Improving Floor Heat System

[Gentle_Ben]

To the OP. I agree with the others that changing to a different resistance heating method is futile, if the goal is cost savings. It would work better...but it would (in theory) use more electricity to do so.

If you're stuck with what you have, I'd say "insulate, insulate, insulate".

Phil

Thanks for your comments. Yeah from the feedback here it sounds like going to a boiler wouldn't gain me all that much. I might do a few things to improve the efficiency of my hot water tank like adding a tank wrap and adding foam to the copper tubing that comes out of it. As previously mentioned I might move the thermostat to an area that doesn't have the potential to be hit with a draft.

I basically have the maximum amount of insulation that makes sense already. In theory I could add 2 inches of closed cell foam to the outside walls, but I don't know how much that would gain me since I have 2x6 walls with rockwool insulation already and R75 in the ceiling.

I will also shop around for some sort of auxiliary heat I can add to take some load off of the floor heat in extreme situations.

 

[Radix2]

Thanks for your comments. Yeah from the feedback here it sounds like going to a boiler wouldn't gain me all that much. I might do a few things to improve the efficiency of my hot water tank like adding a tank wrap and adding foam to the copper tubing that comes out of it. As previously mentioned I might move the thermostat to an area that doesn't have the potential to be hit with a draft.

I basically have the maximum amount of insulation that makes sense already. In theory I could add 2 inches of closed cell foam to the outside walls, but I don't know how much that would gain me since I have 2x6 walls with rockwool insulation already and R75 in the ceiling.

I will also shop around for some sort of auxiliary heat I can add to take some load off of the floor heat in extreme situations.

Ben, I think you still do not really understand the physics of heating your building.

First, electric resistance heating is 100% efficient. Unless you go to some type of heat pump, there is nothing to gain by using different heaters or auxiliary heaters.

There is nothing to be saved by trying to run your floor less and another electric heater instead. Equiptment cost efficiency wise, the ideal is to have your equipment running full on all the time on the coldest day, and cycling as it gets warmer. Cycling vs running is not a savings per se.

It makes no sense to me to insulate you pipes or tank. There is no efficiency advantage in radiating heat from the floor vs the tank and pipe unless you are trying to avoid overheating a closet or room where your equiptment is mounted. The heat is going into your building, it is not wasted.

Heat pump water heaters make no sense in room heating applications if they are mounted in the heated space....in fact it reduces their efficiency to no better than a std heater.

Your only viable options are to reduce the energy required by more insulation (sounds like you are already maxed out), or lowering the temperature, or stopping any air leaks.

 

[Gentle_Ben]

Ben, I think you still do not really understand the physics of heating your building.

There is nothing to be saved by trying to run your floor less and another electric heater instead. Equiptment cost efficiency wise, the ideal is to have your equipment running full on all the time on the coldest day, and cycling as it gets warmer. Cycling vs running is not a savings per se.

Maybe not, but the problem is that the air that leaks around the door in high winds is hitting the thermostat directly so its causing the system to run when its not actually necessary. When the wind is blowing hard the air temperature in the garage actually exceeds what I want b/c the thermostat is being tripped by a draft. During an extreme temperature change (but no wind) the system works as intended and stays at the target temperature, but if you add wind into the equation then the system runs constantly and an actual temperature reading shows several degrees above the target temperature of the thermostat. Since I can't seal the doors up anymore than they already are without liming their functionality, then my only recourse is to move the thermostat where a draft will no longer hit it.

It makes no sense to me to insulate you pipes or tank. There is no efficiency advantage in radiating heat from the floor vs the tank and pipe unless you are trying to avoid overheating a closet or room where your equiptment is mounted. The heat is going into your building, it is not wasted.

Our local utility company gives out the materials to insulate hot water tanks for free. The idea is that it costs you less to keep the water in the tank by reducing the amount of heat loss from it. I realize this would not assist in situations where the tank would be running for long periods of time, but would help when the tank has hot water on standby. Since the tank is hidden inside cabinetry the tank does not really assist in warming the air through parasitic heat loss to the air.

Your only viable options are to reduce the energy required by more insulation (sounds like you are already maxed out), or lowering the temperature, or stopping any air leaks.

Temperature is already set at the lowest setting available on the thermostat I have. I have been trying to find a digital line voltage thermostat but haven't had any luck so far.

I can't do much about the air leaks, I already have heavy duty door seals on the sides and top of the door as well as triple bottom seal. We tried adjusting the door so it sits super tight against the seals but this would cause too much resistance and the door actuators would reverse thinking there was a blockage.

 

[Blk88GT]

I think the bubble foam under the slab is hurting you.

The thermostat can be easily relocated, even temporarily to test your theory. I have my thermostat mounted on the wall facing my doors.

I'm also using a low voltage relay/timer to allow a 10 minute delay between the thermostat calling for heat and the boiler firing up. It helped when opening doors and a cold rush of air comes in, causing the thermostat to call for heat. I got the relay from Acklands-Grainger on the advice of a member here.

https://www.grainger.com/product/IC...cm_sp=IO-_-IDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ1

Ian

 

[Retlaw 66]

An enclosure around the thermostat will make it less susceptible to changes from drafts.

Modifying the water heater to run both elements will double it's current draw.... be sure the breakers and wiring are up to it.

Have you considered solar panels to offset your electrical costs?

 

[theoldwizard1]

maybe not, but the problem is that the air that leaks around the door in high winds is hitting the thermostat directly so its causing the system to run when its not actually necessary.

fix the air leak !

 

[Dragster Racer]

Not much that can be done with the bubble foam at this point. What about insulating down the walls of the edges of the slab? I don't know how much heat loss that would prevent. Just an idea.
So there would be digging, insulating and backfilling.

 

[Gentle_Ben]

fix the air leak !

As previously stated I have brand new heavy duty door seals on the top and sides and also a triple seal on the bottom of the door. If you have a way of stopping 100% of the air from leaking around a 10x10 overhead door that faces strong winds, I'm all ears.

 

[Gentle_Ben]

Not much that can be done with the bubble foam at this point. What about insulating down the walls of the edges of the slab? I don't know how much heat loss that would prevent. Just an idea.
So there would be digging, insulating and backfilling.

Edges of the slab are insulated with closed cell foam on all four sides. According to my contractor this is where the majority of heat loss occurs with a heated slab.

 

[Gentle_Ben]

I think the bubble foam under the slab is hurting you.

The thermostat can be easily relocated, even temporarily to test your theory. I have my thermostat mounted on the wall facing my doors.

I'm also using a low voltage relay/timer to allow a 10 minute delay between the thermostat calling for heat and the boiler firing up. It helped when opening doors and a cold rush of air comes in, causing the thermostat to call for heat. I got the relay from Acklands-Grainger on the advice of a member here.

https://www.grainger.com/product/IC...cm_sp=IO-_-IDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ1

Ian

Thanks for the tips. I will definitely look into the timer option. Nothing can be done about the foil and bubble wrap thermal break, however I will say that this is the only way my contractor does heated slabs, so there must be some merit to it.

An enclosure around the thermostat will make it less susceptible to changes from drafts.

Modifying the water heater to run both elements will double it's current draw.... be sure the breakers and wiring are up to it.

Have you considered solar panels to offset your electrical costs?

I am definitely going to relocate the thermostat this summer. This water heater is small and uses only one element. I upgraded it to a 6000w element and that's really all that can be done with the water heater unfortunately.

I am definitely interested in adding solar panels at some point.

 

[pstnbly]

Edges of the slab are insulated with closed cell foam on all four sides. According to my contractor this is where the majority of heat loss occurs with a heated slab.

Your contractor is wrong.

 

[Pythong]

I basically have the maximum amount of insulation that makes sense already. In theory I could add 2 inches of closed cell foam to the outside walls, but I don't know how much that would gain me since I have 2x6 walls with rockwool insulation already and R75 in the ceiling.

I'm quite away from getting heat in my garage, mostly due to taking the time and adding as much insulation as possible. In East of you (Thunder Bay) and have very similar temperature conditions so taking my time (due to finanical costs lol) and adding the max R value possible. I'm over 2x the size of you (1688sqft) w/12' walls and put 2" RIGID foam on my exterior. I'm hoping this will help add two things, thermal break from the cold transferring though the 2x6 studs as well as adding extra barrier to prevent wind/breeze from penetrating though. Overall when i'm done i'll be at R34 on my walls.
The way i see it, heating costs never go down, always up up up. So what i do now will save over 20+years of heating for the rest of my life.

If you do plan on going with RIGID on the outside head to the states as their Rigid foam is 1/2 price compaired to in Canada even with the exchange rate. Menards is where i've gotten all mine for under the slab and walls.

I'll continue to follow this thread as it has a huge interest to me for similar heating/climate conditions.

Hope you get your problems resolve! And i love your garage

 

[kj_mustang]

Your contractor is wrong.

The contractor is partially wrong. For a slab on grade, the perimeter of the slab will be exposed to ambient air temperatures. The bottom of the slab is exposed to ground temperatures that would be higher than ambient in most winter climates. But the underside of the first four feet of the slab around the perimeter is a major factor in heat loss.
http://www.uponorpro.com/~/media/extranet/files/cdam/cdam_manual_7thed_0711_ch7.ashx?version=072920111126

 

[theoldwizard1]

As previously stated I have brand new heavy duty door seals on the top and sides and also a triple seal on the bottom of the door. If you have a way of stopping 100% of the air from leaking around a 10x10 overhead door that faces strong winds, I'm all ears.

This is going to sound crazy, but what you want is a heavy, insulated drapery ! Slide it out of the way when you want to open the door or you do not need it.

Hanging it is not going to be easy, but this does work, at least on a smaller scale.

 

[Voi]

I basically have the maximum amount of insulation that makes sense already. In theory I could add 2 inches of closed cell foam to the outside walls, but I don't know how much that would gain me since I have 2x6 walls with rockwool insulation already and R75 in the ceiling.

2" of foam on the exterior wouldn't be enough for your climate to keep the sheathing temperatures above the dew point. If you were willing to add enough foam to keep the sheathing warm enough it would do wonders for thermal bridging but I suspect your money is better spent elsewhere.

If you have a way of stopping 100% of the air from leaking around a 10x10 overhead door that faces strong winds, I'm all ears.

Green Hinges have received positive reviews here. I'd check with them to see if they have a product available for your door and if they ship to Canada.

 

[gnpenning]

The pictures from your pour show no insulation where the door openings go to the apron in front of the garage. If there is no thermo break from the heated slab to the outside you are pulling heat outside and heating the great outdoors. You show insulation on the foundation just not out front. Maybe it was added during the pour????

Your garage door tracks should have adjustable stand off brackets. If so loosen them up and move the door to the jamb. Green hinges have made a good business off of poor installs and door companies the have rived or non adjustable stand off brackets. Rived ones you can drill out the rivets and add carriage bolts and adjust them. Non adjustable can be replaced with ones that are for far less than the hinges. I have radiant heat in my place and snow can build up against the door with out melting. I have one bay I don't use all winter.

 

[klrdiant]

i haven't read much of this thread so please forgive any repetition from other responses

- the problem with using a tank system to provide the heat input is that tanks have very poor recovery .. that means they struggle to maintain design water temperature during periods when they are operating at the upper end of the curve .. if it was me i would ditch it, and if you are stuck with electricity use an electric wall hung boiler (not an electric on demand water heater) .. get a local HVAC guy to properly calculate your btu requirements and size the boiler accordingly

- i am assuming that the black pvc contraption is some kind of expansion chamber ?? ditch it, you need an expansion tank with a bladder to separate the system from the atmosphere .. here's a picture of a pump i removed from an open system that had been running for less than a month

https://scontent-lga3-1.**.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/q82/s480x480/18157402_10155082377360792_5705147720124729938_n.jpg?oh=c34dbd3f353b1b0318b9a2a3debfa7e4&oe=597A6648

see all that rust ?? it sinks .. imagine trying to remove that from the pex in your floor

- i see no t&p valve or any other kind of safety device .. is there any system venting in case things go south ?? it's not blow up and throw shrapnel, but how did it pass code ??

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You have insufficient energy input and either insufficient insulation or poorly "sealed" building or both.

A "real" boiler will get you up to temp quicker and likely will require less energy.


Those small water heaters usually have only one heating element. Larger water heaters have 2 elements and require 240V. What is the model # on your water heater.

X2. You gotta make the envelope tight, too. Garages leak air like crazy.

Tommy

 

[theoldwizard1]

i haven't read much of this thread so please forgive any repetition from other responses

- the problem with using a tank system to provide the heat input is that tanks have very poor recovery ..

Actually the REAL problem is super cold air leaking around the garage door seals. The only real way to solve the problem is and "air lock" type system. Either heavy padded draperies covering that entire wall and doors or something else to prevent the air leaks.

 

[House]

So I have been running a in floor heat set up in my garage for about 15 yrs now in Southern Saskatchewan. Garage is 22x36 x10' walls.Mine runs off of a gas NG water heater. I used the cut out scraps from exterior doors to insulate my slab edges and under the slad as well. A local door manufacture was giving them away at the time and others in the area had done used them as well. I'm sure its not as good as 2" rigid but the price was right. My theory is unless you were to use maybe 6" of foam you will have some heat loss anyways . Once that ground is heated the main area under the centre of the garage is likely acting like a heat sink anyways? I for sure see loss at the perimeter because the snow never stays against it, always a 1-2" space .
I don't mind the system but I find to keep my air temp decent to work at (15C) I have to keep the water temp up to a point where the floor is near 20C. This can get pretty warm to stand on all day. I can not say really what my system costs to run because it is on the same meter as my home but I know the first couple years my gas bills went up about 600-700 per year so figuring that the system basically runs 7-8 months out of the year so maybe 100$ increase those months? Pretty good I figure. The only real change I would like to try is I have though about adding a loop connected to a small coil with a fan to try and heat the air quicker when the door opens because recovery time is pretty slow to heat the air but have not done it yet.
I think your main issue with your set up is the draft at the door and maybe under your walls? I would for sure try moving your thermo to a better spot before anything else, if you temp is actually climbing when the system is running more then the system should really not be calling for heat, its just the draft causing it to think it needs heat. Also mount the thermo with a piece of at least 1" foam between it and the wall surface. If your thermo right now is mounted on a stud you are getting some conduction of cold right through the wall likely as well.
Good luck.
Here is a shop tour of my garage if anyone is interested?

 

[klrdiant]

Actually the REAL problem is super cold air leaking around the garage door seals. The only real way to solve the problem is and "air lock" type system. Either heavy padded draperies covering that entire wall and doors or something else to prevent the air leaks.

sorry wiz, i didn't mean to piss you off .. i read this, "The doors do leak a bit of air if there is enough wind load on them, but that's only in extreme situations" and thought it meant that doors do leak a bit of air if there is enough wind load on them, but that's only in extreme situations

 

[stokefire7]

Wood boiler for supplemental heat ?

 

[Rusty Bumper]

Your high ceilings could use a fan to move the heat down from the ceiling. I read it but forget the height.
You never did give a reason on why you heat your garage and at what temp you need to keep it at. Do you grow exotic plants or need it for a paint booth. Your pic just look like it is just a fancy awesome man cave. Love the lighting and floors btw.
Does the draft affect the use, well I guess you are actually going after the efficiency. So whether you need to put on a warm hat is mute if your money is just blowing with the wind.

My thermostat is in the slab itself, I understand that is an ideal place for them. I ran one extra blank tube 8' to the center of the slab and slid the thermostat bulb into it. You could still do this by making a say cut into your floor about 1/2" deep, lay the bulb and wire, back fill with epoxy.
When I need to work ing my garage in the winter, I turn the heat up to 50*F the day before I plan to work. Otherwise it sits at about 40*F to keep the waterpipes from freezing.

BTW, do you know the R value of the bubble barrier under your floor.
Also, the electric boiler Radientec Guy linked in post #17 is one of the best in the business. Made in Minnesota. Often sold through your electric company or Coop. "Virtually never a callback after install" is the way my HVAC guy put it to me. http://www.electromn.com/gen/boilers.htm

 

[lieutenant]

Wow, this thread led me to your garage build. Everything is so well done! I see in your build thread you had a problem with wind blowing through your drain back into the garage. Could this still be causing an issue? I have zero expertise on any of this so just really want to say what a great job on everything.

 

[UpstateNY]

The issue with GFWH in radiant systems is the extended and more frequent run times and the added condensation rotting the flue out

The flue on new gas-fired WH's are PVC due to low exhaust temps, PVC doesn't rust. I guess time will tell about extended run times affecting its longevity. I do think me running mineral-free water will prevent the erosion issue in WH's and thus garner a long life.

 

[theoldwizard1]

i read this, "The doors do leak a bit of air if there is enough wind load on them, but that's only in extreme situations" and thought it meant that doors do leak a bit of air if there is enough wind load on them, but that's only in extreme situations

"extreme conditions", like -20F and wind blowing 20-30 MPH.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The flue on new gas-fired WH's are PVC due to low exhaust temps, PVC doesn't rust. I guess time will tell about extended run times affecting its longevity. I do think me running mineral-free water will prevent the erosion issue in WH's and thus garner a long life.

The good news is that WH is cheap compared to a real boiler so if it burns out in 5 years or so, it is not a big loss.

You probably missed the fact that the OP is using a "custom" heating element that is double the power of a standard element.

The OP posted so many "restrictions", that he is stuck with the heat source he has except for adding a portable heater. Those burn a lot of fuel and will have to be refueled often.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Re-reading the original post

I want to have a more efficient system that can lower my monthly utility costs for heating my garage.

The only way he is going to reduce his monthly cost of operation is a geothermal (ground source) heat pump. It will take multiple wells, insulated piping, likely will NOT fit in the space allocated for the current system and will cost $$,$$$ !

Even if the OP reduce his monthly cost by 50% (a savings of $100) for 9 month heating season, if would probably take >10-15 years to pay back !

 

[klrdiant]

Re-reading the original post



The only way he is going to reduce his monthly cost of operation is a geothermal (ground source) heat pump. It will take multiple wells, insulated piping, likely will NOT fit in the space allocated for the current system and will cost $$,$$$ !

Even if the OP reduce his monthly cost by 50% (a savings of $100) for 9 month heating season, if would probably take >10-15 years to pay back !

i dunno where you're getting your info wiz .. it's a bit out dated to be diplomatic

nowadays we have cheaper smaller heat pumps, and shallow trench slinky systems .. there are both open and closed systems that can use ponds, lakes or springs for heat source

we have hybrid heat pump/element tanked systems that squeeze the heat out of the ambient air during the shoulder months and use an element when it's colder

there are modulating electric boilers with out door reset function

there's a whole host of options that are many times more efficient than a 30 gallon water heater tank and a with an on/off t-stat

but why are we even discussing that when ACTUALLY the problem is leaky door seals ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

nowadays we have cheaper smaller heat pumps, and shallow trench slinky systems .. there are both open and closed systems that can use ponds, lakes or springs for heat source ...

Obviously you did not read the original post ! OP Lives in MANITOBA, CANADA ! -20F is NOT unusual. No trench slinky system is going to work, unless you bury it 15' down ! 2-3' of ice on a lake up there is not unheard of !!

The big advantage of wells is that you can always add another well if you find that the return water (i.e. what is going INTO the heat pump) is too cold (<40F). Adding trenching or replacing what was buried too high, is a lot more difficult/expensive.

Do your research ! There are folks out there who had the space to install trench systems, but the winter temps were low enough that the ground froze all the way down to the pipe. These folks are relying on resistance heating $$$ !!

 

[yeldogt]

The OP has a couple things going.

If the system is keeping up -- he says it is and he thinks the thermostat is turning on the pump when it should not because of a door draft. He needs to move the thermostat.

If the doors are leaking -- and they are good doors with good insulation and good weatherstrip. I would get a set of spring hinges from Green Hinge .. they worked very well on my extra wide double door.

The OP should have installed more insulation under the slab .. most people don't notice the lack of insulation because the heating source can often overcome the loss of heat .. it's only noticeable when the output of the heating system closely matches the input needed for the building .... as the temp drops you see the inflection point. It's impossible to tell how much the difference would have made .. lots of factors .. especially any moisture under he slab. I live in an area with wet clay -- it's always wet .. and we need to insulate.

Installing an electric boiler with the same output or insulating the current tank will gain no increase in the system -- if he needs more BTU's he needs more BTU's. I guess gas is not available or he would have done it. If electric is more expensive vs propane .. and propane is available you can always add a vented through the wall unit. I do this in one of my studio buildings ... the radiant maintains a minimum floor temp and I use the propane heater to up the room temp when needed.

 

[klrdiant]

wizzy .. i'm in canada too, doing radiant for a living .. hence the name; kl radiant.. keeping people warm with trench slinkys and ice fishing those same lakes .. factory trained, research done bud .. thanks though

Obviously you did not read the original post ! OP Lives in MANITOBA, CANADA ! -20F is NOT unusual. No trench slinky system is going to work, unless you bury it 15' down ! 2-3' of ice on a lake up there is not unheard of !!

The big advantage of wells is that you can always add another well if you find that the return water (i.e. what is going INTO the heat pump) is too cold (<40F). Adding trenching or replacing what was buried too high, is a lot more difficult/expensive.

Do your research ! There are folks out there who had the space to install trench systems, but the winter temps were low enough that the ground froze all the way down to the pipe. These folks are relying on resistance heating $$$ !!

 

[Oldbear]

Your contractor is wrong.

I completely agree.

We're putting minimum 2" foam under the slab with ICF from the footings to the rafters. Bubble wrap is for shipping - not for insulation. Heat is lost in every direction. We have contractors in our area that have +40 years experience too. Some of them are wrong - One of them still believes that heat is only lost through windows, doors and your roof - NOT the walls or foundation... the years of experience just makes him stubborn.

My contractor is my father, he sells and installs ICF block. I might be biased, but I've been in some of the homes he has built - night and day difference with the extra R value. But even he is wrong sometimes, and I will call him on it in regards to a construction job. It's hard when there is the personal connection - but you are paying for a "product or service" so it is buyer beware.

 

[Oldbear]

Re-reading the original post



The only way he is going to reduce his monthly cost of operation is a geothermal (ground source) heat pump. It will take multiple wells, insulated piping, likely will NOT fit in the space allocated for the current system and will cost $$,$$$ !

Even if the OP reduce his monthly cost by 50% (a savings of $100) for 9 month heating season, if would probably take >10-15 years to pay back !

Solar water heat system on the roof and then tied into the system with a heat exchanger = "free" heat (if you ignore the original costs).

 

[theoldwizard1]

wizzy .. i'm in canada too, doing radiant for a living .. hence the name; kl radiant.. keeping people warm with trench slinkys and ice fishing those same lakes .. factory trained, research done bud .. thanks though

Glad you shared your credentials !

I have read too many horror stories about people who installed "slinky" system (typically in the US midwest) only to have to resort to their resistance heating to get the temp up to a comfortable level. They all just condemn the heat pump.

A heat pump (as you know) move "heat" from point A to point B. It is designed to work in a certain range of temps. It the input water temp is too low, you screwed. I am certain you will agree with that statement.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Solar water heat system on the roof and then tied into the system with a heat exchanger = "free" heat (if you ignore the original costs).

I would like some real world feedback from someone using solar water heat when the ambient temp is <0F !

IMHO, the OP would better off with photovoltaic panels and a grid tie arrangement to offset his electric cost on his existing system. I have never heard of photovoltaic panels NOT working on a good sunny day in winter (assuming they are not covered by ice and/or snow).

 

[yeldogt]

Glad you shared your credentials !

I have read too many horror stories about people who installed "slinky" system (typically in the US midwest) only to have to resort to their resistance heating to get the temp up to a comfortable level. They all just condemn the heat pump.

A heat pump (as you know) move "heat" from point A to point B. It is designed to work in a certain range of temps. It the input water temp is too low, you screwed. I am certain you will agree with that statement.

This is why the new air to air HP's are changing the game -- with higher pressures and the ability of equipment to work and survive at lower temps the gap is narrowing. There is still a lot of usable heat available at 0% -- it's a difficult concept to get your head around -- but it's there.

At one time people installed GEO over NG -- no way is this the case today with lower costs. Even electric has come down in costs .. GEO has a hard time competing with air to air.

IMO the rebates/ tax incentives should have gone away for all GEO a long time ago. Better buildings w/ better air barriers is the place for rebates and tax incentives.

 

[Oldbear]

I would like some real world feedback from someone using solar water heat when the ambient temp is <0F !

IMHO, the OP would better off with photovoltaic panels and a grid tie arrangement to offset his electric cost on his existing system. I have never heard of photovoltaic panels NOT working on a good sunny day in winter (assuming they are not covered by ice and/or snow).

I'm interested in both options. Maybe someone reading this thread can chime in. I'd like to use it to supplement my current in floor heating for the house and maybe add a panel or two to the shop, again as a supplement rather than the only system.

We are starting to get some nice rebates toward "green" energy for the common home owner from our provincial and federal governments. Our RV solar panels still produce a noticeable amount with a few inches of snow, our County admin building has solar panels installed to offset the power consumption during business hours - This is the direction things are going. We have (in Alberta) some of the best sunshine for solar and I'd like to take advantage of the "free" energy - but I don't like being the guinea pig or the guy that bought the "snake-oil" heating system. Buyer beware.

 

[yeldogt]

I'm interested in both options. Maybe someone reading this thread can chime in. I'd like to use it to supplement my current in floor heating for the house and maybe add a panel or two to the shop, again as a supplement rather than the only system.

We are starting to get some nice rebates toward "green" energy for the common home owner from our provincial and federal governments. Our RV solar panels still produce a noticeable amount with a few inches of snow, our County admin building has solar panels installed to offset the power consumption during business hours - This is the direction things are going. We have (in Alberta) some of the best sunshine for solar and I'd like to take advantage of the "free" energy - but I don't like being the guinea pig or the guy that bought the "snake-oil" heating system. Buyer beware.

We have many in PA (electric) -- and solar hot water can work in a cold climate. It's a question of payback -- and you must have a conventional system for backup.

the problem I see is the systems are "all or nothing" .. they end up being too big and expensive. Once you have them back feeding the grid in any numbers the cost to the utility get too high and it stopes others from being able to build.

The systems that supplement -- especially those that can take care of the AC load in the summer ... should be promoted. The problem in my area is the solar produced does not match the need -- and no way to store it. Better to have a system designed to eliminate the high loads at the time of year they occur.