Impact gun, low torque?

[sberry]

I got a big box of stuff from a sale early on, have H and bought a couple 3 or 4 boxes of plugs for tools, the cost to change would be significant but the stuff is hard to work. My bud used auto stuff, his seemed to work too.

 

[JerryC]

High Flow Coupler discussion
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303317

 

[freebo86]

This is pretty good and goes after the low hanging fruit. All pretty much cheap easy and maybe even free.
But as to the OP, if it was working yesterday, quit all in a week its highly unlikely it wore out but that something went wrong?
I know a bunch of auto body types, shops, mechanics and even a plumber don't give a dam about all this fitting size stuff, they plug it in, it works, they use it. The trades been using this stuff forever since they invented it but now wre suddenly decide it wont work for us in the burbs?
I will admit I would change if I was starting again today for a couple reasons and the modern hi flow may serve 3/4 tools anyway. Ease of connection would be another one and simple design skills would be another as I learned to supply more with less and get rid of the hy7drant idea way in the beginning and go to hose reels for these applications like they should be anyway, save the extra from connectors and fittings and apply to reels right up front.

Just to clear things up. So lets go back 6months, I got my hands on this compressor and then I was given a hand me down 1/2 impact I referred to in this topic. I got excited, the sky is the limit now that I have air tools!!!

Well first little task I figured lets give this gun a try.. believe I tried some 15 or 16mm nuts to break free and it failed. I was like Thought to myself, all the boys rave about air tools - why my gun no good?

Anyways the gun had been sitting in my fathers tool closet for probably 7-8 years since last used if not more. So after looking into a bit further I realized that it says to "add oil daily" so i added some oil and it seemed to work a bit better. Fast forward to a couple of months ago as i wanted to do a tire change and realized that with the gun you really have to hold the trigger to do anything.. seems takes a lot of air to get anything done hence training the tank. figured it can't be normal so chalked it up as a worn out gun?

Well last week I was doing another change (yes I know I have a lot of cars) and this issue came up again and I figured well lets investigate a bit further was going on. I see CH, Husky guns constantly pop up on classifieds for fairly cheap so I figured if that's all it was I'd grab a second hand gun..

 

[Sticks McGee]

When I got my 30 gal oiless compressor a couple years ago (my wife at the time bought it for me) I plugged it in in the garage and turned it on. The compressor was rated to put out 150psi. I let it pump all the way until it cut out. I plugged in my impact (IR231) and took it to a couple of lugnuts. it was a freaking dog. No guts. I started thinking "this junk *** compressor" I really wanted a 220v 80 gallon stationary. My brother in law has an older version of this small compressor. I asked him how his worked. he said he had no problem taking lugs off with his 1/2" impact. I started taking a closer look at the plumbing on mine, the plumbing on his, the plumbing on several in stores and the plumbing on my compressor at work (IR 80 gal horizontal running on 460v)

What I found was that the plumbing on mine was running out and going thru a tiny 1/8" hose that fed a tiny manifold then thru the regulator and finally to the fittings that I plugged my air hose into. The other compressors I looked at did not have this set-up of the tiny hose/manifold ****. I decided to put a T fitting in as close to the compressor tank as I could and use the fittings that were the same size as my outlet pipe. I have the high flo fittings on everything at work and decided to put these on at home if for nothing else just so all my stuff was the same. I fired up the compressor and when it cut out, I plugged in again and it was night and day difference. The impact worked as it should. Now with 30 gal of air on reserve versus the 80 I have at work the compressor cycles more often but typically I can get 5-6 lugnuts off before the compressor ever kicks back on. I never have to wait for the compressor to catch up unless I am running a die grinder for a very long period of time.

Collectively all of the restrictions between the tank and the inlet of the impact made a difference in the power output of it (with the available pressure basically the same) I am not saying a more expensive larger compressor isnt better than my 30 gal oiless (it surely is) but with a decent impact, decent pressure and decent flow of this air available to the gun, it should take lugnuts off pretty easily.

 

[sberry]

Some of the guns have an internal regulator, a power adjustment. DA sanders have the same thing. My impact has a 4 speed click stop but had older cheaper ones that it seems had a screw type. Its been a while and don't recall the details, the CP I use has full power in reverse.

 

[freebo86]

When I got my 30 gal oiless compressor a couple years ago (my wife at the time bought it for me) I plugged it in in the garage and turned it on. The compressor was rated to put out 150psi. I let it pump all the way until it cut out. I plugged in my impact (IR231) and took it to a couple of lugnuts. it was a freaking dog. No guts. I started thinking "this junk *** compressor" I really wanted a 220v 80 gallon stationary. My brother in law has an older version of this small compressor. I asked him how his worked. he said he had no problem taking lugs off with his 1/2" impact. I started taking a closer look at the plumbing on mine, the plumbing on his, the plumbing on several in stores and the plumbing on my compressor at work (IR 80 gal horizontal running on 460v)

What I found was that the plumbing on mine was running out and going thru a tiny 1/8" hose that fed a tiny manifold then thru the regulator and finally to the fittings that I plugged my air hose into. The other compressors I looked at did not have this set-up of the tiny hose/manifold ****. I decided to put a T fitting in as close to the compressor tank as I could and use the fittings that were the same size as my outlet pipe. I have the high flo fittings on everything at work and decided to put these on at home if for nothing else just so all my stuff was the same. I fired up the compressor and when it cut out, I plugged in again and it was night and day difference. The impact worked as it should. Now with 30 gal of air on reserve versus the 80 I have at work the compressor cycles more often but typically I can get 5-6 lugnuts off before the compressor ever kicks back on. I never have to wait for the compressor to catch up unless I am running a die grinder for a very long period of time.

Collectively all of the restrictions between the tank and the inlet of the impact made a difference in the power output of it (with the available pressure basically the same) I am not saying a more expensive larger compressor isnt better than my 30 gal oiless (it surely is) but with a decent impact, decent pressure and decent flow of this air available to the gun, it should take lugnuts off pretty easily.

I'm going to post a picture when I get home. But I believe I have this same type of setup on mine...

My unit is actually oiled unit.
Thanks for this tip!

 

[Sticks McGee]

Just to clear things up. So lets go back 6months, I got my hands on this compressor and then I was given a hand me down 1/2 impact I referred to in this topic. I got excited, the sky is the limit now that I have air tools!!!

Well first little task I figured lets give this gun a try.. believe I tried some 15 or 16mm nuts to break free and it failed. I was like Thought to myself, all the boys rave about air tools - why my gun no good?

Anyways the gun had been sitting in my fathers tool closet for probably 7-8 years since last used if not more. So after looking into a bit further I realized that it says to "add oil daily" so i added some oil and it seemed to work a bit better. Fast forward to a couple of months ago as i wanted to do a tire change and realized that with the gun you really have to hold the trigger to do anything.. seems takes a lot of air to get anything done hence training the tank. figured it can't be normal so chalked it up as a worn out gun?

Well last week I was doing another change (yes I know I have a lot of cars) and this issue came up again and I figured well lets investigate a bit further was going on. I see CH, Husky guns constantly pop up on classifieds for fairly cheap so I figured if that's all it was I'd grab a second hand gun..

Any way to take your gun to a shop you trust and let them try it on their system? Where are you located? Maybe someone close to you could bring their known good gun and try it on your system?

 

[sberry]

I agree collectively it can be a problem and those small comps can have some tiny stuff on them. It can be worth a little re plumbing and in one of these threads it was mentioned that they may swap some regulators but ones from small pancakes are not going to be sufficient for 1/2 air gun.
But I mention this elsewhere,,, where one feels that a connector may be adding to a problem resist the temptation to add 2 of them, there seems to be a trend to more efficient fittings so we can add more along the way vs screwing every one as simple as it can be done.
The new hose systems are not quite as good as black in the sizing sense, the barbs are internal, the hose is a hose size while pipe is larger with female fittings. In a shop shop where 3/4 gun may be a concern at some point would be using the 3/4 in long runs if using the flex hose and 3/4 in pipe if it was for inch impacts in a truck shop.

 

[Sticks McGee]

Some of the guns have an internal regulator, a power adjustment. DA sanders have the same thing. My impact has a 4 speed click stop but had older cheaper ones that it seems had a screw type. Its been a while and don't recall the details, the CP I use has full power in reverse.

The very reason I don't like the IR231 I have at home. My 2135 titanium at work doesn't have that and I much prefer it..

 

[Sticks McGee]

I agree collectively it can be a problem and those small comps can have some tiny stuff on them. It can be worth a little re plumbing and in one of these threads it was mentioned that they may swap some regulators but ones from small pancakes are not going to be sufficient for 1/2 air gun.

Much agree..

 

[freebo86]

Here is some pictures of the compressor and how it's all plumbed.

Jacking up the regulator (ignore the pics I know it's not at max as the tank wasn't full) if I pull the trigger and I'm at 105psi I don't even drop down to 90psi. Not sure whoever said that once trigger is pulled I'd drop 40-50psi was being sarcastic or what but I certainly don't have that issue

 

[sberry]

I don't even drop down to 90psi. Not sure whoever said that once trigger is pulled I'd drop 40-50psi was being sarcastic or what but I certainly don't have that issue

Measure it at the other end of the hose. Doesn't matter much what it says at the tank, the tool only knows what it sees, wants 90 at the inlet for full power. Measured like this,,,,,, after the hose and all connections. Small connects actually keep it from dropping as much where you were reading, open it up and it will fall off. Air flow makes pressure drop, little flow, little drop, huge flow, lotso drop.
That little little copper is the unloader line, its not supply, that comes in from the tank.

 

[Infinia]

post a picture of the impact gun.
everything inline matters to a point,>> but it's the tool mostly! buy a 1/2 HF earthquake and return if it doesn't show massive improvement.

 

[sberry]

small air gun it wont make so much difference, big a lot. It would actually matter after a point more than up to a point.

 

[jdlong]

Or:
Use breaker bar.

Too Easy!

 

[Infinia]

small air gun it wont make so much difference, big a lot. It would actually matter after a point more than up to a point.

you missed the point
crappy tool moving up to massive air flow rig wont help as much as changing out the tool,

 

[sberry]

I agree, wasnt really at you, very general.

 

[freebo86]

Ah I see what you mean, but by the time i buy the fittings to plumb that sort of thing in to see the pressure at the gun I'd be half there to getting a half decent gun lol... These kinds of fittings are pricey here in Canada. but I just recalled I have the pressure gauge on the small 3gal compressor I can take those fittings off and jimmy rig something to see the pressure at the tool - will report back tomorrow night hopefully!

Seems moving around some of that stuff on the compressor I got a small leak now, it fills to 125 and then without anything connected I drop a bit of pressure so I'm going to have to seal up my connections as I know it wasn't leaking anywhere before so something must of moved a bit.

Also, I want to rig up a DIY intake to quiet that bish down some. Being a 120V unit I know that will be hard, but at least this unit is oiled so I guess there might be some hope..

 

[KMdef9]

Look at amazon for parts, they are very cheap, certainly not half as expensive as a new gun. There's nothing wrong with the HF parts, the I.D. of the 3/8 from them is just as wide, if not wider than 1/4 high flo fittings at a fraction of the price. The disconnects might be higher quality, but for home owner use they're just fine.


I wouldn't go the route of what some others are suggesting, "just crank up the regulator to till it works". This is going to make your comp cycle way more often, shortening the life of it.

When and if you buy a new gun, look up how much CFM is needs. Cheaper guns typically will be more air hogs than pricey ones, but once again, if you don't mind your comp running the whole time, it doesn't matter.

 

[freebo86]

So I hooked up a pressure gauge right before the gun and it reads 115-120psi when idle. Once I pull the trigger it drops to about 50-60psi as others have mentioned.

So what's my next course of action here?

1) Start changing fittings?
2) Change gun? I also noticed this gun seems to be leaking some oil from the side of it where it seals the back part of it.
3) Different hose? Tried one of those 50ft hoses but also tried one of those coiled up cheap hoses same psi's with both.
4) burn garage down?

 

[sberry]

I wouldn't go the route of what some others are suggesting, "just crank up the regulator to till it works". This is going to make your comp cycle way more often, shortening the life of it.

What would you suggest he do then?

 

[freebo86]

Just went out to mess around with the plumbing. The little piece thats right after the regulator and before the quick connect on the compressor has a small set screw - well that set screw was a bit closed off its almost like a small shut off valve.

I've removed everything after the pressure gauge and just have a quick connect now. No more regulator or other connectors.

Question, you guys recommend the hi flow couplings - these hi flow couplings are 3/8s? Question is how do you actually get these to thread on since the threads on the unit are 1/4"?

 

[JerryC]

If I remember correctly 1/4 NPT couplings fit 3/8" hoses.
Try taking the regulator off first. I removed mine and put a quick connect in its place. Hose goes into the quick connect and if I need the regulator it plugs into the quick connect.

 

[freebo86]

If I remember correctly 1/4 NPT couplings fit 3/8" hoses.
Try taking the regulator off first. I removed mine and put a quick connect in its place. Hose goes into the quick connect and if I need the regulator it plugs into the quick connect.

I'll give this a go; no way to actually see now if there is a difference until I need to use the impact. Late next week I should be changing over another set of winter/summer wheels so that will be a test for the gun

 

[gdocktor3]

You can get 1/4" or 3/8" thread couplers and plugs, depending on thread size on hose. Then, you can buy 1/4" or 3/8" body couplers and plugs, with any size thread. Example, I have 1/4" thread plugs to thread in tool inlet, with 3/8" bodies. They're larger and have larger inside diameters. After that, the quick coupler has 3/8" threads to accept the hose with 3/8" body to accept the larger plugs. your best best is to buy a Milton hi flow set or even Husky hi flow set which includes everything you need so you're not trying to piece it together. Here's example http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-High...184364_slid_&gclid=CIqSvbWZntACFZZMDQodr6kIVQ

 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Most 1/4" or 3/8" ID air hoses use 1/4" NPT fittings, plain and simple. Those 1/4" fittings can be found in various styles... some being unique to the manufacturer. The most common and standardized style is M/I (milton/industrial). However there are also Lincoln, ARO, TF, etc... Some couplers will accept various styles, others not.

Best to stick to one style for everything.

1/2" ID hoses will have 3/8" or 1/2" NPT fittings, but they aren't recommended to be disconnected under pressure.

 

[Sticks McGee]

I wouldn't go the route of what some others are suggesting, "just crank up the regulator to till it works". This is going to make your comp cycle way more often, shortening the life of it.

Not true..The compressor currently is set to start up and pump until the cut out pressure is reached. This is before the regulator so it doesn't have anything to do with the pressure in the tank or the cut in/out pressure. The only thing the regulator does is controls the amount of air pressure that leaves the tank to your tool(s)

Here is what I would do and it should not cost you anything:

In your first pic you posted there is your tank pressure gauge and your regulator gauge. I would take the regulator off and connect your air hose directly to the output just coming off of your tank pressure gauge. See if your problem goes away. If the problem remains then it is either the hose restricting the air or the gun drawing way too much volume when you pull the trigger. If the problem DOES go away then I would install a T fitting between the two gauges and run your air hose to the impact there. You can leave the quick connect on the output of the regulator in case you need to run different tools that need much less pressure.

 

[KMdef9]

Not true..The compressor currently is set to start up and pump until the cut out pressure is reached. This is before the regulator so it doesn't have anything to do with the pressure in the tank or the cut in/out pressure. The only thing the regulator does is controls the amount of air pressure that leaves the tank to your tool(s)

Here is what I would do and it should not cost you anything:

In your first pic you posted there is your tank pressure gauge and your regulator gauge. I would take the regulator off and connect your air hose directly to the output just coming off of your tank pressure gauge. See if your problem goes away. If the problem remains then it is either the hose restricting the air or the gun drawing way too much volume when you pull the trigger. If the problem DOES go away then I would install a T fitting between the two gauges and run your air hose to the impact there. You can leave the quick connect on the output of the regulator in case you need to run different tools that need much less pressure.

Huh? The tank pressure has everything to do with the compressor cycling.

A higher pressure setting on the regulator means the compressor will turn on sooner, because your desired pressure is much closer to the compressors cut off pressure. Plus, a higher regulator setting means your air usage is going up as well, draining your pressure faster, hitting the low switch sooner.

And running unregulated pressure to a tool that could be designed not to handle such pressure could be dangerous. No way you should be running 150 psi(?) to something that may only require 90psi.

 

[Sticks McGee]

If you set the regulator to 40 psi or 120 psi it has NOTHING to do with the compressor running to it's cut out pressure. Nobody said to turn up his cut out pressure. The regulator in his set up has nothing to do with how much pressure the tank will build.

 

[KMdef9]

What would you suggest he do then?

Made my suggestion earlier in the thread, was the same as other suggested.

You can get 1/4" or 3/8" thread couplers and plugs, depending on thread size on hose. Then, you can buy 1/4" or 3/8" body couplers and plugs, with any size thread. Example, I have 1/4" thread plugs to thread in tool inlet, with 3/8" bodies. They're larger and have larger inside diameters. After that, the quick coupler has 3/8" threads to accept the hose with 3/8" body to accept the larger plugs.

That's my setup as well. Made a world of difference.

Changed the fittings on the compressor, hose real, hose and tools. Just buy the noise level I could it was flowing much better, let alone the performance.

 

[KMdef9]

If you set the regulator to 40 psi or 120 psi it has NOTHING to do with the compressor running to it's cut out pressure. Nobody said to turn up his cut out pressure. The regulator in his set up has nothing to do with how much pressure the tank will build.

Correct. It will pump to it's max pressure, typically 125 or 150. I never argued that.

People have suggested cranking the regulator up, I never said or saw anyone else say anything about cranking tank pressure up.

I never said the regulator has to do with how much psi the tank fills up with. The tank psi is the high switch. The regulator has to do with when the compressor will turn on. The regulator is the low switch, at least it is on every compressor I've dealt with.

 

[red94chev]

Bigger hose and fittings if you can. Pressure doesn't mean anything without volume.

 

[Sticks McGee]

I never said the regulator has to do with how much psi the tank fills up with. The tank psi is the high switch. The regulator has to do with when the compressor will turn on. The regulator is the low switch, at least it is on every compressor I've dealt with.

Not on his compressor or mine at home or mine here at work.

I believe the reason it was suggested (at least my thought on it) is that the fittings on my set-up at home that feed the regulator and the manifold are very small and the amount of flow coming out of the compressor was greatly reduced.

The cut in and cut out on his and mine and the big Ingersol here at work are controlled by an electric switch under the cover that is fed air pressure from the tank via a small sensing line. I believe the electric switch contacts open when the specified air pressure overcomes the spring pressure inside of the switch and makes the motor stop spinning (high cut out). When the tank pressure drops to a certain pressure the contacts close and it begins pumping again.

 

[KMdef9]

Not on his compressor or mine at home or mine here at work.

I believe the reason it was suggested (at least my thought on it) is that the fittings on my set-up at home that feed the regulator and the manifold are very small and the amount of flow coming out of the compressor was greatly reduced.

The cut in and cut out on his and mine and the big Ingersol here at work are controlled by an electric switch under the cover that is fed air pressure from the tank via a small sensing line. I believe the electric switch contacts open when the specified air pressure overcomes the spring pressure inside of the switch and makes the motor stop spinning (high cut out). When the tank pressure drops to a certain pressure the contacts close and it begins pumping again.

Ok, even then, no matter when it turns on, increasing the regulator pressure will cause any tank to drain faster, cycling the comp more often.

Get the proper volume there first.

 

[freebo86]

Just to give an update; well last night had to put on winter tires on the cars...

Well the gun I think it toast/garbage. Basically I'd pull the trigger and all I'd hear is air. If I pressed hard enough on it against the wheel stud I could prevent it from spinning all together.

I'm doubting its the compressor as I should be able to take of lugs nuts.. the gun is junk. Needless to say I basically had to undo all the lugs by hand, used the gun to just spin them off faster after the fact.

 

[top drive]

well i have a very similar as rated gun here in the uk @350f t lbs

it did as you say removed lug nuts off the van (17mm) by not before sitting there for about 20 seconds beating on it with the wrench and the land rover lugnuts just laughed at it

I was miffed but noted a mate had a dual hammer 500ft lb unit.

I had a shot of that . it removed the 27mm lugnuts off the land rover and as a final test it took the crank bolt (260ft lb rating) off my 200tdi engine without blinking and i mean - pull trigger and the bolts undone no beating on it at all .(without changing my 9mm hose - i have 30m of 9mm hose and a 1/2 inch regulator and inline oiler on that line run off a tandem 3hp /2hp set up with 125 litre reservoir. )

it seems that although the bolts were never done up to 360ftlbs the little unit was just never getting that to the bolt (owned from new)

bought the same wrench as my mate and gave it some oil , run it up to speed forwards backwards then stuck it on a lugnut and it ripped it right off quick smart.

i know you didnt want to hear buy a new wrench but for me its a more effective approach than changing all my hose reels and lines from the compressors which are buried as the compressors live in another shed.

 

[bwringer]

350 foot-pounds is a very low rating. It means a cheap tool that was piss-weak from the factory, and time and wear haven't improved things.

The other issue is that many people misunderstand how torque and friction work. If you install lug nuts and tighten them to 80 foot-pounds or whatever, it's going to take far more torque than that to overcome friction and break them free later on.

You can piss around with the plumbing all day, but even with a sewer pipe straight to the tool, it's not going to make that tool work much better.

Any decent impact will easily and quickly remove lug nuts with the setup you have (3/8" hose and standard 1/4" NPT fittings.). All you need are quick bursts of air, so a gigantic compressor isn't strictly necessary.

As mentioned above, the Harbor Freight Earthquake impact guns are a fantastic deal. Since you don't have HF, poke around at whatever tool shoppes you have up there for an equivalent -- an impact made in Taiwan and rated for around 700 foot-pounds or better.