keep operating costs down. Each area has levels of insulation that give a good return by saving on the energy to heat or cool. There usually is information on what is a the best amount of insulation for the return on the investment and the point where adding more insulation gives no return on the investment. Adding insulation & good windows at the construction is the lowest cost & the payback can be calculated. (ie) The additional cost for the added insulation over standard local cost may be paid back by the energy savings in say 5 - 7 years and after that it is money in the pocket for the for the life of the building. There are apps for these calculations.

If the windows are priced out quite often the difference between dbl pane low e and triple pain low e is minor. I upgraded my windows 15 years ago to triple low e & the difference between the windows was $150 for the window package. Everyone will say that there is not much difference but my experience is that before the upgrade we had a large dble pane low e and some cold could be felt radiating from the glass. The same window now is triple pane low e and there is no cold an inch away at -40. Replacing the regular double pane windows with low e and adding a little more insulation in the attic dropped the heat bill significantly and when we put in the central AC a smaller unit met the demands for the house. My point is if there is a minor cost to upgrade to the superior windows then seriously consider it.
I was in Atlanta one hot humid day when there was a tornado watch. I was in awe of the condensation collecting on the glass and running off the windows at the Sheraton hotel. It was visible evidence of a heavy energy bleed through the glass.

Exciting times. Enjoy the process, look a week, month and months ahead as you go to keep the work organized & it will come together relatively stress free. Any issues popping up will be seen far enough out in that they can be resolved so the work runs like a well oiled machine. It is easier to look after issues when they are resolved far enough away that they do not trip up the work. The contractors have to do that for you as well. Nothing is more upsetting than a contractor telling me that a project has stalled because he was not looking at the next few days work and making sure there are no issues for the crew that I could have fixed. Looking ahead keeps the project running like clockwork and low stress.

Well. My coffee is finished & I need to go help my son at his house.

All the best.
 
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aircommuter

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Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
142
Location
Greeley Hill, CA
You already have a lot of info. The one thing I did not see or may have missed is that in many juridictions the plans would not do you any good again as they only accept wet signatures on the architechs and or engineers stamp. I like the one your other repliers said buy plans close to what works and just have your person modify as needed, sometimes
I have the original plan designer do the changes. Here in my crummy state all houses need a structual engineer stamp with wet signature anyway. So once I get a plan I have to have him add structual details. That also makes him the engineer of record, which is an insuance cost he has to pay.
 
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