I'm a Billionaire?

[twertsy]

How does this guy come up with his prices?? I'm a very wealthy man if he gets anywhere close to the prices he's asking. This is eBay's listing of "newly listed" tool catalogs. Same guy for most of them.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_sop=10&_nkw=Tool+Catalog&_pgn=2&_skc=50&rt=nc

 

[walrus]

Cool, he has one from peavey, 44 pages of cant dogs for 300 bucks

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[DadsTools]

I'm genuinely impressed. If he can get those kinds of numbers, more power to him. I recall in the office furnishings business we had exorbitant priced items just for the filthy rich--there's no pride of ownership for them without it. If we have very rich rare tool collectors and it's a very rare catalog on a hot collectible tool line, boom! Maybe you are wealthier than what you thought! Gotta give him credit for giving it as shot.

 

[twertsy]

I'm genuinely impressed. If he can get those kinds of numbers, more power to him. I recall in the office furnishings business we had exorbitant priced items just for the filthy rich--there's no pride of ownership for them without it. If we have very rich rare tool collectors and it's a very rare catalog on a hot collectible tool line, boom! Maybe you are wealthier than what you thought! Gotta give him credit for giving it as shot.

I suppose, but he's been listing them at those prices for months. As far as I can tell (haven't literally inventoried his listings) he hasn't sold a single one. It's always the same cats.

 

[Marctrees]

So maybe not everyone knows this ? but I went to the link in post #1, then selected "sold listings" on left, then sorted by price high to low, and end up with this below... Marc

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...omplete=1&LH_Sold=1&_nkw=Tool+Catalog&_sop=16

 

[DadsTools]

So maybe not everyone knows this ? but I went to the link in post #1, then selected "sold listings" on left, then sorted by price high to low, and end up with this below... Marc

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...omplete=1&LH_Sold=1&_nkw=Tool+Catalog&_sop=16

Alright! Love those numbers! Twertsy, congrats dude! I know you have tons of this stuff!!! If you already have those catalogs scanned, get going on them--you got a ton of money there! Of course, they may not be worth so much if they're published online already, don't know, but it's worth a shot. You can buy oodles of old tools with that kind of dough.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Holy ****. EDIT: I was questioning the precedence, edited and lost it, but it looks like there is one for the antique era. Thanks for the link, Marc.

 

[DadsTools]

I suppose, but he's been listing them at those prices for months. As far as I can tell (haven't literally inventoried his listings) he hasn't sold a single one. It's always the same cats.

Dude, all you gotta do is sell ONE to make the whole shebang worthwhile. Something is worth what someone will pay. I know it looks outrageous, but maybe what you do is worth more than what you thought.

I've been involved with professional sales and marketing on some level most of my adult life. Numbers like that to an old sales pro are almost orgasmic. Think=the robot used car salesman on Futurama when the rich girl comes into the showroom and offers to pay more than list for the car. That's the ticket!

 

[twertsy]

Wow, I should have checked the sold listings. Unbelievable people would be willing to pay that much for a catalog. Could I? Sure. Would I? Hell no. I'd "consider" paying about $100 for a first year Blackhawk, Cornwell, MTF, Herbrand, Hinsdale, Bog, S-K, or Plomb, or a '42 MAC, or the final "hole filler" catalog to complete an inventory, but that would be my max on tool catalogs.

 

[Bronson]

Marctrees.
Your avatar creeps me out.
That is all.

 

[thehorse13]

Urgh. The secret is out. lol

I always look for old catalogs and things like this at the flea markets and sales. It's how I fund my porcelain sign purchases.

 

[DadsTools]

In looking at these sold listings, there's a sort of logic to them. Many are to produict lines where the items would sell for good money today. There's some big money goes out to the right hand planes or axes. Simmons was big in the high-end tools, especially saws, and IIRC, the year is kind of critical for a collector of their items. Can understand the Sargent too--could be very little available info elsewhere on their early planes. Don't get the Nazal, but apparently the five bidders did, especially the two that drove it up (love it when two bidders are hot to trot on the same item....kaching!). Also broad-range hardware suppliers from the turn of the century--sometimes certain makers didn't publish their own catalogs, and these general-line ones are the only info source. The Atlas Explosives calatog is just plain cool both for the subject matter and artwork--a crossover collectible for sure. I especially appreciate the piano parts catalogs because I did a stretch for a short time working for a company that rebuilt antique pipe organs and player pianos--big bucks! Based on the higher items, some of the Buy-it-Nows down the list undersold themselves! Old sales saying: Go In High and Watch 'em Buy!" You have a $750 item that you'll cut a deal to someone for $500, that's a buy! Gotta love it! I know what I'm going to hunt those estate sale bookshelves for now.

 

[3baygarage]

This is good, this is good! Now everyone will start listing them by the armful for hundreds apiece, and when they don't sell after some time because they are all so high, they will come down to a few bucks apiece.

I see what you did Twertsy, .

 

[DOlsen]

That eBay seller is Martin J Donnelly.(www.mjdtools.com), the antique tool dealer and auctioneer.

 

[3baygarage]

J/k. I love to look for old catalogs, but I want them myself, certainly not to sell. I rarely find any old ones, at least those that interest me. It would hardly pay an arm and a leg for one though. I prefer to find them cheap. Nice that so many are available to read online now.

Other than reference, I think a lot of it is a window shopping thing. That's what I liked about them when I started with Craftsman, Snap On, and Mac. No different than a kid at Christmas with his nose in the Brand Names book looking at toys.

Twertsy, I see your point. I'm constantly frustrated with EBay sellers trying to get rich. There are a few items I've been watching for months, one maybe close to a year, and the price never comes down. When will these people get the hint? If nobody buys your junk, oops I mean treasure, after months and months then you're asking too much! Lower the d@&$!prices for crying out loud. And, there's this thing called flat rate shipping that many people still refuse to acknowledge. With costs always on the rise, nobody wants to pay 5 or 10 dollars more than they have to for shipping! Good grief!

End rant

Edit: DOlsen, that explains a lot then. I've looked through their auction listings before too. Never visited though.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I dare say that your $100 max would be the max for a vintage tools catalog from a major mid-century automotive tool maker for a lot of serious tool guys I know, Todd, this one included, even for a "rare" one (hard to find, early, etc).

But before everyone goes too crazy, I encourage a deeper look.

Use Marc's link to the SOLD items, realize that it's sorted in descending order, and browse the titles, years, and prices.

Sure, there are some big ticket items on page 1. But understand that everything on page 2 through page 10 - mainly "paper" (which is the market term for collectible books, catalogs, documents, etc), and a few CD's (he sells scans that way) - is under $50.

An 1891 Hammacher-Schlemmer catalog (piano tools!) sold for $675 (BIN).

A 1920 Nazel (hammers) catalog sold for $260 (18 bids, 4 bidders).

An 1899 R. Melhuish (machinery) catalog sold for $129 (12 bids)

A 1921 Anaconda Copper Mining Hardware (rifles, jackknives, lamps, etc) sold for $125 (1 bid)

A 1924 Hartman Brothers (axe handles) catalog sold for $109 (6 bids, 6 bidders).

Before you think it's strictly a function of age (antique era), note that a 1914 Disston sold for $39.95 (2 bidders, 2 bids) and a 1919 Peck, Stow, and Wilcox sold for $34.00 (7 bids, 3 bidders).

Now those kinds of prices are much more familiar and typical.

Note also that a 1937 Snap-On sold for $94 (BIN) and a 1939 Plomb #17-B sold for $55 (BIN).

A 1950 Belknap Hardware store catalog (including 'Bluegrass' house brand tools, made by others) sold for $75 (BIN).

Those are a little high, but also more typical.

The difference is that the crazy high prices are being commanded by obscure and/or specialty Mfgrs or distributors. This niche has always been out there. The buyers are typically not tool guys. They are historical "paper" collectors. And if they're tool guys, they're fetish tool guys. There is a big difference between having an affinity for Bonney and an affinity for R. Melhuish.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I also went back to Todd's first post with the link to the guy's current listings. Note that there are no more auctions. All BINs, all very high prices, and not only for the uncommon names, but for some of the older catalogs from more common names as well. I remain skeptical of those prices. If he gets $475 for the 1924 Mossberg catalog, $425 for the 1926 ATHA catalog, and $380 for the Goodell-Pratt #6 catalog, I'd reconsider my position, get officially excited, and go inventory my catalogs!

 

[twertsy]

Yeah, not a bunch of big $$ sellers Greg, but a few. I really NEED a '42 MAC catalog so I might go a bit crazy on that one. The others I listed I just want for the cool factor of having the first year cat. If I recall, I paid $85 for the 1886 Bonney Cat, but it was just too cool! Plus, a treasure trove of information inside the front cover alone! One member here just found (not ebayed, found) a 1919 Blackhawk cat, along with some other paraphernalia if I recall correctly.......I'd step up for that lot too. I've only found about 6 or eight of my catalogs in the wild, and they were all in one lot. They're not easy to find. Another ebay seller just bought out a HW store and has been selling some good ones, I think I've bought like 15 already and they're on the way. At $15 each, I'll buy them to fill holes all day long!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Roger that, Todd.

In looking at these sold listings...

I see that I missed your post as I was typing mine up and posting it, Dads. Didn't want you to think I wasn't acknowledging that you took the same approach first.

That eBay seller is Martin J Donnelly.(www.mjdtools.com), the antique tool dealer and auctioneer.

Thanks for the info and link, D. Ironically, that's who sold at auction one of the only three Onli-1 wrenches I have ever seen on the web, a subject that occupied my hobby time these last few weeks. I also see his name come up on WorthPoint searches fairly often. Serious collectibles only.

 

[DadsTools]

Makes more sense now with MJ Donnelly. These guys know what they can sell these items for to the REAL high rollers! They're dealing in REAL antique tools.

 

[DadsTools]

No prob, Private!

I look at these items a little differently because (as I've mentioned before) I've been in sales, marketing and management on some level just about all my adult life, some of it hard, cold selling. Gives me a different perspective. WHY NOT TRY TO "GET RICH" ON EBAY??? Why the hoot not??? If the buyer will pay it, OK! So one may have a limited budget, but there's only so many of these old catalogs out there. It's why lobster cost $14-16 a pound where I am. I'm disappointed I can't buy it, but I understand it.

A friend of the family recently found a stash of her Grandfather's woodworking tools from the last half of the 1800s to the early 1900s. They had to be consigned to an auctioneer like Donnelly. Why? Because they got poop on eBay! Saw a set of five late 1800s edging and moulding planes sell on eBay as a lot for $42.00. FORTY-TWO DOLLARS! Are you kidding? Forget about sellers trying to get rich on eBay...how about all the cheapskate buyers trying to steal items for next to nothing??? Look for sold listings on eBay for Live Auctions and then compare to the same item in a regular auction--they sell for 3-4x the money at the LA for the same ****** item.

I was lucky one time with a particular 4" S-K adjustable with a Lectrolite connection. Because of my extensive research into Lecrolite, I knew it was a rare variation. Happened to find a lone buyer who was very serious about his collection and recognized it for what it was. Got $27.00 for it, and I thought I was being bold with such a BIN. Guy would have probably paid $40. I paid $1 from another picker! Oh yeah!

Got a vintage lamp up for sale right now with an equestrian connection. Couldn't sell it at $60. Dropped to $40, still no takers. But if I were selling it to the high rollers in the elitist world-class dressage market, easy C-note.

eBay items are guaranteed to sell at a lower price than any other venue. Same items sell for almost double on etsy--completely different crowd with more discriminating tastes and perspective, other than 'how cheap can I get it'.

There is a whole class of high-roller antique tool collectors who probably never 'soil' themselves by mingling with the peasant tradesmen like us in GJ. Auction houses like MJD know their clientele, and that clientele travels in those exclusive circles. They buy things that will impress OTHER rich people, not us.

 

[twertsy]

My apologies to Martin. I didn't realize those were his. That said, I still think those prices are a bit over the top.

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[Empty Pockets]

This is good, this is good! Now everyone will start listing them by the armful for hundreds apiece, and when they don't sell after some time because they are all so high, they will come down to a few bucks apiece.

I see what you did Twertsy, .

That's when I buy.... Just your average bottom fisher

3Bay- Don't expect them to come to Erie county, Think of just east of Monroe County. LOL

 

[baumgrenze]

Here is one more perspective. In 1970, I came to Palo Alto to work for the new startup company, Zoecon, spun out of Syntex, to explore new ways to control insects. To help pay the bills the businessmen acquired Thuron in Dallas, the company that made the first pet flea and tick collars. There were 3 lines, a discount store line, a hardware and feed store line, and one sold exclusively by vets. The boxes were different but the product was the same in all of them. Those of us who did research had trouble accepting the logic that some customers needed to pay way more because their dog and/or cat was way more precious. We were doing them a favor by charging them a huge premium so they could know they were giving their pet the very best care possible. Caveat emptor.

After multiple mergers and divestments the company is no longer recognizable. Perhaps the brands persist. I've not looked in years. I've been happily retired for 20 years.

baumgrenze

 

[DadsTools]

Here is one more perspective. In 1970, I came to Palo Alto to work for the new startup company, Zoecon, spun out of Syntex, to explore new ways to control insects. To help pay the bills the businessmen acquired Thuron in Dallas, the company that made the first pet flea and tick collars. There were 3 lines, a discount store line, a hardware and feed store line, and one sold exclusively by vets. The boxes were different but the product was the same in all of them. Those of us who did research had trouble accepting the logic that some customers needed to pay way more because their dog and/or cat was way more precious. We were doing them a favor by charging them a huge premium so they could know they were giving their pet the very best care possible. Caveat emptor.

After multiple mergers and divestments the company is no longer recognizable. Perhaps the brands persist. I've not looked in years. I've been happily retired for 20 years.

baumgrenze

Bingo. They knew their clientele.

When I managed a large office furniture showroom, we'd always have at least one super-expensive executive desk set. On more than one occasion I had to pull a salesman aside after a presentation because he was telling the customer that the desk was overpriced and trying to steer him to a cheaper alternative. I'd have to tell them, "Who are YOU to decide how much that executive is going to spend? And by what criteria do you judge that set as too expensive? Yours? That's why he's the executive and you're the floor-walker--he thinks differently than you. Let HIM decide how much he wants to spend. If he told you he wanted to impress the other executives that walk in his office, which set would you then suggest he buy?"

Wealthy people hang with wealthy people. And just as we have threads in here where someone posts, "Look what I got for $50," they're going to say, "Look what I got for ten grand!" The $700 catalog is far more impressive and provides an exceptional pride of ownership when compared to the $39 catalog--they light their cigars with them, just because they can.

Yep...MJD knows their clientele.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I don't agree with the implication that high prices (for antique or vintage catalogs, tools, machines, etc) are completely artificial - i.e., exclusively a function of appeal to a wealthy ego.

Collectible catalogs have "going rates" just like collectible tools, formed dynamically over time as exchanges occur between sellers and buyers, and it's a function of desire and availability (rarity). You can absolutely track those "going rates" or "informed market values", passively (following eBay auctions and sales), or actively (participating in auctions and sales).

Heck, Worthpoint's name and entire business model - to collect auction and sales data for an item and present it in list form by date and price - is built on tracking a thing's worth. Sure, there are spikes, and they are usually the result of someone consciously paying "too much" just because he wants to and can. But that doesn't mean that the "too much" price always becomes the new going rate, although, if it starts a trend, it can.

I'll give you an example from my niche.

I am a WWII picker. I buy for my own collections, but I also buy to sell, mainly extras, and mainly to fund more collecting. I don't shop or sell on eBay. I troll estate sales and flea markets - because they're usually uninformed sellers. And I sell in "club" environments on esoteric websites where WWII guys gather. Primarily tools, and primarily on-board vehicle toolkit tools. Guys with restored or preserved Willys MB jeeps like to have the accessories, such as the tools, as much as guys with Model T's or Packards, etc.

This is a great example of a very informed market. Serious sellers and buyers knowing, generally, what everything is worth, like water finding its level resting place.

A correct screwdriver can go for as high as $100 right now. Correct tire pumps at least $100 depending on condition. A complete set of five DOE wrenches runs about $200 to $300 depending on brand. The smallest wrench (an ISN 723) can be as much as $125 by itself, again, depending on brand. Rarer items - such as the wheel puller or tire chains, much, much more. I once sold a brake bleeder wrench, no bigger than your little pinky, made of pressed steel, for $700. Those prices are not artificially inflated, and they're not a function of bragging rights - though plenty of bragging is certainly done. They're a function of desire and availability (rarity).

I'm not a catalog collector, per se, but I've been watching vintage (1930's and 40's) catalogs for awhile, mainly from automotive tool makers. I don't know much about other catalogs (machinery, specialty tools, etc), and even less about antique era (late 1800's to 1920) catalogs for tools or machinery, etc. But I'd bet there are informed market values, just like there are for tools or knives, etc, EDIT: and I'd bet the Pricing Guides Mark Donnelly is also selling on eBay include that kind of information. EDIT 2: I still think some of his prices are high. As I said, if he gets $400+ for those Mossberg, Atha, and G-P cats, I'll eat crow - and immediately adjust my own catalog prices accordingly.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Speaking of Hammacher Schlemmer & Co., I spotted this warehouse dolly at my Early Bird flea market this morning. Dates to 1883 or later.

View media item 74223
View media item 74224
The vendor had the impression that this dolly was one of the items they were selling in their store or famous catalog. He might be right. But I am inclined to think they may have been using it in their warehouse. Either way, a cool piece.

 

[bushmechanic]

You have to be careful with sold listings. Lots of nonsense there.

Search specific items, and scroll down to see what they actually end up selling for.

 

[555]

There is sometimes big money in old literature. I had a "The Art of Custom Painting" booklet put out by Metalflake in the 70s. I mentioned it on one of the motorcycle forums and was swamped with offers to purchase. I finally sold it for $300 to a guy in Japan.

 

[Marctrees]

You have to be careful with sold listings. Lots of nonsense there.

Search specific items, and scroll down to see what they actually end up selling for.

Bush - Please explain. Marc

 

[rickhigginshtbr]

think I ran into that guy before picking... didn't realize some catalogs were selling for that much! Time to go search some antique book stores!

 

[Fretters]

Bush - Please explain. Marc

I believe he's referring to completed/finished listings. Sold listings are the ones which will say what items actually sold for.

 

[Gittgo]

Well. It IS an Idiocracy http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1918340_1918344_1918341,00.html

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I believe he's referring to completed/finished listings. Sold listings are the ones which will say what items actually sold for.

Marc's link is to the seller's "sold" listings. Perhaps bushmechanic commented without reading the whole thread.

Having said that, even "sold" listings sometimes need further scrutiny, especially when they're suspiciously high. Unscrupulous sellers have been known to bid up their auctioned items with the help of equally unscrupulous friends. The item sells but it never changes hands if it sells to someone within the conspiracy. I checked many of these before I knew who the seller was and they looked legit, with plenty of bidders with different bidder ID's.

 

[bushmechanic]

I believe he's referring to completed/finished listings. Sold listings are the ones which will say what items actually sold for.

Good catch, but I do indeed mean sold items.

When you dig into the sold section, you will see items that "sold". Sometimes they did, and sometimes they didn't. Sometimes people didn't pay, and sometimes they bid up the price to discourage a seller. Sometimes it's the seller messing with things.

The easiest way to spot most of that **** is click on the item that sold. If, at the top, you see that the seller has relisted it, click that link. Then follow that $2,000 item right down to $350.

You run into enough of it as it is, but get into anything collectible, and that sale data becomes less and less useful the more the prices climb. The main thing is to be sure you don't go looking for something to buy, thinking it'll sell well when it's not going to.

There's an entire non-active economy out there revolving around this nonsense.

 

[Marctrees]

Bush - Thank you, did not know, will look at that.

Thanks again ! Marc

 

[bulwnkle]

Maybe I should switch from selling car parts on eBay to catalogs.

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