fourbyford
Well-known member
Yep, a shop vac will certainly work. And, Fein makes a great product!
...D
...D
Improving basic dust collector
- Thread starter mc1984ss
- Start date
Don1357
Well-known member
The premise of your argument is flawed. Basicaly because we can't collect 100% of the dust at the source, it is ok to recirculate back into the air what we actually collect? That's what is called compounding the problem.
Each machine is unique and requires a lot of thought to get it right. My unisaw is getting a 5" pipe from under plus a 4" pipe on the blade guard. Everywhere there are unwanted leaks it is sealed and covered. The blade plate on top has a hole right behind the blade to crate a strong air current. This is just to slow down the dust being thrown by the blade enough for the 4" guard pipe from overhead to be able to pick it up. After going through the hassle of doing everything humanly possible to capture that dust, why on earth would i want it coming back into my place through the other end?
EPA air quality testing shows that small shop workers, including hobbyists, who vent their dust collection systems inside consistently get more fine dust exposure in a few hours of woodworking than workers in large facilities that vent outside get in months of full time work.
fourbyford
Well-known member
Wow! Your 5" dust port must work much better than mine! My Unisaw was built in 1998... maybe yours is newer (older?) and the dust port works better? Also, I'm curious how you seal up the area around the elevation hand wheel as the trunion tilts? And, do you use some sort of a seal around the shaft on the blade tilt hand wheel? I actually owned an overarm blade cover at one point and ended up selling it... dang near cut myself because of reduced visibility and it seemed to always be in the way.
Maybe I'm not very organized when using my tablesaw. Seems I'm constantly moving between crosscut and rips... installing the stack dado... using the tennoning jig... tapering jig... I realized the blade cover spent more time away from the blade than over it... so it found a new home.
And, I'm also curious how you handle dust collection from your chop saw. At one point, I was supposed to evaluate the latest/greatest invention to address that problem. We bought a sample... was it Rosseau?? that basically created an inverted "umbrella" with a dust hose connected to it? That dang thing would have taken up a huge space in my shop. And, it didn't really work. I have a Dewalt slider that moves every which direction. I tinkered with a few ideas to pick up the dust that thing creates. Not that I spent a ton of time on it but, I've only seen one solution to the mitersaw problem that actually worked. And, that guy had his saw covered to the point that the saw was marginally usable. I would be interested to hear of or see what youre using.
I have an SCMI bandsaw with a 4" dust port. Haven't had the best luck collecting from that either. When I have a 3 tooth blade installed and am resawing, sawdust just pours off the blade. I suppose I should have some sort of 4" port somewhere on the table but, haven't taken the time to figure that one out either. Seems like something that would collect dust would also be in the way.
Another issue I've wrestled with is my wood lathe. I ran a 4" DC line to it with a tapered flat dust hood. Seemed I was continually moving that around and it didn't work all that well anyway.
Sanders have been another issue. I have a long belt edge sander. The OEM supplied hood picks up some dust...
6 x 48 with 12" disc... same thing, OEM hoods pick up some dust. Oscillating drum sander with up to 4" diameter drum and tilting table... never did take the time to even mess with dust collection on that one. I'm open to any and all suggestions on any of these machines.
20" planer... the OEM hood takes a literal ton of chips away from this machine but, i can't think of a good way to seal it up and still be able to use it... ideas?
And, just as bad, if not worse, 3hp shaper. Again, the OEM hood collects tons of chips but, a lot still escapes. I have so many different cutters... to try to seal that machine, I'd need an insert for almost every set-up. Again, I'm open to suggestions!
At one point, I even set up a dust hood for my drill press. Guess it sort of worked for some of the bigger stuff. But, it was either in the way or need to be adjusted.
Dunno... its been quite a few years that I've been out of this arena. Maybe there are some newer products that actually work?? I know that dust can be a health issue and I do everything thing I can to mitigate that. But, in the end I still have to be able to use my machinery.
I did outside sales for a brief time. I did see that some of our customers vented their dust collectors outside. But, in most of those instances, I think they did it so they wouldn't have to deal with the mountains of chips and sawdust they created every day. A few of our customers had monstrous cyclone systems... most of those still had dust on the floor. I don't think I ever went into a commercial shop that didn't have some amount of sawdust. I did see a few that were "clean"... but even they had sawdust.
As I've mentioned, I'm trying to learn something here... I'm definitely open to your ideas!
...D
Maybe I'm not very organized when using my tablesaw. Seems I'm constantly moving between crosscut and rips... installing the stack dado... using the tennoning jig... tapering jig... I realized the blade cover spent more time away from the blade than over it... so it found a new home.
And, I'm also curious how you handle dust collection from your chop saw. At one point, I was supposed to evaluate the latest/greatest invention to address that problem. We bought a sample... was it Rosseau?? that basically created an inverted "umbrella" with a dust hose connected to it? That dang thing would have taken up a huge space in my shop. And, it didn't really work. I have a Dewalt slider that moves every which direction. I tinkered with a few ideas to pick up the dust that thing creates. Not that I spent a ton of time on it but, I've only seen one solution to the mitersaw problem that actually worked. And, that guy had his saw covered to the point that the saw was marginally usable. I would be interested to hear of or see what youre using.
I have an SCMI bandsaw with a 4" dust port. Haven't had the best luck collecting from that either. When I have a 3 tooth blade installed and am resawing, sawdust just pours off the blade. I suppose I should have some sort of 4" port somewhere on the table but, haven't taken the time to figure that one out either. Seems like something that would collect dust would also be in the way.
Another issue I've wrestled with is my wood lathe. I ran a 4" DC line to it with a tapered flat dust hood. Seemed I was continually moving that around and it didn't work all that well anyway.
Sanders have been another issue. I have a long belt edge sander. The OEM supplied hood picks up some dust...
6 x 48 with 12" disc... same thing, OEM hoods pick up some dust. Oscillating drum sander with up to 4" diameter drum and tilting table... never did take the time to even mess with dust collection on that one. I'm open to any and all suggestions on any of these machines.
20" planer... the OEM hood takes a literal ton of chips away from this machine but, i can't think of a good way to seal it up and still be able to use it... ideas?
And, just as bad, if not worse, 3hp shaper. Again, the OEM hood collects tons of chips but, a lot still escapes. I have so many different cutters... to try to seal that machine, I'd need an insert for almost every set-up. Again, I'm open to suggestions!
At one point, I even set up a dust hood for my drill press. Guess it sort of worked for some of the bigger stuff. But, it was either in the way or need to be adjusted.
Dunno... its been quite a few years that I've been out of this arena. Maybe there are some newer products that actually work?? I know that dust can be a health issue and I do everything thing I can to mitigate that. But, in the end I still have to be able to use my machinery.
I did outside sales for a brief time. I did see that some of our customers vented their dust collectors outside. But, in most of those instances, I think they did it so they wouldn't have to deal with the mountains of chips and sawdust they created every day. A few of our customers had monstrous cyclone systems... most of those still had dust on the floor. I don't think I ever went into a commercial shop that didn't have some amount of sawdust. I did see a few that were "clean"... but even they had sawdust.
As I've mentioned, I'm trying to learn something here... I'm definitely open to your ideas!
...D
bradpac
Well-known member
I appreciate all options that have been suggested and am researching them. I want this setup to be dedicated for dust collection and will keep a separate shop vac for those duties.
My tools consist of what I believe what is called a contractor style table saw (open frame under the saw), a compound miter saw, and a combination belt/oscillating spindle table top sander, all my other tools are hand held and I wasn't planning collection on those.
If I can buy a dust collector that is as good or better at collecting dust than a shop vac setup and is quieter for the same price or cheaper than that quiet shop vac I would rather go that route. On grizzly you can get a 1hp dual bag dust collector for $250.
Currently, I am a fan of the filter out the big stuff and exhaust outside method, in which a shop vac setup might work better with a cyclone or some other separation unit, but when you include that with the fein shop vac, that's double or triple the grizzly unit. So, I'm still doing research.
If there is a true dust collection setup that is designed for outside venting in addition to or instead of a filter bag that is what I am currently looking for to also put into consideration.
fourbyford
Well-known member
I'm not aware of anything on the market to exhaust directly outside. Pretty much, all you would do is eliminate the structure that supports the bags and duct the exhaust from the blower through a wall.
Be prepared to see a HUGE mess outside!
...D
Be prepared to see a HUGE mess outside!
...D
Don1357
Well-known member
fourbyford;
For collection at the tool level the aim is to apply as much of your CFM in as effective way as humanly possible. for the Unisaw:
I don't have a chop saw. For my radial arm saw I'll do something like this:
The 15" planner is getting its factory hood replaced so i can hook a 6" hose to it in order to maximize CFM.
The bandsaw is getting the lower plate tooled so instead of a 2" hole it has a 4" hole, and an additional dust collector on the front-underneath the blade.
Basically at dust collector pressures air behaves more like a liquid with fairly low compressibility; anything that chokes it reduces CFM significantly. Most machines can use ports significantly larger than the ones they ship with. Small ports are suitable for chip collection, not for fine dust collection.
But if you can't do any of these, don't compound the problem by venting inside, vent it all out. Doing both is even better.
For collection at the tool level the aim is to apply as much of your CFM in as effective way as humanly possible. for the Unisaw:
- Start by sealing all the low hanging fruit. That should take care of a good amount of your wasted CFM.
- Get magnetic sheets, for the moving parts they can be moved around to keep as much seal as possible. A few square inches are inevitable.
- The hole on the back of the blade is critical. The hardest dust to collect is the one traveling at the speed of the spinning blade. That hole creates a pretty strong down draft that slows down the fine dust. Slow enough that the overhead FCM stand the best chance possible to capture it.
I don't have a chop saw. For my radial arm saw I'll do something like this:
The 15" planner is getting its factory hood replaced so i can hook a 6" hose to it in order to maximize CFM.
The bandsaw is getting the lower plate tooled so instead of a 2" hole it has a 4" hole, and an additional dust collector on the front-underneath the blade.
Basically at dust collector pressures air behaves more like a liquid with fairly low compressibility; anything that chokes it reduces CFM significantly. Most machines can use ports significantly larger than the ones they ship with. Small ports are suitable for chip collection, not for fine dust collection.
But if you can't do any of these, don't compound the problem by venting inside, vent it all out. Doing both is even better.
Lynden
Well-known member
I have a 1.5 HP Delta 50-760 dust collector and I saved this information re: venting it outside. The 50-760 collector is similar in design to many of the lower-cost dust collectors which are available today. I'd recommend that you consider buying a 1.5 HP dust collector instead of the 1 HP Grizzly collector you mentioned.
http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=512.0 -- A Super Dust Deputy could be used instead of the Thein baffle separator shown.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=delta+50-760+venting+outside&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Last edited:
Don1357
Well-known member
The very minimum I would recommend is a 2hp capable of moving a 12"+ impeller. That should put you around 1500cfm at the mouth of the blower, no load. If you are lucky that will put around 800cfm on the machine end. Sub par for most machines but it is a start; most recommended values given are for chip collection, not dust collection.
The ideal one would be 5HP with a 14"+ impeller. Again, for a small shop, you would really need to screw up your setup in order to waste all that CFM capacity.
The ideal one would be 5HP with a 14"+ impeller. Again, for a small shop, you would really need to screw up your setup in order to waste all that CFM capacity.
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet but I have always been curious about the ceiling mounted dust collectors. These are designed to collect airborne dust, not at the point the dust is made. Anyone have experience? Good bad otherwise?
fourbyford
Well-known member
I have one of those as well. They're OK. 3 stage filter. Keep the outer 2 clean and the third stays very clean. When used with a DC, they really do help keep the fine dust at bay.
I'll have to admit... I don't use mine all of the time. When I'm working in my shop, I have a machine running (1st motor), a dust collector running (2nd motor) and the dust filter (3rd motor)... sometimes, the noise from all three can seem to be too much... although the filter itself isn't all that loud. Also, in summer, its just one more heat source in my shop. Having said that, in summer, I will run a machine, my dust collector, and a high velocity fan sitting in the open doorway blowing out. The fan actually helps with the dust and moves a bit of air to help with the heat situation.
Although my shop has 8' ceilings, I have to be careful... the dang thing can be a head banger.
...D
I'll have to admit... I don't use mine all of the time. When I'm working in my shop, I have a machine running (1st motor), a dust collector running (2nd motor) and the dust filter (3rd motor)... sometimes, the noise from all three can seem to be too much... although the filter itself isn't all that loud. Also, in summer, its just one more heat source in my shop. Having said that, in summer, I will run a machine, my dust collector, and a high velocity fan sitting in the open doorway blowing out. The fan actually helps with the dust and moves a bit of air to help with the heat situation.
Although my shop has 8' ceilings, I have to be careful... the dang thing can be a head banger.
...D
Don1357
Well-known member
They are not as efficient as vendors would like you to believe.
Wet one finger, put it in front of your face, blow on it, and move it away to see how far it can go and still feel the air. Then instead of blowing try sucking the same amount of air and see how close the finger needs to be before you feel air movement, which will be almost touching your face.
When you blow you are creating an air column that keeps a good amount of cohesiveness. That represents your machines flinging dust at speed be it from a blade, belt or sander. Sucking represents you trying to collect said dust; sucking doesn't **** up a column but instead draws air from all around, and you can see how inefficient it is for anything beyond a very short distance.
The most efficient thing you can do is handling the dust at the source where you can take into account which way your machine is flinging the dust and take into account which way is best to collect it there.
When you vent outside you just open all your ports on your dust collector and that will remove dusty stale air as efficiently if not better than any hanging air filter.
R6 Racer
Well-known member
I'll add my 2 cents (for whatever it's worth)
One big fact that stuck in my mind when I was researching dust collection, was the volume vs speed of the collecting air.
Shop vacs use a small hose ensuring a faster air speed. Speed picks up big chips & large dust particles. Using this method, the collection leaves a clean looking area.
BUT...
What causes the most dangerous damage to lungs are the fine dust particles (as others have said). Those "fines" fly far & most of them are out of the small area that quick air speed of a vac will pull from. A dust collector on the other hand uses air volume which collects dust from a much larger area. This volume method makes it harder to pick up those big pieces (chips) but grabs the fines that cause the big damage (with its lighter touch from a much greater distance).
Thereby grabbing a significantly larger volume of the deadly fines.
What I got from that was...
dust collector = less danger, more mess
vacuum = less mass, more danger
There is way more to dust collection but this fact is one that I believe should be kept at or near the top of your check list when making your decision.
From all I have been able to find on the topic, using a shop vac to try to contain find dust is about as good as using a garden hose to change the direction of the Mississippi.
That and venting outside is the best option for a clean inside.
Steve
One big fact that stuck in my mind when I was researching dust collection, was the volume vs speed of the collecting air.
Shop vacs use a small hose ensuring a faster air speed. Speed picks up big chips & large dust particles. Using this method, the collection leaves a clean looking area.
BUT...
What causes the most dangerous damage to lungs are the fine dust particles (as others have said). Those "fines" fly far & most of them are out of the small area that quick air speed of a vac will pull from. A dust collector on the other hand uses air volume which collects dust from a much larger area. This volume method makes it harder to pick up those big pieces (chips) but grabs the fines that cause the big damage (with its lighter touch from a much greater distance).
Thereby grabbing a significantly larger volume of the deadly fines.
What I got from that was...
dust collector = less danger, more mess
vacuum = less mass, more danger
There is way more to dust collection but this fact is one that I believe should be kept at or near the top of your check list when making your decision.
From all I have been able to find on the topic, using a shop vac to try to contain find dust is about as good as using a garden hose to change the direction of the Mississippi.
That and venting outside is the best option for a clean inside.
Steve
R6 Racer
Well-known member
On venting outside...
Be careful if its winter & you heat with a big max style propane or N.G. heater. Venting outside can produce negative air pressure in your shop. This neg. pres. can cause the heater to not burn properly or/& not vent completely. Leaving your shop to fill up with gasses way more deadly than fine dust.
I needed a co2 monitor & a small vent system to allow fresh outside air in to avoid the negative air pressure. (the monitor tells me when to open the vent)
This did make heating during -30 to -40 way more expensive, but it keeps the fines out of the lungs.
Steve
Be careful if its winter & you heat with a big max style propane or N.G. heater. Venting outside can produce negative air pressure in your shop. This neg. pres. can cause the heater to not burn properly or/& not vent completely. Leaving your shop to fill up with gasses way more deadly than fine dust.
I needed a co2 monitor & a small vent system to allow fresh outside air in to avoid the negative air pressure. (the monitor tells me when to open the vent)
This did make heating during -30 to -40 way more expensive, but it keeps the fines out of the lungs.
Steve
Last edited:
Voi
Well-known member
I hooked up a small Dust Deputy to my shop vac, and it works amazingly well. Very little gets to the vac or the filter, meaning my filter doesn’t clog as much.
LX-Markham can you measure from the top of your Dust Deputy lid to your soffit? I don't need the height of the bucket. I'm going to have to have a custom catch box underneath mine.
I know the measurements are online but it only says to the center of the inlet or something like that. Unfortunately I need better measurements than that. I really only need the height of the cyclone itself plus whatever space is needed for the hose to bend like that.
Mine is ordered but I'd like to get as much stuff laid out before all of my parts get here.
bugzilla46310
Well-known member
Thought I would post here instead of starting a new thread. Got a Delta Unisaw at an auction a few years ago for $60! It did not have a motor cover. I added a dust collector to it but have always been disappointed as without a motor cover, it still blew dust all over. I’ve toyed with motor cover designs, wanting more of a flush panel with a cut out for the motor. My theory was the motor fan would assist in blowing dust into the vac. Made one out of cardboard as a trial and it did work pretty good. But the design of the Unisaw, adjusting the motor renders this type of cover useless. Got around to making a box type cover that attaches with a French cleat. Literally takes seconds to put it on and off. But with the cover on, it highlights another design flaw of the Unisaw when it comes to dust collection. The motor fan blows right at the blade and blows excessive dust out along the blade. Looked at putting a duct around the motor and direct the air flow to the collector PU, but with 2 capacitors etc, this was a no go. So I fabricated a plate, about 12”x 16” inches blocking the motor fan air from the blade. I curved the bottom to direct some of the air flow to the collector (at least in my mind it will!) and also allows 45 degree tilt. When I cut some wood without the collector you could see dust coming out of the collector connection. When hooked up, virtually 95% of the dust coming out around the blade is eliminated. I do not have a blade guard on my saw. I also thought about removing the fan altogether as I do not think that would negatively affect the motor. Some pictures are attached.
Last edited:
tulowd
Well-known member
I finally added dust collection to my Unisaw last winter. Did a pretty decent thread on one of the woodworking forums, Lumberjocks or Router Forum IIRC. I had been struggling with the idea of spending dumb $$ on the fugly ABS egg or rectangular covers, so instead I kept a lookout for an outdoor rated electrical box large enough to cover the motor and chassis opening. Brand new, nice shape for $60, IIRC. Same box was $120 on Amazon at the time. Cardboard template, some internal tracing and a little bit of metal cutting/drilling. Add some weather stripping and Bob's your uncle. Added a 4" dust outlet at the back of the saw, along with a base inside. Works great with mdf, noticeably less dust blowing while cutting and very little remaining inside the machine.; or at least that falls out when moving it.
Motor can still move throughout it's entire depth and angle ranges.....although not after the first effort, DUH!! lol
Added a 4" dust outlet at the back of the saw, along with a base inside. Works great with mdf, noticeably less dust blowing while cutting and very little remaining inside the machine.; or at least that falls out when moving it.
Outdoor rated electrical enclosures come with a pliable waterproof gasket on the door and the access panel, so it's perfect for this repurposing.
Motor can still move throughout it's entire depth and angle ranges.....although not after the first effort, DUH!! lol
Added a 4" dust outlet at the back of the saw, along with a base inside. Works great with mdf, noticeably less dust blowing while cutting and very little remaining inside the machine.; or at least that falls out when moving it.
Outdoor rated electrical enclosures come with a pliable waterproof gasket on the door and the access panel, so it's perfect for this repurposing.
