impact sockets on air ratchet?

[Piper]

Having just recently purchased a 3/8 and 1/4 air ratchet the thought comes to mind... should I be using impact sockets on these 2 tools?

While I'm sure I put 30 or so ft-lbs on my manual ratchets I'm wondering what people do. There is no impact aspect to the air ratchet.

Just wonderin..

Piper

 

[ImportTuner]

I use impact sockets mostly, but when in a bind, the chrome sockets are ok; not that much impact on a air ratchet ...

 

[toolfreak]

You can use chrome or impact sockets on an air ratchet. I usually use chrome when I use an air ratchet.

 

[dink]

That is what impact sockets are for....for IMPACT ratchets and guns

 

[eschoendorff]

You can use chrome or impact sockets on an air ratchet. I usually use chrome when I use an air ratchet.

I agree. Air ratchets generally do not have any impact mechanism. At least I haev never seen an air ratchet that impacts.

 

[wilbilt]

Air ratchets would typically require "power drive" sockets. Not many manufacturers of these, but Snap-On used to sell them.

Chrome sockets are designed for hand operation in most cases.

 

[Canadian Charlie]

That is what impact sockets are for....for IMPACT ratchets and guns

I have to agree also

 

[kartracer55]

I agree. Air ratchets generally do not have any impact mechanism. At least I haev never seen an air ratchet that impacts.

Supposedly the IR111 does to prevent kickback, but Ive never used it.

Just use chromes. The only reason you use impacts on an impact is because the impact sockets are less likely to crack/break due to the hammering. A ratchet is constantly applying power to the socket, not impacting it. The world wont end if you use chromes on your impact either. Alot of guys use chromes on thier 3/8's impacts because they dont hit nearly as hard as a 1/2 gun

Jim

 

[Deafautotech]

i have lot of impact sockets and used it a lot than chrome because i used it on air tools as impact wrench and air ratchet that 1/4dr mac tool AR251 (rated to 40ft lbs) and 3/8dr mac tools long air ratchet that rate to 70ft lbs. i used lot of air tools for disassmbly and assembly but when almost feel like it soon get tight then i use my snap on torque wrench to do the torque ( i bought two months old snap on torque wrench for much cheap (100 dollars instead sell 250 dollars)

 

[kartracer55]

Im kind of skeptical about the actuall torque rating on a ratchet. An impact impacts the anvil to tighten the fastener, the ratchet just turns the anvil. The fastener can only get as tight as you let it get... or rather, as tight as you can hold onto the handle if you understand what im miserably attempting to describe lol. My ratchet is rated at 60ftlbs IIRC, but there is no way it actually makes 60ftlbs of torque when Im just running down a nut or something... I would snap everything if it did. It definetly stops before 60ftlbs. Could the 60ftlbs just be when the head slips if you try to further tighten or loosen the thing by hand?

Jim

 

[Deafautotech]

most of mechanic who use lot of air tools they just feel whil bolt get stop then you stop. as i use air ratchet to run bolts go on then feel when it get little tight then stop or you would get bolt broke off or stripped. that why i use torque wrench to make final torque on bolts and nuts.

 

[kartracer55]

If you use the same impacts long enough, you can get a pretty decent idea of how tight is tight. For super critical fasteners, I always double check by hand.

When I do wheel work, I never actually torque the lugs. I just have a little system and know the gun so I can usually get all of them on tight. Basically I start the lugs, ZIP ZIP ZIP ZIP ZIP and go for a quick hammer on all 5 of them. I listen to the gun and watch the socket. For my own cars, or if the customer requests, then yes, I will but it is a little overkill. I mostly do it on my own cars because alot of shops (mine included) can over tighten lugs making it a ***** to change them on the side of the road. The truck says 110ftlbs, the two cars are 95...and they get torqued to exactly that, because trying to remove those with a little tire iron from the truck definetly ***** when they get blasted down WAY tighter than they need to be

Jim

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

If you read your air ratchet manuals, they SAY to use impact sockets. Now it is common practice to see Chrome sockets used on air ratchets, and air ratchets sold in sizes, that stores do NOT carry impact sockets.


IMHO, they are just covering their (censored). Most air ratchets, WON'T break loose a bolt, WITHOUT manual assistance. And you DON'T want to use them as a torque wrench, or with a 3' prybar, LOL, so use common sense, and you should be fine. It's no different then overtorquing them on a normal ratchet.

 

[TNToy]

Wow. You guys will debate anything.

Use chrome or impact. I've never seen an air ratchet break a socket.

Kart, I'm kind of surprised you don't use a torque stick on all of those cars. They're not horribly precise, but they're a lot better than guessing.

 

[eschoendorff]

If you use the same impacts long enough, you can get a pretty decent idea of how tight is tight. For super critical fasteners, I always double check by hand.

When I do wheel work, I never actually torque the lugs. I just have a little system and know the gun so I can usually get all of them on tight. Basically I start the lugs, ZIP ZIP ZIP ZIP ZIP and go for a quick hammer on all 5 of them. I listen to the gun and watch the socket. For my own cars, or if the customer requests, then yes, I will but it is a little overkill. I mostly do it on my own cars because alot of shops (mine included) can over tighten lugs making it a ***** to change them on the side of the road. The truck says 110ftlbs, the two cars are 95...and they get torqued to exactly that, because trying to remove those with a little tire iron from the truck definetly ***** when they get blasted down WAY tighter than they need to be

Jim

Just a word of caution:

Using a gun (even with torque sticks - I hate those things) is a great way to over-torque (or worse, inconsistently torque) your lugs. And that is a great way to warp your brake rotors (especially those cheap ones coming in from China).

At the track, I would see guys warp their rotors from improper torquing of the lugs, rather than the heat generated by braking (That, and improper bedding of the brake pads and rotors will cause an uneven pad deposit on the rotor - essentially making the rotor feel warped). That is why I always use my gun to buzz the lugs on - but never let it impact. All teh actual tightening is done by hand and torque wrench.

 

[Deafautotech]

i have blue point torque sticks for all models.

 

[wilbilt]

That is why I always use my gun to buzz the lugs on - but never let it impact. All teh actual tightening is done by hand and torque wrench.

Absolutely. I torque all lugs by hand, and did so when I was working on customers' vehicles.

Taking the extra 30 seconds to do so insures you don't have irate customers when they either couldn't get the wheel off, or worse, when it fell off on the highway.

Torque sticks are way up there on my "gimmick" list. I would never trust them.

 

[Deafautotech]

i did used torque sticks on customer vehicles and have no problem because i did use torque wrench to check to make sure it is on torque specific and it is 100 ft lbs. it is problem with air pressure and impact wrench as if air pressure in hose dont carry high pressure like 90psi or 100 psi then impact wrench will not make good impact with torque stick to meet specific. so i had torque wrench to check torque specific.

 

[wilbilt]

i did used torque sticks on customer vehicles and have no problem because i did use torque wrench to check to make sure it is on torque specific and it is 100 ft lbs. it is problem with air pressure and impact wrench as if air pressure in hose dont carry high pressure like 90psi or 100 psi then impact wrench will not make good impact with torque stick to meet specific. so i had torque wrench to check torque specific.

It's good that you check them, but why not just use the torque wrench in the first place?

 

[MAD]

Im kind of skeptical about the actuall torque rating on a ratchet. An impact impacts the anvil to tighten the fastener, the ratchet just turns the anvil. The fastener can only get as tight as you let it get... or rather, as tight as you can hold onto the handle if you understand what im miserably attempting to describe lol. My ratchet is rated at 60ftlbs IIRC, but there is no way it actually makes 60ftlbs of torque when Im just running down a nut or something... I would snap everything if it did. It definetly stops before 60ftlbs. Could the 60ftlbs just be when the head slips if you try to further tighten or loosen the thing by hand?

Jim

I purchased a compact 3/8" air ratchet about 12 years ago and I was shocked how powerful this little thing was. It was only rated for about 40 ftlbs but it seemed to be a lot more powerful. I later realized that the air pressure in the shop where I was working was running 125- 130 psi. The 40 lb rating was at 90 psi. There were no individual regulators or gauges at the air outlets in this shop.


I have to agree that wheel lugs should always be final torqued by hand. I have started dropping my rims off at our local tire shops because I have had so many bad experiences with my lugs being over torqued by "feel".

 

[Deafautotech]

i am prefer to use torque stick to make torque specific while vehicle are on lifter as if i use torque wrench and tires will keep circle. so time is money.

 

[wilbilt]

i am prefer to use torque stick to make torque specific while vehicle are on lifter as if i use torque wrench and tires will keep circle. so time is money.

Grasp top of tire with left hand. Operate torque wrench with right hand in a slow, steady pull. I did it for many years...and I'm left-handed.

The Snap-On TQFR-series flex head torque wrenches are good for this, as the flex head gives tire clearance without using a torque-stealing extension. Use a deep socket instead of an extension when you can.

The flat profile helps, too. Often the micrometer-adjustment type will rub on the tire and change your setting. The TQFR-series have an adjustment knob on the side with a locking latch.

Of course, this thread was about using impact sockets on air ratchets...

 

[TNToy]

So it was hijacked. That always happens around here, and the original question wasn't worth debating anyway.

I torque-stick every vehicle I work on. Torque spec on our lugs is 78 ft/lb after it's converted from newton-meters. My Nitrocat 1/2" gun on setting two (out of 3) consistently cranks them down to 90-95 ft/lb.

I'd love to use a clicker on every car I work on, but it just isn't feasible. To make GOOD money as a tech, you need to be fast, efficient, and bill 1.5-2.0 hours for every hour you actually work. And that extra 5 minutes torquing lugs adds up when you work on 50 vehicles a week.

 

[Deafautotech]

i have old and used

Snap-on Torque Wrench Flex Head TQFR 250A and i loved it. snap on dealer sold this for 80.00 dollar to me as it is used. he said it is still make torque specific. so it is best deal. it make fast torque range by change by knob than twist the handle to make torque specific.

remember that time is money....

 

[kartracer55]

Has anybody seen this?
http://www.aircat.com/cms/index.php?s=content&p=trq880
Awesome for tire shops.

Yes, I know that I SHOULD be torquing lugs, but as you guys have already said... Time is money. The majority of the customer's I deal with would never even think of changing thier own tire. They just call Roadside/AAA. I have never had a comeback for warped rotors (or any reason for that matter) after I have done brakes. Partially because we use expensive rotors and because the lugs get torqued fairly evenly. I know that the guns I typically use, on thier lowest power setting, stops around 100ftlbs or so.

Like I said, I torque lugs for my personal vehicles and on friends cars simply for ease of tire changing. Yes, I SHOULD be torque lugs on customer's vehicles, but if we were to charge more for that time we lost doing so, they would ***** and complain even more. Im not going to do tons of work they are not willing to pay for if they are just one or two time customer's off the streets. We are not a charity, I enjoy what I do, but not enough to do it for free.

I was in the office when a customer called and asked if we could do an inspection for her. The guy told her in about a half hour because we were about to grab lunch. She shows up 5-10 minutes later asking why we are sitting around about to eat. My boss replies, because it is our lunch break, that is why we told you to bring it in a half hour. This ***** procedes to tell us that "because she didnt have a lunch break today, we dont need one either."

A lady came in and asked how much an oil change was. She gawked when we told her basic LOF was 25$. She said no thanks, BUT THEN proceeded to tell us how she dropped a can of pineapple juice under her car and wanted us to get it for her. I was like is she for real?

A guy called asking if we would do an inspection an hour or so before we close. Mind you, it takes about 30 minutes to get the machine calibrated/checked out with the state. But he begs and tells us how he is over due etc. and we agree to stay a few minutes late and do it for him. He shows up, walks in, and ******* about how an inspection is 79.95. He then begins to tell us how he can take it to the state for free, so why cant we inspect for free. The owner then explains that the state does it for free because the tax payers buy the equipment. We need to charge 80$ because the Dyno/Emissions machine setup costs over $30,000, not including the concrete work involved in installing it. He then has the nerve to park his car in out lot blocking TWO bays while he presumably calls other shops in the area to get a price. After seeing that we are about the lowest, he walks inside and says he will take it. We tell him to bring it back. He brought it back, we told him we couldnt take it and he would need to bring it back. We did this once more too, to make up for the hassle of setting up the machine then getting bitched at by him. Havent seen him back since

 

[ImportTuner]

Has anybody seen this?
http://www.aircat.com/cms/index.php?s=content&p=trq880
Awesome for tire shops.

Yes, I know that I SHOULD be torquing lugs, but as you guys have already said... Time is money. The majority of the customer's I deal with would never even think of changing thier own tire. They just call Roadside/AAA. I have never had a comeback for warped rotors (or any reason for that matter) after I have done brakes. Partially because we use expensive rotors and because the lugs get torqued fairly evenly. I know that the guns I typically use, on thier lowest power setting, stops around 100ftlbs or so.

Like I said, I torque lugs for my personal vehicles and on friends cars simply for ease of tire changing. Yes, I SHOULD be torque lugs on customer's vehicles, but if we were to charge more for that time we lost doing so, they would ***** and complain even more. Im not going to do tons of work they are not willing to pay for if they are just one or two time customer's off the streets. We are not a charity, I enjoy what I do, but not enough to do it for free.

I was in the office when a customer called and asked if we could do an inspection for her. The guy told her in about a half hour because we were about to grab lunch. She shows up 5-10 minutes later asking why we are sitting around about to eat. My boss replies, because it is our lunch break, that is why we told you to bring it in a half hour. This ***** procedes to tell us that "because she didnt have a lunch break today, we dont need one either."

A lady came in and asked how much an oil change was. She gawked when we told her basic LOF was 25$. She said no thanks, BUT THEN proceeded to tell us how she dropped a can of pineapple juice under her car and wanted us to get it for her. I was like is she for real?

A guy called asking if we would do an inspection an hour or so before we close. Mind you, it takes about 30 minutes to get the machine calibrated/checked out with the state. But he begs and tells us how he is over due etc. and we agree to stay a few minutes late and do it for him. He shows up, walks in, and ******* about how an inspection is 79.95. He then begins to tell us how he can take it to the state for free, so why cant we inspect for free. The owner then explains that the state does it for free because the tax payers buy the equipment. We need to charge 80$ because the Dyno/Emissions machine setup costs over $30,000, not including the concrete work involved in installing it. He then has the nerve to park his car in out lot blocking TWO bays while he presumably calls other shops in the area to get a price. After seeing that we are about the lowest, he walks inside and says he will take it. We tell him to bring it back. He brought it back, we told him we couldnt take it and he would need to bring it back. We did this once more too, to make up for the hassle of setting up the machine then getting bitched at by him. Havent seen him back since

Jim ...
I agree that some customers can be real A$$**les but there are alot of paying customers that would be happy to pay a little more to get a little more. America Tires (tires.com) for example uses a torque wrench when mounting all tires, even the ones with steel wheels. For that, I buy all my tires from them (they also have very competitive pricing plus price matching)

 

[eschoendorff]

People can ****. But remember that you take pride in YOUR work. People are unreasonable, selfish, arrogant, etc etc etc... but that doesn't change the fact that YOU know how a job is supposed to be done.

I remember dealing with customers in a former life and it can ****. I still have to deal with unreasonable parents pfrom time to time, but that is part of my job. And there are other parts of my job that MORE than make up for it.

 

[bmwpower]

Hey Jim...you've fallen into the typical garage worker mentality.

Attitudes like that are one of the reasons I started working on my own vehicles.

 

[-lecroix-]

Hey Jim...you've fallen into the typical garage worker mentality.

Attitudes like that are one of the reasons I started working on my own vehicles.

Amen. I also think it is wrong that shops "charge" for 2 hours worth of labor and only actually do 1 hour. In most businesses, practices like this are not only dishonest, they are also ILLEGAL.

Charge me for what you do, and I will more than glad to pay for it. Charge me MORE than you actually do and I will eventually catch on to your dishonesty.

And you guys wonder why Joe Q. Public rank auto techs/mechanics up there with used car salesman when it comes to shady business practices.

EDIT: Jim, just a note to let you know that this post was in no way aimed at you specifically. Sorry if it came across that way, not my intention.

 

[KeukaDan]

Amen. I also think it is wrong that shops "charge" for 2 hours worth of labor and only actually do 1 hour. In most businesses, practices like this are not only dishonest, they are also ILLEGAL.

Charge me for what you do, and I will more than glad to pay for it. Charge me MORE than you actually do and I will eventually catch on to your dishonesty.

And you guys wonder why Joe Q. Public rank auto techs/mechanics up there with used car salesman when it comes to shady business practices.

I agree, don't tell me that you don't have time to torque lug nuts, when you are billing for more hrs than you actually spent on my project. Especially when you say that 5 minutes adds up, yes it does but so do the hrs that you bill for and the work doesn't take that long. Essentially it is saying that unless you are my friend, I am not worthy of you correctly completing my job. This is dishonest business practices and there are few other businesses that would ever get away with it.

Now I know someone will say, "that is how every mechanic does it", but that doesn't make it correct or moral. Remember the adage "the customer is always right", since they pay your paycheck, this is true.

 

[toolfreak]

Hey Jim...you've fallen into the typical garage worker mentality.

Attitudes like that are one of the reasons I started working on my own vehicles.

That is one of the reasons I have always worked on my own vehicles. I can usually buy the tools and parts I need for the job cheaper than having someone else do it. Then I have a tool that I will probably never use again.

 

[TNToy]

Hey Jim...you've fallen into the typical garage worker mentality.

Attitudes like that are one of the reasons I started working on my own vehicles.

It's very tough to avoid falling into that trap. Surprisingly tough. You're trying to earn a good paycheck, and after a while you get so sick of working for free it becomes very important to cram as much good-paying work in whenever you can.

A couple of times a week, I'll have an experience that kind of re-calibrates me, so to speak. You start getting really frustrated... and then (this happened last week):

On my way to go eat with my wife, I was passed by a vehicle I had worked on that very same day. The lady was smiling and driving a vehicle which ran properly after dealing with a stumbling driveability issue on their vehicle for over a week before they could bring it in for service. That's what we're paid to do, right?

Amen. I also think it is wrong that shops "charge" for 2 hours worth of labor and only actually do 1 hour. In most businesses, practices like this are not only dishonest, they are also ILLEGAL.

Charge me for what you do, and I will more than glad to pay for it. Charge me MORE than you actually do and I will eventually catch on to your dishonesty.

You want to know a dirty little secret? There are people out there that hate the flat-rate pay system ten times more than you do. The guys who get PAID on this system.

How do you think you'd feel doing this:
A customer comes in with a 6-month old vehicle that has a bad ECM, and it's not sending power to the fuel pump relay. You push the vehicle in your bay in 110 degree heat, and spend the next hour and a half checking the fuel pump, the relay, and tracing the harness checking for a short-to-ground, etc. You eventually replace the ECU, and 2.5 hours after it rolls into your bay, it drives out running perfectly.

You then get paid 0.4 hours to replace the ECU under warranty. Maybe if the service manager goes to bat for you, you'll get 0.5 or 1.0 hours of labor on the fault-tracing.

And you think the customer hates this pay system?

The current pay system has serious faults, but if we were on standard hourly pay, I am the first one to admit we wouldn't work as fast. We get paid 4 hours on a certain job, and it takes me a little under an hour. You better believe I hustle on that one and get the customers car really to roll QUICK, because they may just dump another **** ticket on you next, and to make up for it you've gotta move fast whenever you can.

Dealership techs are often criticized for being 'parts replacers' instead of actually making repairs. That's perfectly correct. There are some things that fail from time to time on certain cars, that I could fix for free if it were my car. But we're not allowed to repair parts in most cases. For example, if a shift solenoid fails in a ******, we replace the whole thing.

Why? Well, what if you got paid 15 hours of labor to pull the ******, R&R the solenoid, and reinstall everything... and then another solenoid or the TCC failed a month down the road? That customer is expecting some kind of free service, because in their mind either you didn't fix the problem, or you should have seen this while you were in there. They don't understand that this is a completely separate failure.

Besides, the technician that works on your car doesn't want to repair your old parts, either. We really want to replace whole assemblies.

If the ****** has another failure... HE WILL WORK FOR FREE for the next day and a half dropping that transmission, replacing the failed part, and reinstalling it.

That's right, if a problem isn't fixed right the first time, you get paid 0.0 hours to make it right the second time.

So when the company you work for has to warranty the parts AND the labor... you think they're going to favor rebuilding a part with 150,000 miles on it, or replacing it with an all new unit, even though it costs the customer more money?

 

[TNToy]

I agree, don't tell me that you don't have time to torque lug nuts

I dont. I seriously dont.

...When you are billing for more hrs than you actually spent on my project. Especially when you say that 5 minutes adds up, yes it does but so do the hrs that you bill for and the work doesn't take that long.

I'm not billing anything. I'm getting paid, say, 1.8 hours to work on your car. I don't get a very big slice of that $100ish/hour you're getting charged. I need to turn WELL OVER 60 hours in a 40 hour week to make a decent paycheck.

If they changed the pay system... I would LOVE to have the time to check the oil, brakes, set the tire pressure, and torque the lugs of every car that came in for a burned-out headlamp which will pay me 0.2 hours. 0.2 hours works out to 12 minutes.

Believe me, I'd go home happier than you might believe, knowing that every car was perfect when it left my bay.

Until then... this pay system is what dealerships have come up with to make themselves a fairly decent profit and force us to work as fast as we can. So we do the best job we can in what time we have.

That 0.2 hour headlamp install? By the time you get the bulb from the parts department, walk out to the car, swap the bulb in the parking lot in 30-degree weather to save time , and walk back in... it's been 20 minutes.

So yeah, tell me how much you hate the current flawed pay system again. As someone who has their paychecks decided by it, I'm fairly sure I hate it a lot more than you do.

You only deal with it when your late-model car breaks. I get screwed by it every day.

But you know what? If I had a late-model vehicle, I wouldn't hesitate to bring it into it's respective dealership for service. Their technicians will probably have seen you're "weird, unheard-of failure" a dozen times.

For example, if a customer has a window go off-track in a 4-door sedan I work on, I stop by the parts department and have them pull 2 $5.00 parts before I ever even look at the car, and fix it in about 20 minutes. Instead of poking and prying at your leather door panels, trying to figure them out, they come off smoothly in 30 seconds and they're actually tight and rattle-free afterwards. There are 2 plastic clips that usually break off when removing the panel, and we all keep a little pile of them. In an independent shop, they'd probably end up reinstalling the panel without them, since they're not on hand. Works okay, just flexes a little more than it did before.

That's the kind of familiarity and expertise you're paying for, and it's very tough to find in an independent shop that doesn't specialize in that particular vehicle, even if they are cheaper.

 

[ImportTuner]

It's very tough to avoid falling into that trap. Surprisingly tough. You're trying to earn a good paycheck, and after a while you get so sick of working for free it becomes very important to cram as much good-paying work in whenever you can.

A couple of times a week, I'll have an experience that kind of re-calibrates me, so to speak. You start getting really frustrated... And then (this happened last week) on your way to go eat with my wife, I was passed by a vehicle I had worked on that very same day. Smiling and driving a vehicle which ran properly after dealing with a stumbling driveability issue on their vehicle for over a week before they could bring it in for service. That's what we're paid to do, right?


You want to know a dirty little secret? There are people out there that the flat-rate pay system ten times more than you do. The guys who get PAID on this system.

How do you think you'd feel doing this: A customer comes in with a 6-month old vehicle that has a bad ECM, and it's not sending power to the fuel pump relay. You push the vehicle in your bay in 110 degree heat, and spend the next hour and a half checking the fuel pump, the relay, and tracing the harness checking for a short-to-gorund, etc. You eventually replace the ECU, and 2.5 hours after it rolls into your bay, it drives out running perfectly.

You then get paid 0.4 hours to replace the ECU. Maybe if the service manager goes to bat for you, you'll get 0.5 or 1.0 hours of labor on the fault-tracing.

And you think the customer s this pay system?

The current pay system has serious faults, but if we were on standard hourly pay, I am the first one to admit we wouldn't work as fast. We get paid 4 hours on a certain job, and it takes me a little under an hour. You better believe I hustle on that one and get the customers car really to roll QUICK, because they may just dump another **** ticket on you next, and to make up for it you've gotta move fast whenever you can.

Dealership techs are often criticized for being 'parts replacers' instead of actually making repairs. That's perfectly correct. There are some things that fail from time to time on certain cars, that I could fix for free if it were my car. But we're not allowed to repair parts in most cases. For example, if a shift solenoid fails in a ******, we replace the whole thing.

Why? Well, what if you got paid 15 hours of labor to pull the ******, R&R the solenoid, and reinstall everything... and then another solenoid or the TCC failed a month down the road? That customer is expecting some kind of free service, becuase in their mind either you didn't fix the problem, or you should have seen this while you were in there. They don understand that it's a completely seperate failure.

So when the company you work for has to warranty the parts AND the labor... you think their going to favor rebuilding a part with 150,000 miles on it, or replacing it with an all new unit, even though it costs the customer more money?

Sounds like it all boils down to how good your troubleshooting skills are and to know when to replace a part that may be going bad ..

 

[TNToy]

Sounds like it all boils down to how good your troubleshooting skills are and to know when to replace a part that may be going bad ..

Glad you picked that point to re-hash.

Not really: No matter how fast you are, you lose time playing that game. So they usually just get parts thrown at them until it's fixed when they're under warranty.

Side note: Customer pay, we simply quote the customer a diagnostic fee they'll need to pay to find the problem. If there's a problem in the brake circuit that isn't fixed by replacing the bulb or fuses, we'll inform them it'll cost 0.5 hours labor to check the brake switch, the relay, the grounds, etc...

Usually it's split 50/50 between the brake switch and the relay being the problem. Sometimes, though, it's a loose pin in the relay's socket, a ground, etc. Gotta keep us on our toes.

Now, back to warranty repairs. Automakers don't pay for diagnostic time, they pay for INSTALLATION time. So they are directly responsible for all those times where guys just throw parts at a problem until the entire system is almost all-new... and the problem has gone away.

Good illustration is our power window system. If a window stops responding under warranty, we throw a master switch into the drivers door right away. Again, you don't get paid to FIND the problem, you get paid to INSTALL PARTS. Since that switch fixes it 8 times out of 10, that's where we start.

It really doesn't make sense: The automaker would SAVE money by paying for our diagnostic time versus paying for parts at $300 a pop, right?

If it's a loose wire somewhere in the door that could've been fixed for 0.5 hours of labor and a new connector crimped into the wires... (total cost? $50) why pay us in a method that encourages us to throw $500 worth of warrantied parts into the car first?

I can only assume it's because (1)They don't trust our diagnostic abilities. I have to say that even though I'm not an idiot, I wish mine were far better. Bust since I almost never get to fault-trace an electrical system, I get very little practice. But I can throw parts at problems like nobody's business.

And the other reason? I to say it, but I'm pretty sure (2) is because they suspect there are some techs out there that would start cranking out 1/2 hour diagnostic tickets on lots of cars they already know how to fix, and the automaker would have to review all of those one-by-one to keep them honest.

 

[bmwpower]

If this is the case, you're stuck doing what you're doing. I'm going to continue to service my own cars because of the system.

What gets me even more (this happened to a friend a couple of days ago), is when shops charge you for a part that DOESN'T fix the system. Why should I pay for a $100 crank sensor if it doesn't fix the problem? I'll pay for some labor in testing things our, but I sure don't want to pay for something I don't need. I told my friend it was the coil pack (not even having seen the car) since he said it looked cracked, but chose to take his fiance's car in to a shop. They proceeded to charge him over $350 to replace the crank sensor and for some diagnostics and still hadn't fixed the problem. They kept the car for 2 days doing this. He ended up changing the coil packs in subzero weather himself.

Looking back on it, he probably shouldn't have done one thing he did: write a note when dropping off the car stating that he thought the problem was a crank sensor. Big mistake...and I believe you guys touched on this before... mechanics don't like being told what the problem is. I didn't tell him to do this since I knew of the consequences. So you now know the end result.

I feel for the honest guys, but I just can't stand walking into shops anymore... it gives me the creeps.

 

[ImportTuner]

I can agree on the fact that mechanics don't like being told what the problem is ... My wife had a 1999 VW Cabrio with 50K miles on it and then all of sudden it became real loud. I went under the car and found that the exhaust downpipe had a big crack in it. Since this is part of the emission system, I had my wife take the car in to the VW dealer. First they told her, they can believe what her husband says, then charged her a $125 diagnostic fee and says the exhaust downpipe was cracked .. DUH .. and then $900 dollar to replace. She argued with them on the cost after I called another VW dealer and they said the part was $450 ... they said then that they would replace it for $650. Now, will I ever go back the that VW dealer ... Hell no ...

 

[-lecroix-]

The VW dealer in our area is infamous for it's price gouging as well.

 

[kartracer55]

There is a reason for this garage attitude, and there is a reason mechanic's charge for MORE hours than they actually worked.

If say, a job takes me an hour, but book time is 2, I will bill out for 2 hours, or if they are a long time customer 1.5 or so. Why?

Simple. Because For every, say, 10 cars you get and can beat the book time on, you will/may get one problem car that takes much longer than book time due to some unforseen problem, such as, broken fasteners, rusted components etc. Is it the customer's fualt that hardware on a car that hasnt been touched since the car was made rusted out? No. How would you like to hear... "I stripped a bolt trying to remove it, so Im billing you an hour of labor to fix it", or "since I had to heat up your tie rod lock nut to remove it, Im adding another half hour of labor and 5$ for oxygen and acetylene".. Actuall work time doesnt sound too good does it?

We had a car in, and We had to order rotors from thules, buywise and Worldpac... The 4th set delivered was the correct set. This car ******* a lift for an entire day. Are we supposed to charge the customer extra for thier car tieing up a bay because the parts places could not get the right rotors?

As a mechanic, you need to meet/beat book time, unless you agre or but charge more for ACTUAL time. IThis means you can turn a profit in the long run, but also keep that one customer with the problem car coming back, because you fell into the ballpark of your original estimate. Why should a mechanic bust his *** to finish a 2 hour job in an hour if he is only going to charge 1 hour of labor?

My mentality stems from me actually seeing how the buisness works and being on the recieving end of customer abuse. A good number of people out there have no problem trying to screw people out of a hard earned living. I have plenty of stories like the ones I posted, and I havent been here all too long.

Jim