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Indirect hot water heater opinions, please step inside

chrispyny

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
467
Location
albany, ny
The hot water baseboard boiler is as old as this house. 47-48 years old. It’s a National boiler. Cast iron. Made in America. Works fine. But getting scary old.

My hot water heater is now 27 years old. Yes, natural gas water heater, ServiceStar band, 40 gal, 27 years old. Barring a major change in plans, we will be in this house till we are both ready to retire from the telephone company. I have 22 years, and she has 25. My goal is 32-33 years before i retire, so that leaves us approx 10-11 years in this house. House has been gone thru, all rooms but the kitchen were recently fully remodeled by me, massive insulation in the attic done, and new roof 2 years ago. Major deck just put on house out back, patio going in underneath in a few weeks.

So whats left is the kitchen, windows and maybe siding down the road. The house is SOLID.

Having said that, raised ranches aren’t known for storage. I have been very thrifty with how we deal with storing things, and we have become good at it. The next thing i want is to replace the old boiler and to gain more room in the garage, ditch the ng water heater, which frees up room for my welder/plasma cutter cart, (26”x26” floor space) and move the heater into the boiler closet in the garage adjacent to where the water heater sits now.

I figure, with the new weil mclain boiler i want being HALF the size of this national boiler, and being that i have a buddy at work who does hvac on the side, and does meticulous work, i am considering replacing the old boiler with a weil mclain boiler, and installing an indirect tank right next to it in the boiler closet.

Even if planned and completed poorly, there should be room for the new boiler and indirect heater in the closet. And if done well, there should be plenty of space for both. My only concern would be room to replace the indirect heater in the future if it were to fail. Clearly i need enough room to remove the failed indirect heater and replace it with new. Thats a logistics issue i can work on.

I spoke to my buddy and he’s ready to do the work at any time. I decided late summer. So since i usually investigate and research months in advance before spending any kind of serious money on something, i want the hives opinion on indirect water heaters.

A standard replacement ng heater to replace what i have is approx $500 after tax and installation is elementary for me. Negatives are no gain of space. Benefits are ease of replacement & cost of replacement in the future.

An alternative considered option for hot water is a renaii wall mounted tankless, which would run approx $1,200 and is also an elementary install for me. Negatives are cost, and delay of hot water which ***** specifically for my H.e. clothes washer which in essence would never see hot water again due to the meager amount of water it uses, even with a full load. The tankless would literally be 6’ away from the renaii but with the little water the washer draws, it would not trigger the renaii to kick on.

Lastly is the 40 gal indirect fired tank. With a new weil mclain boiler, and the addition of just one more zone valve, i can have hot water generated right from the boiler. Pro’s are added space in the garage. Cons are the cost of an Indirect tank. At approx $1,100 for a Weil Mclain unit to match the boiler. Also relying on the need for the boiler to be on and properly functioning all year long which reduces redundancy, and brings the question. Whats more efficient, running a boiler all year for hot water, or a seperate ng boiler for hot water, allowing to turn off the boiler in the non heating season?

The weil mclain boiler is approx $2,000, the weil mclain indirect tank is $1,100. $3,100 plus tax, ancillaries, and labor, call it $5,500 engineered, designed, installed. I want this heating system redesigned and replaced this late summer so its happening.

Anyone care to share their opinions or ideas?

Notes to include, water is city water and very soft with little to no minerals, house is 1400 sq ft in upstate NY, back up heat is covered twice over with a wood stove, and if necessary, my ductless minisplits which i really only use for a/c in the summer. I i have the house covered for power outtages with a diesel genset when necessary.

Ty all.
 
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squeezer

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
7
In our last house we replaced a standard NG HWH with a tankless and thought it was great. Used it for a bunch of years and then replaced it with an indirect when the new boiler went in. We LOVED the indirect. It is the best of all options in every performance measure you can name. I would gladly pay the difference in cost to add the indirect and never look back.
 

Bondo

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
2,550
Location
Greenfield, Maine
Indirect hot water heater opinions, please step inside

Ayuh,...... My situation is similar, but different,......

Here in my tiny house, it had oil hot air when I bought it,.....
1st major overhaul was ditchin' the huge hot air furnace, 'n puttin' in, in-floor radient, 'n a tiny Well McClain boiler, also oil fired, as NG ain't 'round here,....
The thing is tiny, a front castin', 'n the back castin', no center castin's,....
When I plumbed the whole system, I left a port available to use the boiler's 180* water, before the mixer which cools the in-floor water down to 'bout 110*,.....
Due to the fact the boiler isn't deep enough to house an in-boiler dw heater coil,....
I'm buildin' an in-direct dw heater outa a 30lb. propane tank, which I've adapted to hold a big in-boiler dw heatin' coil,.....
This system will have it's own aqua-stat to hold it's temp near or at 180*,.....

I know this coil can supply continuous hot water, as it did in the old house, bolted into that oil boiler, which I heated with my home built outdoor wood boiler,.....
All winter, it was free hot water,.... durin' the summer, I'd fire the outdoor boiler once a week or so,.... til king andy declared I couldn't run the outdoor boiler from May to September,....

I've got the system 'bout done, but now have to build a tiny cabinet around it to hold the insulation around it,....
So, I won't have any results for awhile,....
I'm gonna keep the 30 gallon electric water heater in-place for now, possibly ditchin' it later, as I have use for it elsewhere,....
Eventually, I'll have a propane on-demand dwheater down there for back-up, 'n to save the space,.....

The year or so I ran the old house on oil for the summer hot water, I figure it cost about the same as runnin' an electric DWHeater,....
Way more than wood or gas,....
 
Last edited:

Jackfre

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
4,412
Location
N CA
Given that you are replacing the boiler and have heavily insulated the place the one piece of info you leave out is the heat loss of the remodeled house. You might look at the Buderus line. They offer a vertical indirect/boiler combination that may be just the ticket for you. Weil's are good boilers as well. Given that you now have room for the plasma/welder you could weld up a frame to support the boiler above and indirect. That will not be allowed however if you do not post pictures.
 
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HoosierBuddy

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
2,932
Location
Southern Indiana
I think all of your choices are solid. Not sure there is a "wrong" one.

In the past, when I've looked at indirect hot water tanks, I've been surprised at how pricey they are. If you can buy a tank style water heater for the same price as the hot water tank....I think I'd just go that route probably. My thought is, the boiler and indirect heater might very well have more heat loss to the environment (your closet I guess?) than a water heater. It doesn't really matter in the winter as much (as the heat will heat your house a bit) but in the summer you not only lose that heat, you have to pay to get rid of it with your AC system.

If that leads you to separate appliances, then you're just back to the "should I buy a tankless water heater" question that is discussed elsewhere on this board.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Phil
 

aandpdan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
849
Location
In between MA and PA
Start off with a heat loss calculation to make sure your new boiler is correctly sized. Bigger is not better. With all that insulation you can likely get a much smaller unit.

I have an indirect on my HTP condensing boiler. If I'm not drawing hot water the boiler seldom starts. It can go days with no use. There is a lot of insulation on an indirect and there are no losses from the flue.

There is little mass in a modern boiler. It will only run to make hot water (or heat). It does not remain at 180 year round like an old school boiler with a tankless coil.

I also never run out of hot water. With a 30 gallon indirect I can make over 200 gallons of hot water an hour.

As for redundancy, you're talking one burner vs two. Consider that if you don't have a way to make hot water on your boiler then what happens if your water heater quits? You still have no hot water. Your water heater can't heat the house either.

I'd never go back to a stand alone.
 
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