Industrial Sockets - Metric?

[Tomzbox]

Anybody else prefer black oxide to chrome? I've worked with a lot of steel and just don't "fear" rust like most folks. Rust is easily handled if need be. If proper care is used it's not a problem anyway. To me chrome is veneer and oxide is surface conversion. Like comparing welding to gluing you might say.
I like SnapOn black non-impact sockets but they don't come in metric. I don't think they ever did. I've looked and haven't found anybody who makes black metric regular sockets. I prefer American but European or Japanese is fine. I don't mind buying used either. Anybody know what's up?

 

[BK13]

Williams I think offers some orange colored tools, they may do black as well.


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[Tomzbox]

Sounds like a get lost to me.

 

[dutchgray]

I think Koken does an industrial black oxide range.

 

[Tomzbox]

Thanks for a serious reply. Beginning to wonder. Maybe I should replace all wording with "Industrial". Seems like there would be at least a little interest here on why no metric industrial finish. Do Europeans only use chrome even in industrial? And please keep your politics out of it. If you can't evaluate a tools finish on facts you are amateur at best.

 

[Dave455]

O.p. I totally understand where you are coming from.

I have a number of tools by a long gone British manufacturer called Garrington. I often pick 'em up if I see them used, especially the adjustables. Unfortunately, adjustables often have dents and nicks on them.

If it's a chrome tool, you can't do much about that, so I don't buy them unless they are in really good condition. On the black / unfinished tools however, it's a different story. I can clean 'em up, stone out any dinks, and polish the result. Consequently I've got several black / unfinished tools that I've been able to restore to minty condition. Not so the chrome.

I've also got a few older wrenches from the post war period that were also unchromed. Again, many are still in first class condition, though admittedly the steel was first class.

Ultimately, the quality of the steel is more important than the quality of the finish. On a budget, I'd rather have tools of first class steel with a plain finish than cheaper chromed ones!

 

[Tomzbox]

Thanks Dave455, my question seems to have fallen into a pocket of ignorance here. I had a metal working shop for 15 years and have slung more steel than you'd believe. I do not trust chrome. Stress it and it pops up to cut you. I use my tools for work not as jewelry. The only good reason I've heard for using chrome sockets for automotive is they are easier to find when you drop them. I am restoring also, black oxide gives you options. Re-chroming is a pain, very expensive, and hard to find anybody. I've got Chrome and oxide wrenches. Believe it or not there's a difference in the sound they make. Nothing worse than full polish wrenches all scratched up. Always hated making a beautiful piece of steel and then having to paint it. Black oxide is as close to bare steel as you can get.

 

[BK13]

Sounds like a get lost to me.

No, I just looked at this thread when I had a moment, and thought I remember seeing something that might be a help. I didn’t really have time to fully research the answer. I’ll be sure to remember your user name and not waste any more of my time on a guy that feels the need to be rude when someone has a suggestion.


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[Interceptor]

I think a lot of people perceive chrome as being higher quality. It's certainly true that polishing and chrome costs more, but it does not necessarily make a better tool. Tools aren't jewelry, at least not for me. Most people use black oxide impact tools and rust isn't a problem.

I have a Williams ratchet in black. I'm not sure what the finish is but it doesn't seem to be a straight up black oxide. I think they just call it black industrial finish. It reminds me of a teflon frying pan surface, kinda rough but shiny. Not what I was expecting when I ordered it and I really don't like it.

 

[dutchgray]

I just looked in the Koken catalogue, they have thin wall black oxide sockets in metric in all 3 main drive sizes and some 12pt, 6pt surface drive and E torx. You would probably have to get them direct from japan I would think.
Catalogue download here
http://www.koken-tool.co.jp/en/support.html
Bottom of page.

 

[Dave455]

Thanks Dave455, my question seems to have fallen into a pocket of ignorance here. I had a metal working shop for 15 years and have slung more steel than you'd believe. I do not trust chrome. Stress it and it pops up to cut you. I use my tools for work not as jewelry. The only good reason I've heard for using chrome sockets for automotive is they are easier to find when you drop them. I am restoring also, black oxide gives you options. Re-chroming is a pain, very expensive, and hard to find anybody. I've got Chrome and oxide wrenches. Believe it or not there's a difference in the sound they make. Nothing worse than full polish wrenches all scratched up. Always hated making a beautiful piece of steel and then having to paint it. Black oxide is as close to bare steel as you can get.

I think I'm pretty much with you!

I love my chrome tools, but if I was using them hard, really hard, I think black oxide or unfinished would be a better bet.

Corrosion isn't really an issue with tools that are being used daily, and as I said, steel quality is more important anyway. I have 'blacked' Britool wrenches from the 50's, (more grey now) made of superb steel, that havn't worn much and don't pick up rust. I've also seen chrome tools made from crappy steel that have rusted under the chrome - and when it peels it's sharp!

I'm sorry to hear that re chroming is a problem where you are. I have 4 really good chromers within about a 40 minute drive. Most of 'em charge by weight, can handle all the prep (including stripping old chrome or de rusting) and do a superb job! I just had the handles chromed on a drill I was restoring and there was change from £10 ($15).

I know that in some industries (I think petrochemical tends to be one) black oxide tools are the norm. I know a guy who worked in that field a lot. Semi retired now, but an awesome wrench collection, some obviously very old, and hardly any chrome to be seen!

Also, in the general engineering world, the majority of the tools tend to be unchromed. Chrome pin wrenches are rare, for example, and I don't think I've ever seen a chrome C wrench!

Food for thought!

 

[Wamsutta]

The non impact industrial finish sockets will have a side lock hole for pin-lock extensions. Some guys hate that but it don't bother me. I'd rather have a side lock hole than have a detent in the wrong place like GW does.

 

[maico]

I just looked in the Koken catalogue, they have thin wall black oxide sockets in metric in all 3 main drive sizes and some 12pt, 6pt surface drive and E torx. You would probably have to get them direct from japan I would think.
Catalogue download here
http://www.koken-tool.co.jp/en/support.html
Bottom of page.

This UK dealer has a small industrial selection and a large amount of regular Koken

http://www.uktools.com/industrial-socketry-scm435-c-147_2933.html

I've got some Hazet Inox sockets no plating required !

 

[1982fxr]

Pocket of ignorance

 

[Tomzbox]

BK13 you and I are fine, OK. You gotta see how I took the "orange" as a jab. Anybody goes at me I come back 90% of the time. I'd expect anybody else to. OK I take it seriously maybe. The color has nothing to do with it. Black oxide is a conversion and stabilizing of the actual surface metal. Yes, I take it seriously. Please don't take offense.

 

[Tomzbox]

Dave455 you are very lucky to have re-chroming as an easy option. Very surprised it's not highly regulated there as it is here in US. Getting rid of the byproducts is a big problem here. Had a small sculpture I did chromed and had to travel 2 hours to get there. Weeks later picked it up and they skimped on material and prep. Cost was $250 US. Would have been better to leave it bare. Now I would use silver leaf instead. We have a great product here for rust called "Quick-Glo". If you've never used it or similar you'll be amazed. I suggest the fine version for black oxide. Many of the used oxide tools I buy online have been dipped in rust remover. It strips much of the black off. After all "oxide" is oxidation is rust. See Jay Leno's Garage on youtube for Quick-Glo.

 

[Tomzbox]

Interceptor there are so many different blacks now. Plus the original surface can be sand blasted to take a better coat. Cold or hot dip. "Black chrome"... it's a lot different. The newer SnapOn black ratchets look more to me like black chrome. I collect SnapOn industrial sockets within a 15 year stretch and I see lots of variation. But I also check out lots of used SnapOn chrome sockets. The thing that bothers me is how much lifting I see at the lips. Looks like lots of new types of power drivers are being used now, maybe that's what's doing the damage.

 

[Tomzbox]

Dutchgray and maico thanks a lot for the Koken tip. Never heard of them. I think Japanese tools like this are the most overlooked here. I like Vessel JIS "Jawsfit" screwdrivers especially. They really mean business at the tip where it matters. Work better on Phillips heads than Phillips screwdrivers. If you work on any old Japanese equipment they are a must. I glanced at the Koken site but as usual Japanese sites baffle me. The UK link should be very helpful. The thin wall metrics look like exactly what I've been looking for.

maico I see a Hazet Hinox socket? Are you saying they actually come raw? I asked SnapOn if they'd consider selling raw and they referred me to the product development dept. Haven't written that letter yet.

 

[neuralsnafu]

It may be because in the usa a lot of the industrial machines are sae (at least in my tiny amount of experience repairing a few press brakes and strippits)?

Maybe proto has some in metric?

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[dutchgray]

The Hazet INOX is stainless steel, its nice stuff and wont rust but it wont last as well as a standard tool steel would.

 

[matt_i]

I *think* have a few snapon metric black oxide, I am not sure if they are truly thin or just impacts and I can't see the difference....but I think they abandoned a lot of their industrial finish tools about 12-15 years ago.

I really like black oxide tools, have as many as I can, although some are impacts, but the ratchets do not seem to care

I got a spray bottle of LPS3 and wipe on a thin coat to help with corrosion. I also found these large dessicant packs, bentonite packs which came with a machine shipped from overseas and were headed straight for the dumpster. But, I recognized their usefulness and saved them from that fate Work quite well in support of the bk oxide. I need to "bake them out" again.

 

[Tomzbox]

This INOX is esoteric stuff here in the US. Can barely find anything on it. There's less available here than just a few years back. The German sellers on ebay are very helpful though. I took interest in Hazet because of the functional knurling on the sockets. The knurling on metric chrome sockets like SnapOn and Gearwrench is only for identification. Got sold on a set of Gearwrench metrics for the knurling but it's so close to the ratchet that you can't use it. The UK seems to have great variety of quality tools available. Many of the tools I land on on ebay are from UK sellers and I have to pass due to shipping.

 

[maico]

The Hazet INOX is stainless steel, its nice stuff and wont rust but it wont last as well as a standard tool steel would.

Hazet say Inox has:

"Up to 20% higher torque values in the range of HINOX® tools (static charge.)
Having the same hardness, high-grade stainless steel provides better mechanical strength properties than the standard material (31 CrV 3) with safer application / reduction of the risk of injury.

Serviceable life up to three times higher as measured in a continuous load test.

Weathering resistant outdoor use

Environmentally friendly fabrication: without surface coating.No allergic reactions due to chemical coatings."

Cadmium free.

Titanium is my favourite material but softer. Stainless steel sockets are expensive and titanium fearsomely expensive...

1/4" 14mm inox socket

 

[dutchgray]

If Inox was really that good compared to the usual tool steels, all the high end tool makers would offer a line, but they don't which tells me the corrosion resistance is the main reason stainless tools exist. I have 3 Hazet INOX items, 2 extensions and a sliding T bar, all 1/4" drive, they are very nice but I dont really need the corrosion resistance and a complete set isn't cheap.

 

[6PTsocket]

This UK dealer has a small industrial selection and a large amount of regular Koken

http://www.uktools.com/industrial-socketry-scm435-c-147_2933.html

I've got some Hazet Inox sockets no plating required !

The downside of inox, or stainless in the US, is that it is not as strong as the less rust resistant alloys normally used for tools. It is usually reserved for corrosive situations, like marine use.

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[Tomzbox]

Titanium is my favourite material but softer. Stainless steel sockets are expensive and titanium fearsomely expensive...

That's one fine looking socket. First company I've seen to put functional knurling on a socket down where your fingers want to be for spinning. I imagine everybody avoids it because stamping or rolling anywhere but at the square drive base where there's lots of metal will distort the socket. That leaves machining which adds cost. Haven't seen the cost for these yet ... I'm scared.

Titanium's great for watch bodies ... hypoallergenic and affordable at that scale.

 

[Tomzbox]

I got a spray bottle of LPS3 and wipe on a thin coat to help with corrosion. I also found these large dessicant packs, bentonite packs which came with a machine shipped from overseas and were headed straight for the dumpster. But, I recognized their usefulness and saved them from that fate Work quite well in support of the bk oxide. I need to "bake them out" again.

The LPS3 may be what I've been looking for. Something between wax and oil is what I want. Sounds a little like marine fogging oil. Hey I "bake" mine too. The sun gets real hot here in summer so I set my black oxide tools outside oiled up like little sunbathers. I call it seasoning.

 

[maico]

That's one fine looking socket. First company I've seen to put functional knurling on a socket down where your fingers want to be for spinning. I imagine everybody avoids it because stamping or rolling anywhere but at the square drive base where there's lots of metal will distort the socket. That leaves machining which adds cost. Haven't seen the cost for these yet ... I'm scared.

Titanium's great for watch bodies ... hypoallergenic and affordable at that scale.

6.4 euros ex. tax for that inox socket