In floor radiant advice

[hockey88fan]

Looking to get my in floor radiant up and running. 1000 sq foot garage built into a hill/bank, insulated r38 in ceiling r19 walls. I was told I need a heat source that produces 25,000 btu's, so I was considering a 7kw electric boiler. Was wondering what the best and most cost effective one would be, I see there is a wide price range in these units.

Also, I notice various websites sell radiant ready packages that have all the components needed (circulator pump, expansion tank, etc) preassembled and mounted to a plywood board, comes with everything but the heat source. For my application they run about $850. I was wondering if this is a good price or could I buy the components separately and do better? Keep in mind I'd have my plumber assemble it all. And for anyone who has purchased one of these, are you pleased with what you got and what company/website you went through.

Thanks

 

[James-W]

Instead of an electric boiler, do you have any other options available? Electric works great, but the cost of operation may be a little on the expensive side if you decide to heat the garage full time.

 

[hockey88fan]

Probably could get LP set up, our KWH cost in This area is under 7, and drops lower from 8pm to 8am. My garage is built into a hill/bank as well, half of it is under earth, only the front and some of the sides is framed. All that being the case I thought electric might not be that expensive, but I could be wrong.

 

[Bondo]

Looking to get my in floor radiant up and running. 1000 sq foot garage built into a hill/bank, insulated r38 in ceiling r19 walls. I was told I need a heat source that produces 25,000 btu's, so I was considering a 7kw electric boiler. Was wondering what the best and most cost effective one would be, I see there is a wide price range in these units.

Also, I notice various websites sell radiant ready packages that have all the components needed (circulator pump, expansion tank, etc) preassembled and mounted to a plywood board, comes with everything but the heat source. For my application they run about $850. I was wondering if this is a good price or could I buy the components separately and do better? Keep in mind I'd have my plumber assemble it all. And for anyone who has purchased one of these, are you pleased with what you got and what company/website you went through.

Thanks

Ayuh,.... Then you should talk to yer Plumber, 'n if he cares to, ya oughta give 'im 1st dibs on tellin' ya how much it'll cost for 'im to buy, 'n install Everything,....

I'm a Diy'er, 'n buy at or below wholesale, so I really can't help ya,...
Other than remindin' ya,... ya don't bring yer own raw hamburger to McD's, 'n ask them to cook it for ya,....
If there's any "Profit" to be made, keep it local, yer Plumber'll appreciate it,...

 

[hockey88fan]

Ayuh,.... Then you should talk to yer Plumber, 'n if he cares to, ya oughta give 'im 1st dibs on tellin' ya how much it'll cost for 'im to buy, 'n install Everything,....

I'm a Diy'er, 'n buy at or below wholesale, so I really can't help ya,...
Other than remindin' ya,... ya don't bring yer own raw hamburger to McD's, 'n ask them to cook it for ya,....
If there's any "Profit" to be made, keep it local, yer Plumber'll appreciate it,...

Haha true, should've added my plumber is my friend....

 

[mustangfan]

A propane water heater is rated at 35,000btu max output, and you can regulate the temperature of it up to 140' so it might be good option. It does take up a little space, but they are very economical and not to hard to find good used ones on Clist. They have very little maintenance to go wrong with them.

 

[Randy in Maine]

I just ran a 3/4" pex "feed" off my home boiler to the shop about 50' feet away and back. It was cheap and keeps any flame out of the shop. It is its own zone.

 

[twinpack]

I just finished piping mine last weekend. I used a Bosch Greenstar 96% LP boiler. Talking about using a water heater, Bradford White has a GS unit either 30 or 50 gallon storage, each uses a 75, 000 burner and has the ability to store that water at 160*f. This might be a option for you. I can tell you that there is no substitute for using a real boiler as I mentioned above. It has a real heat xchanger, will last many years, uses condensing technology, comes with controls designed to perform in this type of enviroment and is very efficient to operate. The water heater approach is definitely less expensive upfront but you will be replacing it more often, it also is less efficient, they run in the very low 70% range. Hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[anthony666]

^ a breath of fresh air .. great first post twinpack

 

[mustangfan]

Some of the reason a H20 heater efficiancy rating is low is due to the stored water loosing its heat. BUT if that water heater is in the building all of the LOST heat is actually going into the building anyway, so it is not LOST. You also do not NEED to vent the water heater to the outside, unless your garage is airtight and you do not open and close the door very often. Their are MANY propane GARAGE heaters that do not have a vent. SO in essence the H2O heater is actually 100% efficient when you do not vent it to the outside. All of the heat generated is used to HEAT the building. I have a 10 year old water heater, and it hasn't cost $1 in repairs or electricity to run!! It cost $250 new, and it still works great. I don't believe a new high efficient boiler will last that long without any repairs. Their are 3-4 components to a water heater. The tank, gas valve, thermocouple/pilot, and the burner. I haven't seen to many burners go bad, and the gas valves are pretty reliable, so that leaves only the tank to rust out?

I have an instant hot water heater for my house, and I think it is great for the summer time because I don't have that 40 gallons of water sitting there radiating heat into the house when I don't need it, but in the winter, it is not as efficient as a standard unit because it takes electricity (I know not much) but that electricity is wasted. Those figures are not calculated in the total efficiency.

There are many different options. Choose what you feel is the best. I have worked on high efficient boilers and high efficient furnaces, and they are EXPENSIVE to repair! There are lots of things that can go wrong with them. When it boils down to it (PUN INTENDED). The easiest and cheapest way to heat water is with a steel box and a wood fire. It probably isn't the safest.

 

[mustangfan]

OH yeah, I forgot one other thing is that you don't really want to heat the water to HOT for the cement floor. You can get by with 100' water so a "boiler" is not really needed. If you do have a boiler, you will definitely need a mixing valve. If you use a water heater, be it gas, or electric, you can set the temperature of the thermostat on the heater and then you won't need to have a mixing valve in the system.
If you do use a boiler make sure that you get one sized correctly for the building. If it is turning on and off to much (short cycling) it will wear out faster.

 

[hockey88fan]

I just finished piping mine last weekend. I used a Bosch Greenstar 96% LP boiler. Taking about using a water heater, BrDford White has a GS unit either 30 or 50 gallon storage, each uses a 75, 000 burner and has the ability to store that water at 160*f. This might be a option for you. I can tell you that there is no substitute for using a real boiler as I mentioned above. It has a real heat xchanger, will last many years, uses condensing technology, comes with controls designed to perform in this type of enviroment and is very efficient to operate. The water heater approach is definitely leas expensive upfront but you will be replacing it more often, it also is less efficient, they run in the very low 70% range. Hope this helps. Good luck.

Thanks for the info. I was told a regular electric water heater, one you'd use to heat the water for your home, would not keep up, that as the water returned to the tank it would be of consistently lower temperature with each pass until it was cycling water through the system that wasn't even heated. So I guess an LP boiler would be able to keep up with heating the return water. It is a closed system by the way.

 

[Bondo]

I was told I need a heat source that produces 25,000 btu's, so I was considering

Ayuh,.... At $.07 electric might be an option for ya,....
'round here it's $.14,... Plus Tax,...

Heatin' with electric is insanity,...
NGas is probably cheapest, but ya got live in the distribution areas,...
Propane, I don't care for, as movin' the fuel takes specialized equipment,....
My back up is Oil, I can pump it, 'n move it,....
My primary heat source is my homemade outdoor wood boiler, burnin' free wood I barter for,....

 

[anthony666]

You also do not NEED to vent the water heater to the outside, unless your garage is airtight and you do not open and close the door very often. Their are MANY propane GARAGE heaters that do not have a vent. SO in essence the H2O heater is actually 100% efficient when you do not vent it to the outside

wtf, is that a joke ??? why not just run your truck inside the building then ?? all the heat made would be inside the building .. plus you'd be high as hell for free right up to the point of death .. you can't just arbitrarily run a propane water tank inside a building like that man, that's insane

 

[twinpack]

wtf, is that a joke ??? why not just run your truck inside the building then ?? all the heat made would be inside the building .. plus you'd be high as hell for free right up to the point of death .. you can't just arbitrarily run a propane water tank inside a building like that man, that's insane

Thank you. You read my mind.

 

[mygarageone]

wtf, is that a joke ??? why not just run your truck inside the building then ?? all the heat made would be inside the building .. plus you'd be high as hell for free right up to the point of death .. you can't just arbitrarily run a propane water tank inside a building like that man, that's insane

Believe it or not I was at a home that had an unvented water htr in the attic above the garage . There builer said it would vent out the ridge vent !
I was there to service that very water htr , I told them I wouldn't work on it unless I got the heater vented properly , they said no and I said bye , get some one else.

 

[hockey88fan]

So I was told I need a 7kw electric heater if I would go the electric route. Would something as simple as the one in the link provided work? Or am I missing something? I spoke with an online radiant heat retailer and the boiler they wanted to sell me was $1,100. Now maybe the one here at Home Depot won't work, with the flow rate it has, or maybe it wouldn't handle heating antifreeze water, etc, but I don't know that's why I'm posting. Maybe the one the guy on the phone wants me to buy is required??

http://m.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-8...ectric-Tankless-Water-Heater-ECO-8/203316214/

 

[marty68]

when you heat a building with radiant heat in floor you must keep the building warm. there is a VERY slow recovery time. it maintains a temp extremely well because you are heating that mass of concrete. i would suggest an on demand propane water heater. ste a thermostat to turn on circ. pump when the building gets below a set temp. when on demand sees flow it fires up to 110 degrees pumping through the tubes heating the floor.

 

[kj_mustang]

If you don't know the required flow rate for the system to generate the needed btu's, then you are just guessing on a heat source. You need more info from whomever designed the system.

 

[anthony666]

Believe it or not I was at a home that had an unvented water htr in the attic above the garage . There builer said it would vent out the ridge vent !
I was there to service that very water htr , I told them I wouldn't work on it unless I got the heater vented properly , they said no and I said bye , get some one else.

i totally believe it .. code regs and inspectors are a pain in the ****, but stuff like that is why they have to exist

 

[anthony666]

So I was told I need a 7kw electric heater if I would go the electric route. Would something as simple as the one in the link provided work? Or am I missing something? I spoke with an online radiant heat retailer and the boiler they wanted to sell me was $1,100. Now maybe the one here at Home Depot won't work, with the flow rate it has, or maybe it wouldn't handle heating antifreeze water, etc, but I don't know that's why I'm posting. Maybe the one the guy on the phone wants me to buy is required??

http://m.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart-8...ectric-Tankless-Water-Heater-ECO-8/203316214/

according to the ecosmart website their stuff is up to the task of space heating .. get a piping diagram from them and follow it to the letter if you want any chance of a warranty claim to happen .. that unit only has 1/2" inlets which will cause a lot of head pressure if the rest of the system is 3/4" so choose your pump accordingly .. and try to install the unit close to your breakers

 

[mygarageone]

i totally believe it .. code regs and inspectors are a pain in the ****, but stuff like that is why they have to exist

i

That's correct , but first the inspectors have to get called by the contractors in order for it to do any good. There is a ton of work done with out permits and by Unlic people around this area , they did catch one guy after several installs.
He went to jail and fined $30,000 an acummalation of all the work he ended up getting nailed for.

 

[hockey88fan]

according to the ecosmart website their stuff is up to the task of space heating .. get a piping diagram from them and follow it to the letter if you want any chance of a warranty claim to happen .. that unit only has 1/2" inlets which will cause a lot of head pressure if the rest of the system is 3/4" so choose your pump accordingly .. and try to install the unit close to your breakers

Ok thanks, No one really designed my system, I just ran the 4 loops of pex, about 12" apart- 6" along the perimeter, before they poured the concrete floor. I do have those loops hooked up to a manifold, that's as far as I got.

 

[jvitez]

How about these guys? No affiliation, I bookmarked their site as I thought it was a nice one-stop-shop for radiant heat.

http://www.radiantmadesimple.com/

 

[anthony666]

How about these guys? No affiliation, I bookmarked their site as I thought it was a nice one-stop-shop for radiant heat.

http://www.radiantmadesimple.com/

it is cheap, but there are some glaring errors in hydronic building there .. zero air separation, expansion tank on the cold side, no provision for automatic make up water, air traps galore, it's all thread together .. just gross

 

[jvitez]

Anthony666: good to know! Thanks for your pro advice.

Do you know of any company that makes a properly done pre-made in-floor radiant control panel? Or is the best way to custom do each system based on it's unique parameters?

 

[anthony666]

Anthony666: good to know! Thanks for your pro advice.

Do you know of any company that makes a properly done pre-made in-floor radiant control panel? Or is the best way to custom do each system based on it's unique parameters?

nothing can beat a custom system designed for the application

that said the hydrosmart p-s systems are real nice out of the box for single zone garage type set ups .. it ticks all the boxes for me; primary secondary piping, real air eliminator, everything where it should be, they use a small electric boiler which i am not a fan of, but they use a steibel eltron which is a great brand, no black iron, horizontal gauges etc etc

the only one thing i would change is the t&p valve placement .. it should be closer to the heating element in my book, but otherwise these guys really hit it out of the park

 

[yeldogt]

With your electric rates I think you would be happy with an electric boiler ... Most projects tend to be pay now or pay later ... So my advise would be to get a quality unit designed to be a boiler it will work longer .. and the softer start units are great as they don't cause lights to flicker. I use one in a smaller space -- no problems in 10 years. Propane is going to be far more complex ... and the fuel cost are all over the place. My electric rates are almost .20 at my places.

If you are handy getting the parts and putting it together should not be a problem -- I bought an book almost 20 years ago called "pumping away" and designed my first system with it and it is still going strong.

IF all the zones are going to be tied together -- I don't see the need to have Primary and Secondary with two pumps costs. Maybe anthony666 can chime in as he seems to do many of these.

 

[DonPowers]

Here is a good site on radiant heat, lots of good stuff by John Slegenthaler the radiant & hydronics guru.

http://www.radiantandhydronics.com/t...glitch-the-fix

 

[anthony666]

Maybe anthony666 can chime in as he seems to do many of these.

lol

well for a start you are splitting the head load in the system, which leads to way less internal wear and tear and pump longevity .. it gives you the ability to control the flow through the boiler and the load independently via hydaulic separation .. there are many times when the system water is warm enough to continue to circulate through the floor but there's not enough temperature differential to warrant turning on the boiler .. there are times when the boiler needs to cool down so it doesn't trip the t&p but the floor isn't calling etc etc

properly designed your hydronic system should last a bare minimum of 25 years with not much more than an annual check up .. p/s piping is part of that strategy .. if it costs an extra 100 dollars to build that in at the get go that equates to only 4 bucks a year over the projected minimum life of the system .. doesn't that sound like a good deal ?? if building a proper p/s system saves you a measly 4 dollars with of fuel a year it's paid for itself .. the question should be 'why would you not do it ??'

 

[anthony666]

John Slegenthaler

siegenthaler is the MAN when it comes to radiant .. 99% of the stuff i do is based on his methods and thinking

 

[hockey88fan]

nothing can beat a custom system designed for the application



that said the hydrosmart p-s systems are real nice out of the box for single zone garage type set ups .. it ticks all the boxes for me; primary secondary piping, real air eliminator, everything where it should be, they use a small electric boiler which i am not a fan of, but they use a steibel eltron which is a great brand, no black iron, horizontal gauges etc etc



the only one thing i would change is the t&p valve placement .. it should be closer to the heating element in my book, but otherwise these guys really hit it out of the park

Are you talking about the systems offered by h2oplus.us?

 

[anthony666]

Are you talking about the systems offered by h2oplus.us?

yes .. their 'p-s' series stuff specifically

 

[yeldogt]

Anthony666: Most of my radiant systems have been installed while doing extensive rehabs of very old structures -- mostly stone. My preferred system in the oldest parts are Panel or Runtal type radiators. With outdoor reset and continuous flow to the radiators it creates basically a primary boiler loop. The small pumps are about 85w -- so I have about .40 per day to run the pump. The lower temp floors having separate pumps pulling water from the boiler loop.

That is how I run my small studio in the city - the pump runs most of the time and the electric boiler is on and off -- only three shortish floor loops all running same temps all with exterior reset.

I have never installed a system without continuous circulation/reset .. nor have I ever used a large high temp boiler. I would think with a high temp -- primary secondary would be required ... or highly advised.

In my case -- I used Dan Holohan's theories .. actually went to a couple of classes years ago.

 

[anthony666]

outdoor reset is must in my view .. you don't need the same btu input when it's 50 degrees outside as you do when it's 20, if your boiler can modulate let it

which is why i'm puzzled by you choosing constant circulation, if your pumps don't need to run, why run them ?? are you worried about freeze protection ?? pushing cold water into a rad will just make the t-stat call that much faster

do you have the rads run in series with temperature bypass valves ??

i have two ways i run rad reno jobs;

-p/s, with individual pumps on larger systems .. sometimes i'll chain a couple of rads in series with temp bypasses or in paralell with differential balancers

-p/s, with zone valves on the return side and a single load sensing pump

 

[jvitez]

anthony666: many thanks for the hydrosmart p/s link. I found a site that sells pre-made panels, and even ships to Canada. Except for the sinking Canuck buck....

 

[anthony666]

no problem, hope it fits the bill for you

 

[yeldogt]

Anthony666: I'm in the mid - atlantic. So during the heating season the panel radiators are always delivering some heat to the rooms -- unless we get a hot day .. then the whole system shuts off. The only pump that is always running is the one feeding the panels and basically acting as a primary loop.

Off of the main loop -- the first is the indirect water heater w/pump -- then the various mixing loops w/ manifolds to the different floor types ...each with a pump. Finally the manifold to the radiators w/ pump. The panel radiators do have the bypass on the bottom with the danfoss thermostat .. I use a manifold to maintain equal heat to the panels and to also control my towels racks etc. with separate thermostats. These are reasonable large houses -- and the older parts are stone .. so higher heat loss then one would like.

 

[anthony666]

yel .. you're in nyc iirc, yea ??

if you have a main loop, and stuff coming off that loop, you have p/s piping .. so there !!