Inspect my subpanel

[Hoops.]

Main panel has 90 amp breaker fed through 2224 aluminum in conduit panel to panel. 90 feet away is the subpanel shown below. Subpanel is grounded by two 5/8" dia rods 6 feet apart. How do they look? 90 amp breaker is left bottom in the main panel.

 

[p_mori7]

I think you need to tie your neutrals together in the subpanel ?

(Not an electrician, so I am not speaking as an authority here).

 

[Mustang51js]

I think you need to tie your neutrals together in the subpanel ?

(Not an electrician, so I am not speaking as an authority here).

One side is ground and other side is neutral,so he's ok there. Everything looks good except for the wire that continues through the sub panel. Not a big deal but your not supposed to use a panel as a feed through.

 

[Hoops.]

I think you need to tie your neutrals together in the subpanel ?

(Not an electrician, so I am not speaking as an authority here).

I forgot to mention this is a detached garage, so I did not tie the neutral and ground together.

 

[Hoops.]

One side is ground and other side is neutral,so he's ok there. Everything looks good except for the wire that continues through the sub panel. Not a big deal but your not supposed to use a panel as a feed through.

I wasn't sure how to deal with that wire. It's a 3 way switch wire (14-3 UF) that I will control the outside lights in the detached garage, from my attached garage. Since I have MHF 2224 in conduit from panel to panel, I was forced to use the panels as a pass through.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I forgot to mention this is a detached garage, so I did not tie the neutral and ground together.

Even if this was a sub panel in your house, the neutral and ground bars shouldnt be tied together. The ONLY place neutral and ground bars are tied together are in the main service panel!

 

[C96]

I wasn't sure how to deal with that wire. It's a 3 way switch wire (14-3 UF) that I will control the outside lights in the detached garage, from my attached garage. Since I have MHF 2224 in conduit from panel to panel, I was forced to use the panels as a pass through.

You were not forced, but simply took the easy way. If this is up for inspection by your local jurisdiction the inspector will fail you for this (it’s a code thing). As Mustang51js stated, the panel is not to be used as a raceway. A pull box would have solved this allowing you to enter and exit that conduit at each location. Of course the best way is another conduit.

 

[Hoops.]

You were not forced, but simply took the easy way. If this is up for inspection by your local jurisdiction the inspector will fail you for this (it’s a code thing). As Mustang51js stated, the panel is not to be used as a raceway. A pull box would have solved this allowing you to enter and exit that conduit at each location. Of course the best way is another conduit.

Would it not pass if I placed a label on the panel indicating where to disconnect? Thanks for the help!!

312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with

Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors.
The wiring
space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
devices where all of the following conditions are met:
(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of that space.
(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.
(3) A warning label is applied to the enclosure that identifies
the closest disconnecting means for any feedthrough
conductors.

Another example:
http://ecmweb.com/content/code-quandaries-39

 

[Zeke]

Is that the same wire going over the upper right face of the main panel?

 

[pattenp]

You're okay with the switch wire passing through the sub-panel, but the power for the light that the switch operates must originate from the sub-panel. In other words the UF wire you ran in the conduit along with the MHF should not be feeding power directly from the house, it should be just a switch loop with the power source at the garage. So the disconnect for that wire should be in the sub-panel.

Would it not pass if I placed a label on the panel indicating where to disconnect? Thanks for the help!!

312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device Enclosures with

Splices, Taps, and Feed-Through Conductors.
The wiring
space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices
shall be permitted for conductors feeding through, spliced,
or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
devices where all of the following conditions are met:
(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of that space.
(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.
(3) A warning label is applied to the enclosure that identifies
the closest disconnecting means for any feedthrough
conductors.

Another example:
http://ecmweb.com/content/code-quandaries-39

 

[LS6 Tommy]

IDK if it's a violation or not, but I've never seen Neutral & Ground wires mixed on the Neutral & Ground buss bars like in your main panel, even if they're bonded.

Tommy

 

[Mustang51js]

IDK if it's a violation or not, but I've never seen Neutral & Ground wires mixed on the Neutral & Ground buss bars like in your main panel, even if they're bonded.

Tommy

Come to nj, 99% of the panels are like that!which ***** for me when I do whole house generators and have to separate everything. At least the new panels come with a decent size ground bar off to the now since you need to run separate circuits more and more

 

[Hoops.]

You're okay with the switch wire passing through the sub-panel, but the power for the light that the switch operates must originate from the sub-panel. In other words the UF wire you ran in the conduit along with the MHF should not be feeding power directly from the house, it should be just a switch loop with the power source at the garage. So the disconnect for that wire should be in the sub-panel.

Thanks pattenp! Very helpful information and that is my plan. Power for that 14-3 wire will be fed from the subpanel.

 

[Hoops.]

IDK if it's a violation or not, but I've never seen Neutral & Ground wires mixed on the Neutral & Ground buss bars like in your main panel, even if they're bonded.

Tommy

I'm guessing that's the norm in this area as well? House was built in 2007 so it must not be in violation?

 

[kenfath]

In Photo #2 of the subpanel, shouldn't the green screw visible in the lower left be removed?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

In Photo #2 of the subpanel, shouldn't the green screw visible in the lower left be removed?

No, it is necessary in the ground bar to bond the metal cabinet to the ground bar. If it were installed in the neutral bar on the RH side, you would be right that it should be removed, but where it is in the ground bar, it is needed there.

Charles

 

[statictree83]

I'm new here and was wondering which thread or to start one. I have questions about installing a new 5000 watt 220v heater in my detached garage. I have a 100amp service to the garage feed from a 200amp main service in the house. The garage box is on a 50amp breaker

 

[Bmwsyc]

Bushing on the feeder conduit?

 

[soob]

You're okay with the switch wire passing through the sub-panel, but the power for the light that the switch operates must originate from the sub-panel. In other words the UF wire you ran in the conduit along with the MHF should not be feeding power directly from the house, it should be just a switch loop with the power source at the garage. So the disconnect for that wire should be in the sub-panel.

In the specific case of running the feeders for one subpanel through another subpanel (not feeding the second sub from the first, just passing through) is that okay? Lots of people on the internet seem to say it is.

I want to do this not because I'm lazy but for neatness and also because I would have to move the first subpanel if I can't.

 

[pattenp]

In the specific case of running the feeders for one subpanel through another subpanel (not feeding the second sub from the first, just passing through) is that okay? Lots of people on the internet seem to say it is.

I want to do this not because I'm lazy but for neatness and also because I would have to move the first subpanel if I can't.

Yes you can but a warning label needs to be applied to the cabinet identifying the disconnect location of those conductors. NEC 312.8. There are also fill requirements you have to meet.
Read this....
http://ecmweb.com/content/code-quandaries-39

*

 

[soob]

Yes you can but a warning label needs to be applied to the cabinet identifying the disconnect location of those conductors. NEC 312.8. There are also fill requirements you have to meet.
Read this....
http://ecmweb.com/content/code-quandaries-39

*

Thanks!

If you don't mind answering one more question since I'm a newbie--I am going to run THHN so it has to be in conduit in the wall up to the panel, right? I am using 2" PVC so the pipes are very big and I'm not quite sure how to make the transition through the (brick veeneer) wall 90 degrees up to the bottom feed on the panel. This would eventually be in a finished wall. Obviously I could put the conduit body high up on the outside wall but that's not attractive. Or I could but another one in the wall but that can't be enclosed (right?) or I could put a box with a cover on it but that wouldn't be attractive either. Should I just buy a short piece of something like 3/3 romex (if there is such a thing) and wire nut it to the thhn in that outside conduit body?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm new here and was wondering which thread or to start one. I have questions about installing a new 5000 watt 220v heater in my detached garage. I have a 100amp service to the garage feed from a 200amp main service in the house. The garage box is on a 50amp breaker

Start a new thread so u dont high jack this one and your topic is different!

Thanks!

If you don't mind answering one more question since I'm a newbie--I am going to run THHN so it has to be in conduit in the wall up to the panel, right? I am using 2" PVC so the pipes are very big and I'm not quite sure how to make the transition through the (brick veeneer) wall 90 degrees up to the bottom feed on the panel. This would eventually be in a finished wall. Obviously I could put the conduit body high up on the outside wall but that's not attractive. Or I could but another one in the wall but that can't be enclosed (right?) or I could put a box with a cover on it but that wouldn't be attractive either. Should I just buy a short piece of something like 3/3 romex (if there is such a thing) and wire nut it to the thhn in that outside conduit body?

Any conduit body needs to be accesable. Yes loose wire(no outer jacket) needs to be in conduit. No such thing as 3/3 NM/Romex. What u could get is SER which does have an outer jacket...

 

[soob]

Any conduit body needs to be accesable. Yes loose wire(no outer jacket) needs to be in conduit. No such thing as 3/3 NM/Romex. What u could get is SER which does have an outer jacket...

But the SER can't go underground so I'd have to have a block or something in the conduit body to switch over, right?

If I just wanted to do the conduit is there a way to get that 90 degree upward bend from the conduit body outside to the panel up inside the wall (without leaving a hole in the inside wall)? A regular 90 degree pvc elbow won't fit.

 

[pattenp]

But the SER can't go underground so I'd have to have a block or something in the conduit body to switch over, right?

If I just wanted to do the conduit is there a way to get that 90 degree upward bend from the conduit body outside to the panel up inside the wall (without leaving a hole in the inside wall)? A regular 90 degree pvc elbow won't fit.

You can't bury a conduit body in the wall and you most likely can't use the conduit body for splicing because it's not big enough to meet fill requirements.

You can bring your conduit up to a large PVC junction box on the outside of the house and splice in SER for the run into your house up to the panel. The SER can be installed just as NM (Romex) wire is installed.

Kinda like this....

 

[soob]

I thought about it some more and that sounds like way more trouble than it's worth. I am going to do a change of plans--

Direct bury MHF 2-2-2-4 aluminum. 1.5" conduit outside and inside the wall cavity. Get that right angle with an LB conduit body in the wall cavity with an access panel over it instead of drywall. No splices. That sound okay? It'll be way easier to navigate direct burial cable around the existing landscaping, sidewalks, wiring, phone box, oddly placed wall studs, etc.

Thanks again for your help pattonp and wyliesdiesels.

 

[soob]

This may be a stupid question, but I am putting a subpanel right next to my main (to side-step the 6-bar limit without a main disconnect). I'll be moving two thirty-amp circuits into the sub which is going to be adjoining the main panel.

My question is -- I am going to ground the new panel obviously, but do I have to move the grounds for the two thirty amp circuits into the subpanel or can I leave them in the main panel? I'd probably have to splice them and that seems like a waste of wire and space in the panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes, the grounds should be moved over to the panel with the breaker for the circuit. When u say main, do u mean the main service panel or the main subpanel?

 

[soob]

Thanks again.

It's the main service panel.