Induction Lighting

[rinny_tin_tin]

With all the noise on the board re: fluorescent ltg and crappy CFLs - why have you all ignored induction ltg? If you are going to support the mercury and oil industry, you need to look at induction lights. 100,000 hour bulb life, no electrode, fast on regardless of temp.....

See here

http://www.everlastlight.com/indoor_induction_lighting.html

 

[dstryr]

OSI has had them out for years. I don't know that anyone is really ignoring them because they are so expensive that they are not practical to install in a garage and they haven't become a popular choice. A few years ago there were virtually no fixtures from the major commercial lighting manufacturers that could utilize the induction lamp. Even for a retrofit cove lighting application a single lamp/ballast combination was in the $600-$700 range, and a fixture is not required to mount them. The place for these 100,000 hour fixtures is in very difficult to access areas. For now, T8s, T5s and CFLs will be the economical and practical choices for garage lighting.

 

[dstryr]

http://www.saveonlighting.com/cat_brand-sylvania-fluorescent-icetron_electrodeless_lamps.htm

http://www.sylvanialightbulbs.com/sylvania_t17_u_shaped_fluorescents.html


They're still looking kinda spendy!

 

[thdewey]

What the hell is an induction light? I've never heard of them. How do they work?

 

[rsanter]

induction is a type or florecent lighting. the little element that excited the gas in the tube is not there but rather the gas is excited by an external coil. that is why they have such a long life.
these are a bit expensive but they are perfect for high bay applications where changing them will be very dificult or even dangerious

bob

 

[ghlkal]

the gas is excited by an external coil

Wouldn't induction lights still produce RFI?

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

OSI has had them out for years. I don't know that anyone is really ignoring them because they are so expensive that they are not practical to install in a garage and they haven't become a popular choice. A few years ago there were virtually no fixtures from the major commercial lighting manufacturers that could utilize the induction lamp. Even for a retrofit cove lighting application a single lamp/ballast combination was in the $600-$700 range, and a fixture is not required to mount them. The place for these 100,000 hour fixtures is in very difficult to access areas. For now, T8s, T5s and CFLs will be the economical and practical choices for garage lighting.

I guess it depends where you look an if you look hard enuff

http://www.lightbulbemporium.com/ge_ge25418_el23_r25_sw.asp
http://www.elightbulbs.com/catalog_product.cfm?source=GoogleBaseCSE&prod=SL26153

Macy' saves and for $30 a piece

http://www.environmentalleader.com/...rams-electrodeless-compact-fluorescent-bulbs/

I think the price has dropped down enuf on these items so as to be cost-effective for the average joe garage - however, they do have an incredible ROI in industrial/commercial settings since maintenance manpower for ltg alone can reduce at least 50%

 

[dstryr]

I guess it depends where you look an if you look hard enuff

http://www.lightbulbemporium.com/ge_ge25418_el23_r25_sw.asp
http://www.elightbulbs.com/catalog_product.cfm?source=GoogleBaseCSE&prod=SL26153

Macy' saves and for $30 a piece

http://www.environmentalleader.com/...rams-electrodeless-compact-fluorescent-bulbs/

I think the price has dropped down enuf on these items so as to be cost-effective for the average joe garage - however, they do have an incredible ROI in industrial/commercial settings since maintenance manpower for ltg alone can reduce at least 50%

But a person is not required to buy a lamp AND ballast because for repair & maintenance you don't have to replace both, so the part numbers you have listed is for the lamp only. The ballast in going to run you another $200-$300, but I have not looked it up.

You're back up to $500+ with tax and you don't have a fixture to put them in yet.

I would still prefer a linear lighting source for a garage because a person will have MUCH less shadowing from a long light source than from a compact source. Anyone doing work in their garage will understand how nice it is not not have shadows and not have to worry about where they park to get the best light when they pull into the garage. Even if the efficacy is slightly higher from and induction lamp, you can't get the light to where you need it from a compact source so the result is using more fixtures to get the light distribution that works.

I don't know if a person could realize a payback using the induction lamp/ballast. The payback in this type is still going to be in LABOR savings on high ceilinged, hard to reach places. How 'bout over a pool that has to be drained and scaffolding erected to change lighting , or on radio transmission towers?



EDIT: I just looked up the ballast for the 150watt Icetron lamp you listed. $599.00

That gets you to almost $900 for one set.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

But a person is not required to buy a lamp AND ballast because for repair & maintenance you don't have to replace both, so the part numbers you have listed is for the lamp only. The ballast in going to run you another $200-$300, but I have not looked it up.

You're back up to $500+ with tax and you don't have a fixture to put them in yet.

I would still prefer a linear lighting source for a garage because a person will have MUCH less shadowing from a long light source than from a compact source. Anyone doing work in their garage will understand how nice it is not not have shadows and not have to worry about where they park to get the best light when they pull into the garage. Even if the efficacy is slightly higher from and induction lamp, you can't get the light to where you need it from a compact source so the result is using more fixtures to get the light distribution that works.

I don't know if a person could realize a payback using the induction lamp/ballast. The payback in this type is still going to be in LABOR savings on high ceilinged, hard to reach places. How 'bout over a pool that has to be drained and scaffolding erected to change lighting , or on radio transmission towers?



EDIT: I just looked up the ballast for the 150watt Icetron lamp you listed. $599.00

That gets you to almost $900 for one set.

You seem biased against induction ltg - for whatever reason. That's OK -Most folks do have a problem accepting new technology. You seem to rely on quicky Google searches in lieu recognizing search engine shortcomings and doing a little bit of info mining and research. Didn't you read the Macy's story I provided?

An important item to remember is that the predominating load in operating costs for all businesses is the cost of human resources (that is variable resources), and for production facilities, maintenance is about 20 to 48% of the variable costs (depending upon industry) Now --just think how better off GM would now be if they could have terminated 50% of their maintenance people because they went to induction ltg - instead of having armies of highly-paid UAW gray shirts pushing plastic carts of fluorescent bulbs and other illuminating junk routinely through the production floors. Hey, benefits/medical/retirement all factor into CBA analyses. The lifespan of ind is 100,000 hrs - that is 11-1/2 years!!! For your average resident garage bubba whose crowded two-bay man-cave also doubles as storage for a child's BigWheel, the ROI may not be so attractive, but for many others it is.

Many orgs, including GSA are moving towards ind ltg and LED ltg as part of recent DOE research/directives that will be strongly supported by the Obama admin. I welcome the new tek since it not only tames the Hg problem, but also tames the foreign oil problem as well as the melting arctic cap problem.

 

[dstryr]

Let's not make this personal and I am not new at this game. I just am pointing out the costs of the induction lights and they are NOT a bargain. The last thing I am against is new technology. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to guide a $6m dollar business to $12m in ONE YEAR by selling old fashioned light bulbs in the industry I am in.

MY info is from direct contact with OSI(that's Osram Sylvania, Inc.) which originated this technology several years ago. YOU do your google searches and I'll stick with what I learn and discuss with OSI application engineers and experience in the real world.

YOU started this post by suggesting the induction lamps are good for a garage. Unless someone has money to burn it is hard to justify the expense of these in a stinkin' garage for pete's sake.


How much labor $$ could you possibly save by having these in your garage? 1/2 hour every 5 years X your own time( pretty cheap) is, doing the math, carry the zero, Yep, $0.00 savings for the homeowner, give or take a dollar.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Let's not make this personal and I am not new at this game. I just am pointing out the costs of the induction lights and they are NOT a bargain. The last thing I am against is new technology. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to guide a $6m dollar business to $12m in ONE YEAR by selling old fashioned light bulbs in the industry I am in.

MY info is from direct contact with OSI(that's Osram Sylvania, Inc.) which originated this technology several years ago. YOU do your google searches and I'll stick with what I learn and discuss with OSI application engineers and experience in the real world.

YOU started this post by suggesting the induction lamps are good for a garage. Unless someone has money to burn it is hard to justify the expense of these in a stinkin' garage for pete's sake.


How much labor $$ could you possibly save by having these in your garage? 1/2 hour every 5 years X your own time( pretty cheap) is, doing the math, carry the zero, Yep, $0.00 savings for the homeowner, give or take a dollar.

Having a bad hair day ..eh?

Look - these are your own words from your previous post:

"I don't know if a person could realize a payback using the induction lamp/ballast. "

Now you seem to have all the answers - and your brief posted resume gives me goosebumps. Go vent elsewhere - go kick the dog or sumthin.

 

[dstryr]

Payback in a garage for an $800 light source? You're kidding, right? My grandkids would be dead before there was a PAYBACK if I had 4 of these in my garage.

YOU started this in the GARAGE section, now you want to talk about GSA, Macy's and all that other **** you found with YOUR google searches. Your failure to present a knowledgable and competent argument is taking this in circles.

Bubba and your average garage owner(your words, not mine) are not buying these for the reason I posted in the first place- they are too stinkin' expensive for a GARAGE.


Now when you get a few of these screwed to your kitchen ceiling, take some pics and show us how nice they look. You'll have enough light to operate under them, but it's a good idea to have them since in most households kitchen lights are on 2-1 over anything else. LOL Don't forget to post your pics.

For everyone else, don't drink the kool-aid!

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

Payback in a garage for an $800 light source? You're kidding, right? My grandkids would be dead before there was a PAYBACK if I had 4 of these in my garage.

YOU started this in the GARAGE section, now you want to talk about GSA, Macy's and all that other **** you found with YOUR google searches. Your failure to present a knowledgable and competent argument is taking this in circles.

Bubba and your average garage owner(your words, not mine) are not buying these for the reason I posted in the first place- they are too stinkin' expensive for a GARAGE.


Now when you get a few of these screwed to your kitchen ceiling, take some pics and show us how nice they look. You'll have enough light to operate under them, but it's a good idea to have them since in most households kitchen lights are on 2-1 over anything else. LOL Don't forget to post your pics.

For everyone else, don't drink the kool-aid!

Don't drink the Kool aid - eh? and you think that everyone was waiting for your blessing and approval? Hey - go take your blood pressure medicine - the top of your ears are turning red again

Next time - think before you speak - or post emails

LOL

 

[dstryr]

rinky dink dink says induction lights are a great idea for a garage
dstryr's OPINION is that it is not cost effective and talks about real-world experience.
rinky dink talks about GSA and Macy's which is wholly unrelated to residential garages
dstryr brings the convo back to GARAGES
rinky dink implies dstryr is closed-minded
dstryr talks about the real world and LOOKS UP the pricing rinky forgot to look up
rinky dink thinks people need dstryr's blessing(for what I don't know?)
dstryr's whole point continues to be that induction lighting in a garage is not cost-effective for rinky's 'average joe'.
rinky says not to get worked up
dstryr is listening to ONLY that part of rinky's advice, and thanks him for it.

 

[rinny_tin_tin]

rinky dink dink says induction lights are a great idea for a garage
dstryr's OPINION is that it is not cost effective and talks about real-world experience.
rinky dink talks about GSA and Macy's which is wholly unrelated to residential garages
dstryr brings the convo back to GARAGES
rinky dink implies dstryr is closed-minded
dstryr talks about the real world and LOOKS UP the pricing rinky forgot to look up
rinky dink thinks people need dstryr's blessing(for what I don't know?)
dstryr's whole point continues to be that induction lighting in a garage is not cost-effective for rinky's 'average joe'.
rinky says not to get worked up
dstryr is listening to ONLY that part of rinky's advice, and thanks him for it.

Rinky says you are very welcome

 

[ForceFed70]

Here is a great unbiased FAQ from Philips. They have no reason to lie, they sell induction lighting themselves.

http://www.optimumlighting.com/services/faqs-introduction-lighting/

From the sound of if: The only advantage vs T5 or T8 is the bulb life. So you'd only want to use it in an area where it's very difficult to change the lamps.

 

[Shocker]

I don't understand why this is being discussed. Induction lighting looks cool, it appears to cost a ton. And I don't know anyone who has a ceiling high enough to justify them.

Thanks to FF70 for the link. Seems to cover the major questions.

To RTT, give us a real world example of a single lamp ready to install.

My T8 installation cost about 14 bucks per unit. My lamps have been installed for 4 years and so far none have died requiring replacement.

I understand the point you are trying to make with the labor and all, but how many folks on here have shops with a 30 foot ceiling?

Now if this was warehouse journal...

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I don't understand why this is being discussed. Induction lighting looks cool, it appears to cost a ton. And I don't know anyone who has a ceiling high enough to justify them.

Thanks to FF70 for the link. Seems to cover the major questions.

To RTT, give us a real world example of a single lamp ready to install.

My T8 installation cost about 14 bucks per unit. My lamps have been installed for 4 years and so far none have died requiring replacement.

I understand the point you are trying to make with the labor and all, but how many folks on here have shops with a 30 foot ceiling?

Now if this was warehouse journal...

Well, if there was a Warehouse Journal, we would also be discussing JLG vs Genie Sissor Lifts...making the whole bulb changing thing a moot point anyways.
These induction lights are cool and all, but beyond cool, they just dont have a place in a garage..even if I had won that huge PowerBall jackpot the other week, I wouldnt have wasted my money on Induction lighting...
Saying the GSA uses them just makes me less apt to buying them...just proves to me they are way more expensive then they need to be. The gov spends 100 bucks to do something that costs private industry 10.00 to do.

We could have this same debate of T5 vs T8 right now in terms of Less Power, More Light, Payback & ROI.....I know I'm debating it...costs are a little closer together making it actually a discussion worth talking about.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I don't understand why this is being discussed. Induction lighting looks cool, it appears to cost a ton. And I don't know anyone who has a ceiling high enough to justify them.

Well, it was a zombie thread brought back from the dead by a new member.

 

[ForceFed70]

Well, it was a zombie thread brought back from the dead by a new member.

Good point. I didn't even notice that. Looks mighty suspicious.

 

[ishiboo]

It was spam, clearly. It's already been deleted.

Bringing this thread back though is interesting - why was RTT so interested in induction lighting which is clearly not mainstream nor a better choice for nearly 99.9999999% of us?

Seems a really strange battle to fight.

 

[christmascompany]

Hi, Thanks for explain about Induction lighting.

 

[Shocker]

Man, I never look at those dates...I is a maaaaroooon.

 

[energyma]

Hello all, I am a new member here but not new to induction. I am not sure where all these outlandish pricing is being referred, maybe because people only look to Philips and Sylvania for Induction pricing from Google shopping? Let me tell you that you are waaay off. My company has retrofitted over 30 garages with induction and have yet to deliver an ROI greater than 1.8 years. Most are closer to 1.25 years...including labor! Everything is UL Listed, proven product, and very cost effective.

My last proposal was against T8...a new T8 fixture with 24,000 hour life lamps vs our UL Listed 80W induction retrofit kit, both including labor...were the exact same price! We specialize in garage lighting and it is because of these results we are leading the way. Plus, the rebates offered for induction blow away those for T8. Reach out if you wish to discuss further. Travis

 

[energyma]

Oh yeah, that Macy's comment...our company retrofitted Macy's corporate headquarters parking garage from 150W HPS to 80W induction, reach out and I will send you a picture. It is very compelling. Enjoy the holiday season!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It was spam, clearly. It's already been deleted.

Bringing this thread back though is interesting - why was RTT so interested in induction lighting which is clearly not mainstream nor a better choice for nearly 99.9999999% of us?

Seems a really strange battle to fight.

Just gotta love the spammers especially on a board like this where they think they can pull a fast one on us sparkies and seasoned veterans of the field! Just like the 2 comments above mine! LoL

Yeah, clearly induction lighting is only cost effective for MAYBE 1% of the market!

 

[energyma]

Sorry, my brother, this is not SPAM...these messages is from someone who apparently knows A LOT more about the induction industry that you do. I actually provided the product and the 1.5 year ROI for Macy's and the 1.3 year ROI for Rubbermaid corporate headquarters parking garages. These "other" comments are apparently from those that only seek Google shopping pricing. I insist that you reach out to me directly and obtain pricing for your projects...so I can prove you wrong and you can start posting constructive message to the board.

I am simply here to set the record straight...that apparently has been misguided for many years. twilliams at energyma . net. But if UL Listed certified product from companies you use everyday are not convincing enough, then continue to believe what you read on the internet.

 

[ForceFed70]

We can argue qualifications/experience until we are blue in the face. But numbers don't lie.

If you don't mind: Please show us how you are calculating ROI for this sort of thing. How about a T8 to Induction lighting calculation?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Energyma: I hardly install lights in big garages! But I've seen the #s and they don't lie. There's no way I could justify buying those ridiculously priced lights for a client's garage nor my garage that has 3 T8 fixtures that have the original installed bulbs which are 10+ yrs old(they're hardly used!)

 

[Shocker]

Exactly. I will repeat my previous question. Give us a real world example that works for us.
This is not Parking Garage Journal or Huge Department Store Journal.

The majority of us have small shops with 8-14 foot ceilings. I just can't see induction lighting being a valid alternative to T8 or CFL lighting.

My setup includes a bunch of T8 fixtures that cost 10 bucks each with bulbs being 2 bucks or so each.

Tell me how you would do induction lighting in my 24x32 shop with 10 foot ceilings. My bet is that a single fixture costs more than my entire lighting setup by a good bit.

 

[Shocker]

Ok, let me see if I can answer my own question. Here is something I found:

http://www.buylightfixtures.com/garage-induction-light-fixture.aspx?gclid=CNXZvdmFoLQCFYp_QgodXX0AUQ

$632 free shipping. Includes a 80w lamp. For ceiling less than 15'. 5000k color (same as what I have).

Is this a valid fixture to use? How many would I need? It uses 80w lamps so more than my dual 32w lamps. Would I need 8? 6?

I currently have 18 T8 fixtures in place. Maybe 300 bucks total for all my lamps.

Show me the cost savings. If I put in 8 of these, that is about 5k plus DIY installation. And that gets 640w of light. Not sure how many lumens.

The T8's are 1160w of power consumed. So 1/2 the juice give or take. Bulbs are 25k hours vs 100k hours. To me that is a wash as I haven't replaced any bulbs in the 4 years they have been up.

So how long to get any kind of return on the investment? Figure 8 hours a day goofing around in the shop. .10 per kilowatt hour (example).

T8 - 18.65 per fixture per year. - 18 fixtures - $335.52 per year
Induction - 23.30 per fixture per year - 8 fixtures - $186.40 per year

$149 per year extra to run the T8's.

So I figure that I will start to get my money back in 33 years give or take.

Did I make any mistakes? Of course some of the figures are random guesses (KWH etc).

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thx Shocker for the #s and as I already said to energyma(maybe not loud enough) THE #s DON'T LIE!

 

[kert]

Ok, let me see if I can answer my own question. Here is something I found:

http://www.buylightfixtures.com/garage-induction-light-fixture.aspx?gclid=CNXZvdmFoLQCFYp_QgodXX0AUQ

$632 free shipping. Includes a 80w lamp. For ceiling less than 15'. 5000k color (same as what I have).

Is this a valid fixture to use? How many would I need? It uses 80w lamps so more than my dual 32w lamps. Would I need 8? 6?

I currently have 18 T8 fixtures in place. Maybe 300 bucks total for all my lamps.

Show me the cost savings. If I put in 8 of these, that is about 5k plus DIY installation. And that gets 640w of light. Not sure how many lumens.

The T8's are 1160w of power consumed. So 1/2 the juice give or take. Bulbs are 25k hours vs 100k hours. To me that is a wash as I haven't replaced any bulbs in the 4 years they have been up.

So how long to get any kind of return on the investment? Figure 8 hours a day goofing around in the shop. .10 per kilowatt hour (example).

T8 - 18.65 per fixture per year. - 18 fixtures - $335.52 per year
Induction - 23.30 per fixture per year - 8 fixtures - $186.40 per year

$149 per year extra to run the T8's.

So I figure that I will start to get my money back in 33 years give or take.

Did I make any mistakes? Of course some of the figures are random guesses (KWH etc).

Add to that the time value of money. If instead of spending $5000 on lights you invested that money into say paying down your mortgage at say 2.5% APR (on the low side even with today's rates), you would make $150 a year return on your investment so you'd still come out $1/yr ahead. Of course you can probably find an investment that pays better than 2.5%, but that's just an easy example.

 

[ForceFed70]

I think it's only fair to consider the time it takes to replace lamps. Paying yourself a reasonable hourly rate.

Also. I really doubt that a $10 T8 fixture is going to have nearly the lifespan of a $500 Induction Fixture.

Induction lighting is certainly not twice as efficient. I'm pretty sure it's only about 20% more efficient at the best of times.

But even if you buy commercial quality T8 fixtures at $40 a pop and add a few hours of your time for lamp changes, I still think the ROI will come out in favor of T8 lighting.

 

[Shocker]

Agreed, but I have to say that my Lights of America fixtures have been just fine. I had a couple of bad ones from the first lot I bought out of the box, but the newer ones I bought in the last couple years have been great. No issues.

Now, will they last for 20 years? I dunno, but I am happy so far.

Weylie/Kert - Them thar figures were just simple comparison numbers. There are probably ways the pro-induction guys can come up with something. I would love to see their comparison numbers.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Notice how they don't respond to our numerous requests for their ROI #s!

 

[Shocker]

Ya, I figured that if I just did some simple math after finding a usable fixture that it wouldn't pencil out.

Now I can see the advantages for a large warehouse with high ceilings and such, but trying to convince us that it makes sense for your average shop owner is nutz.