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info on generators

dolfans

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I am thinking/wanting a generator to use if/when the power goes out. I would like info on what to look for and ask about. I want it to run most of or all of the house. I know that some are made and sell for something like $8000.00 plus but can not get that kind. I know i would have to get that plug that plugs into the breaker box and something like $800.00. Which ones better gas or diesel and are the diesel higher price? Have a Lowes,Ace and some hardware stores in town. Home Depot,Harbor Freight about 45 mins away and Northern Tool over hr away. Also in town have a Electrical parts type store.thanks
 
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king nero

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Do you have a local B&S or Honda dealership that sells those?
If you will need to rely on them, you better get a reputable brand.
And get some real-life info from a few different vendors.

Lots to tell about gensets.

Do you want them to switch on automatically when the power supply falls out?
What kind of power do you want? Lights and basic machines (phone, fax, battery chargers, ...) or do you want to keep freezer going (those can do with a day without power, if you don't open the door), do you want to be able to cook, to do the whole nine yards powered by this thing?
Stationary or on wheels? I don't know about USA power/breaker cabinets, but there are other ways to connect than by a special plug. If you can switch of from the power grid and you can live with a few minutes without power, there's no need for a $800 box.
You will need something that warns you when the power comes back on, though. But a small light could suffice.

If you want to run certain electronics from the genset, you might want to buy a stabilized output generator, or one with invertor-technology. Which is overkill for basic needs (lights and such), but those might kill your electronics.

I deal with gensets a lot (as a power supply for our weldors), and can probably tell you a whole lot about them. I suggest you go and harrass some vendors, get confused by their answers, then check back and ask for clarification.
 
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dogdog

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IMHO.

if you are not looking for portability... and willing to spend that much $ aka $8000 and you have gas services to the house. think you are better off with a whole house standby generators with an automatic transfer switch go with a name brand. best for situation of power outage but not natural disaster such as flood or earthquakes or you want to take it camping or into bed.

for portability, I think get the multi fuel ones. the LP/NG/Gasoline compatibility. Costco or sams sell one right now from champion $700. or get one of the other good brand Generac or something and buy a gas conversion kit. Hate to run to the gas station and stand on line for 5 gallon of gas that runs the generator for only 10 hours or 20 hours and have to go online again. usually those situation the lines are Long....to get gas.

Diesel is good if you have plenty of those fuel around. means you brew those biodiesel on your backyard or something.... type selection is basically the fuel you have close by.
 
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dolfans

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IMHO.

if you are not looking for portability... and willing to spend that much $ aka $8000 and you have gas services to the house. think you are better off with a whole house standby generators with an automatic transfer switch go with a name brand. best for situation of power outage but not natural disaster such as flood or earthquakes or you want to take it camping or into bed.

for portability, I think get the multi fuel ones. the LP/NG/Gasoline compatibility. Costco or sams sell one right now from champion $700. or get one of the other good brand Generac or something and buy a gas conversion kit. Hate to run to the gas station and stand on line for 5 gallon of gas that runs the generator for only 10 hours or 20 hours and have to go online again. usually those situation the lines are Long....to get gas.

Diesel is good if you have plenty of those fuel around. means you brew those biodiesel on your backyard or something.... type selection is basically the fuel you have close by.

I can not do no $8000.00. Wish and would love to do that
 

dogdog

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lolz selection is still the same, other than the wattage counts. Choice base on the fuel closer by you. Standby or portable and also what KingNero says..... do you needed to run sensitive electronics.... I know many of the cheaper generators (even it says 7000MegaWatt) won't charge many of the UPS power supplies or run Active PFC power supplies on the computers. you might needed special UPS that work with generators and Active PFC power supplies. something about these power factor correction power supplies for the higher end PCs. but that is just an example.... that makes me curious if my generator will power my Miller Dynasty 200DX.
 

king nero

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cheaper generators (even it says 7000MegaWatt)

Would love to see that, you don't happen to have a pic? That would make my office wall...

FYI, our (rather crude) fuel gensets power Miller XMT's and many other brands for years without damage whatsoever. And they get a rough life at that...
 

dogdog

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let me spray paint mine and get you a pic be back shortly :) :evil::lol_hitti
 
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dolfans

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I would want it to have power(stove,refrig,freezer and hvac and water).Only heat i have is the hvac and a fireplace. It is useless. Want to get a water stove or something like that also
 

p_mori7

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Montreal, QC., Canada
I have a 5000W (6250W surge) generator with a chinese honda-clone engine.

I bought it on sale at Home Depot for about $500.

I installed the Generator plug myself.

It powers all the 120V in house easily (1 Fridge, 2 small freezers, lights, TV, microwave, sump pump, lights, TV and the blower fan for my Propane stove).

It runs great, not too loud, and is well built.



The plug will run you about another $100, and the generator cable (depending on length) is anywhere from $100 ~ $200 approx.

I preferred gas because I always have some on hand, and is usually readily available.

Diesel genny's of the same capacity were easily 2x the price.
 
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LS6 Tommy

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I would want it to have power(stove,refrig,freezer and hvac and water).Only heat i have is the hvac and a fireplace. It is useless. Want to get a water stove or something like that also

Not to insult, but what the heck is a water stove??

Tommy
 
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Charles (in GA)

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Op will need to lower his expectations of what the generator can do for the money.

I have a Northern Tool North Star 6500 watt with a 10hp Yanmar diesel. It is a $3500 unit new. I got lucky and bought it from a co-worker for less than half of that. It was sill in the original wrapping, never had fuel or oil in it.

For your money, you will get a modest gasoline model, in the 6500-7000 watt range. You can use it to power a properly installed L14-30 power inlet fitting feeding a 30 amp breaker backfeeding the panel with a interlock to prevent accidental backfeeding of the power company. If you have a common brand of circuit breaker panel with a main breaker, this will be easy. If you have a main disconnect outside and a main lug panel inside, you may need to get a main breaker conversion kit for your panel to allow the interlock installation.

I went and bought a single burner butane cook burner from a local Asian grocery, and spare cylinders. I also bought a 20 inch Rival brand electric griddle (1500watt) for emergency use. I can have lights, I can cook, I can heat water, just not all at the same time. I also can keep the fridge running. In the winter, I can run a couple of electric space heaters if needed to keep warm (total electric house).

THIS is my thread on generator inlets and interlocks.

Charles
 
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nu2me

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The first thing you need to do is figure out how much current your loads will draw. HVAC/heat pump (some have built-in resistance heaters), stove and water heater, plus well pump (if any) are the big ones. In all likelihood, you may already be beyond the $800 figure. Then, there are the 120-v fridge and lighting, electronics, etc. These have to be balanced to both legs, particularly important if it's running toward capacity on the basics, and it may be necessary to have a Load Warden on premises at all times. Generators are much(!) less forgiving than pole-top transformers, and gennies designed to meet consumer-grade price points are less forgiving than contractor-grade machines, particularly in regard to overloads. Decide your priorities and be prepared to make adjustments. You may wind up camping out in emergencies, holing up in one room with a window unit, hotplate, and a small TV. As some have already mentioned, electronics and generators (particularly the less-expensive ones that don't have very sophisticated regulation) may not get along.

All those major loads can't be run off dropcords, so pay particular attention to Charles' advice about hooking the gennie into your panel. You also have to find a dry location that isn't going to be a fire hazard, with free air movement for cooling and dissipating spills and fumes of refueling, and a way to keep the exhaust away from the house. You'll have to decide how much noise is objectionable to you and avoid too many complaints from the nabes. Cheap generators have lawn mower-sized mufflers, better ones for genset-duty have phone book-sized mufflers. And generator noise in an outage can also attract five-fingered attention, so you need to think about security.

Since diesel and NG seem to be out of the question here, make sure the engine has overhead valves, a cast-iron cylinder liner, and a low-oil kill-switch -- it may use more oil than you think, especially under load. B&S, Honda, Fuji-Robin, and Yamaha all make decent engines and have parts available for them (that all too often have to be ordered in). Parts and service for (and knowledge about) the business-end may be pretty scarce should you need them. With consumer-grade gensets and clones, you may have to replace the whole unit -- if available at all.

Bear in mind that today's gasoline doesn't store well, at all -- so the tank and carb have to be drained after use, and every six months, that red can has to be dumped in the car's tank before refilling it.

Gennies often seem to be "a good idea at the time." After they sit unused in the corner of the garage for four years, or the owner pitches a fit every time he goes to use it because he didn't drain the gas the last time, one of the nabes buys it or it goes on C-list. So it looks like you'll need to do some homework if you're truly interested.
 

TheEquineFencer

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Farmville, NC 27828
The first thing you need to do is figure out how much current your loads will draw. HVAC/heat pump (some have built-in resistance heaters), stove and water heater, plus well pump (if any) are the big ones. In all likelihood, you may already be beyond the $800 figure. Then, there are the 120-v fridge and lighting, electronics, etc. These have to be balanced to both legs, particularly important if it's running toward capacity on the basics, and it may be necessary to have a Load Warden on premises at all times. Generators are much(!) less forgiving than pole-top transformers, and gennies designed to meet consumer-grade price points are less forgiving than contractor-grade machines, particularly in regard to overloads. Decide your priorities and be prepared to make adjustments. You may wind up camping out in emergencies, holing up in one room with a window unit, hotplate, and a small TV. As some have already mentioned, electronics and generators (particularly the less-expensive ones that don't have very sophisticated regulation) may not get along.

All those major loads can't be run off dropcords, so pay particular attention to Charles' advice about hooking the gennie into your panel. You also have to find a dry location that isn't going to be a fire hazard, with free air movement for cooling and dissipating spills and fumes of refueling, and a way to keep the exhaust away from the house. You'll have to decide how much noise is objectionable to you and avoid too many complaints from the nabes. Cheap generators have lawn mower-sized mufflers, better ones for genset-duty have phone book-sized mufflers. And generator noise in an outage can also attract five-fingered attention, so you need to think about security.

Since diesel and NG seem to be out of the question here, make sure the engine has overhead valves, a cast-iron cylinder liner, and a low-oil kill-switch -- it may use more oil than you think, especially under load. B&S, Honda, Fuji-Robin, and Yamaha all make decent engines and have parts available for them (that all too often have to be ordered in). Parts and service for (and knowledge about) the business-end may be pretty scarce should you need them. With consumer-grade gensets and clones, you may have to replace the whole unit -- if available at all.

Bear in mind that today's gasoline doesn't store well, at all -- so the tank and carb have to be drained after use, and every six months, that red can has to be dumped in the car's tank before refilling it.

Gennies often seem to be "a good idea at the time." After they sit unused in the corner of the garage for four years, or the owner pitches a fit every time he goes to use it because he didn't drain the gas the last time, one of the nabes buys it or it goes on C-list. So it looks like you'll need to do some homework if you're truly interested.

Good post. Also check that when running with the load the voltage AND Hz are within the proper range. Running an electric motor under frequency will make it heat up over time and let the magic smoke out. Running a lot of motor loads on a generator rated for a 1.0(PF) Power factor will also cook a generator end over time and never open the beaker on it. Motor loads are at .8 PF or less depending on the motors. I'm sure this will be over some of your heads, but Generator folks know what I'm talking about.
 

dirtybiker

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Nov 11, 2013
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WI
I have a military Gen unit that I bought cheep on eBay locally. Under 500. It's rated at 5k But being military they are underrated and could handle about 8k. My unit needs a slight mod to be able to power 220 and 110 and the same time. It does not have a neutral at 220. I have a few options to do that just need to get around to do it. Two things with my unit is it's very noisy and its heavy I have casters on mine buts still takes some effort to move. I don't mind it being heavy no one is going to walk away with it. These generators are also made to run none stop will keep running long after box store generators die.

On a side note it also has 3 phase if you have any 3p equipment.
 

Falcon67

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Merkel, TX
For your $800 budget you get a 5000w to 6500w pull start off brand genset and some extension cords. That's about it. We have about $500 in a 3500w Champion we use at the track. Should we lose power I can run what we need. No enviornmentals except window ac. You want to add whole house, add x6 to x10 your budget. Honda, etc in that 5kw range is $3000+. Why ours was $299. Good enough.
 
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Highbeam

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I too have a champion 4000watt/3500 watt continuous. It's a honda clone and I paid about 250$ for it several years ago. It's much quieter than most open frame genies and it will run over 12 hours on the 5 gallon fuel tank. I can pick it up and set it in my truck so it's not too heavy. Okay so say 300$ for this. Low oil shutoff, big muffler, overhead valves, very good (but not perfect) sine wave output, solid frequency, and decent voltage regulation, but the biggy is that it puts out the 3500 watts at 240 volts or 120.

I replaced my old panel with a nice Siemens that included an interlock but the kit to modify your panel with an interlock tab is about 150$. Then you run a generator circuit to the outside and a male inlet plug. Buy a cord from home depot that runs from the genny to the inlet plug. All of the above for under 300$.

Now your whole house is energized. You will want to shut off big automatic loads like an electric water heater by flipping those breakers off. You walk into a bathroom and flip the light switch and it works.

I run computers, LCD TV, lights, fridgess, electric range burners, microwave, etc. without a problem.

600$
 

TheEquineFencer

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Farmville, NC 27828
I have a military Gen unit that I bought cheep on eBay locally. Under 500. It's rated at 5k But being military they are underrated and could handle about 8k. My unit needs a slight mod to be able to power 220 and 110 and the same time. It does not have a neutral at 220. I have a few options to do that just need to get around to do it. Two things with my unit is it's very noisy and its heavy I have casters on mine buts still takes some effort to move. I don't mind it being heavy no one is going to walk away with it. These generators are also made to run none stop will keep running long after box store generators die.

On a side note it also has 3 phase if you have any 3p equipment.

From what a buddy of mine has told me MIL spec stuff, generators included are built to run at a 50% overload for a while before they die. When I was working for local government, we had a 50T all terrain forklift, it picked up that and then some when needed.
 

thecj3man

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East TN
Do you have a local B&S or Honda dealership that sells those?
If you will need to rely on them, you better get a reputable brand.

I bought my Honda generator from the local Honda motorcycle shop. They beat the local Northern Tool by several hundred dollars before tax. Plus, I know where to get parts or service should I ever need them.
 

Falcon67

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Merkel, TX
>Okay so say 300$ for this.
$329.99 all day at TSC. $299 on sale, once in a while
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/champion-power-equipmenttrade;-3500w-4000w-portable-generator

Have not been able to get 3.8 gallons in the tank yet, maybe 2.5. Not sure where the other gallon would go. I add two gallons at the track after 6 hours, AC unit on the trailer pulls 17A @120V on high cool. I keep an eye on it and don't want to let it run out of fuel under load. I remove all loads before shutdown for fueling.

And it's not 68dB, more like 75dB @ 20'. Quieter than most other gens running at the track, especially the 6500w open frame units. Not super nice like a Honda EU3000. But then it didn't cost like one either.
 

Charles (in GA)

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50 mi south of Atlanta
I replaced my old panel with a nice Siemens that included an interlock but the kit to modify your panel with an interlock tab is about 150$. Then you run a generator circuit to the outside and a male inlet plug. Buy a cord from home depot that runs from the genny to the inlet plug. All of the above for under 300$.

Indeed, the third party certified interlocks from http://www.interlockkit.com/ and others are generally exactly $150. If you have a common brand panel, you will find that the MFG has several different part numbers to cover their different panels. Do a little research and then go to Ebay and you will find one for less than $100, possibly way less.

THIS Square D interlock for instance fits a large segment of the QO and Homeline panels used in homes, so long as they have a main breaker.

HERE is all of the various interlocks Siemens makes for their panels. New or old, you will find one to fit most likely. I ended up using one of these for an obsolete General Switch panel which uses the same type of 1" wide blade stab breakers.

For GE meter socket load centers I used this one on a water well panel. GE takes a little more sleuthing to find the part numbers, but they are out there.

Eaton Cutler-Hammer BR series panels have a interlock also. Page 10 of this catalog also gives you a little info on CH and BR panel interlocks from Eaton.

Much cheaper than the third part interlocks if you can avoid them.

Charles
 
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