Installing 220 in garage for future welder - questions!

[wguttrid]

Hi Guys,

Need some expertise on how to go about installing a 220V outlet in the garage to run a Lincoln 225/125 welder I am thinking of buying. Also as the garage currently only has one plug for the garage door opener I would like to have room to add two more 110v plugs and another 220/240v for an air compressor down the road.

The main service panel is in the basement and the garage is on the other side of a 1950 ranch style house. I am still planning just how I am going to run the wire (e.g up throu wall and into attic and into garage, out basement wall and run conduit to garage following eaves). I am still working on this but I am comfortable runing/fishing the wire once I figure out the run. I will be hiring an electrican for the hook-ups but before I contact an electrician I want to understand the different options.

I have taken a picture of the meter outside the house, which looks like 200a service.

I have also taken pictures of the service panel downstairs, it is an older federal pacific panel. The sticker mentions "Mains 100amp max". The main on/off switch states 100A so I guessing this is a 100a service panel.

Now I am looking at the most economical way of getting power to the garage for the welder and also enough headroom to put in other plugs in the garage. The wife and I are only planning on staying here for about five years so don't want to throw alot of money at it but at the same time for the next five years want to have a garage where I can work on stuff.

Please note I have limited electrical experince and I would only run the wires to help save some money, the electrcian would do the hook ups and rest of the install just afriad if I call someone right now they are going to quote somehting extremely high if I don't research it.

So guys what would everyone suggest I do???? Here are my ideas to toss around but not sure if feasible or not!
1.) Install a seperate 100A panel after the main meter. Thou not sure on what would be needed to do this.
2.) Install a sub-panel from the main service panel either in the garage or near the main panel. Not sure what size sub-panel can be pulled from the current main panel.
3.) Rip out the current 100a panel and have installed a 200 amp panel. But do I still need some sort sub-panel in the garage so I only need to fish one run of wires to the garage and distribute from the sub panel.

In a nutshell looking for the cheapest route but still haev capabilities of adding other things easily in the garage down the road as I need them.

Thanks for all the help guys, look forward to everyones idea.

 

[Gunnert]

I'd start with putting a sub-panel in the garage and running it off the main panel. From the sub-panel you can run the outlets that you need in the garage.

 

[Markromeo]

I was advised (required actually) by my homeowners insurance company to replace my Federal Pacific Stab-lock breaker box. Do some research on them, and I believe you would agree. So I guess my advice would involve upgrading your main to 200A and adding a sub-panel to the garage.

Sorry this is only my 2nd post, but saw that box and figured I'd give my experience with it.

 

[wguttrid]

I'd start with putting a sub-panel in the garage and running it off the main panel. From the sub-panel you can run the outlets that you need in the garage.

What size of sub-panel would you recoemend or what do you think my main panel can handle? Do I need to do some sort of load calculation - the hosue is gas furnance and gas hot water tank so the only big loads are electric oven and a.c and washer/dryer.

 

[wguttrid]

I was advised (required actually) by my homeowners insurance company to replace my Federal Pacific Stab-lock breaker box. Do some research on them, and I believe you would agree. So I guess my advice would involve upgrading your main to 200A and adding a sub-panel to the garage.

Sorry this is only my 2nd post, but saw that box and figured I'd give my experience with it.

Just read up on the federal panels and yes does not sound too reliable.

 

[brewchief]

I would also get rid of that Federal Pacific panel and replace with a new 200 amp panel, looks like riser and meter can will need to be upgraded as well.


A 60 amp subpanel should be enough if you won't be welding while running the air compressor, a 100 amp sub will give you more spaces and can be fed with smaller wire and breakered at 60 amps to save some cash on wire and still give plenty of spaces for future use.

 

[wguttrid]

I would also get rid of that Federal Pacific panel and replace with a new 200 amp panel, looks like riser and meter can will need to be upgraded as well.


A 60 amp subpanel should be enough if you won't be welding while running the air compressor, a 100 amp sub will give you more spaces and can be fed with smaller wire and breakered at 60 amps to save some cash on wire and still give plenty of spaces for future use.

Just curious so I understand and eduacate myself why do you think the meter can and riser would need to be upgraded?

What do you think would be rough cost to replace Federal with 200a main panel and 100amp subpanel wired for 60amps. Quick guestimate? Basement to garage will be about 50-75 feet of wire.

 

[brewchief]

Just curious so I understand and eduacate myself why do you think the meter can and riser would need to be upgraded?

What do you think would be rough cost to replace Federal with 200a main panel and 100amp subpanel wired for 60amps. Quick guestimate? Basement to garage will be about 50-75 feet of wire.

Meter can is barely big enough for the meter, fitting the larger wire needed for a 200 amp service isn't going to happen, there may be a 200 amp meter in there as that may be the smallest size the power provider uses.

I'm an HVAC guy so I can't provide much in the way of pricing, a couple of years ago one of our customers needed a service upgrade to add A/C, similar situation, was around 2k without a sub panel. Pricing in your area will vary so the only way to know for sure is to call and get a couple estimates.

 

[wguttrid]

Meter can is barely big enough for the meter, fitting the larger wire needed for a 200 amp service isn't going to happen, there may be a 200 amp meter in there as that may be the smallest size the power provider uses.

I'm an HVAC guy so I can't provide much in the way of pricing, a couple of years ago one of our customers needed a service upgrade to add A/C, similar situation, was around 2k without a sub panel. Pricing in your area will vary so the only way to know for sure is to call and get a couple estimates.

Thanks for the clarification on the meter can. Looks like to do this is not going to be cheap.

 

[Norcal]

Is the OP in Canada? I ask because of the configuration of the panel. If not FPE breakers are expensive, but if yes Federal-Pioneer will be not as bad & does not have the bad reputation that FPE has in the US.

FPE breakers made now, are to the best of my knowledge, ChiCom knockoffs, like Zinsco/Sylvania also, 2 of the most reviled names in electrical equipment.

 

[wguttrid]

Is the OP in Canada? I ask because of the configuration of the panel. If not FPE breakers are expensive, but if yes Federal-Pioneer will be not as bad & does not have the bad reputation that FPE has in the US.

FPE breakers made now, are to the best of my knowledge, ChiCom knockoffs, like Zinsco/Sylvania also, 2 of the most reviled names in electrical equipment.

Yes I am in Canada.

You mention about the configuration of the panel, is there somehting good or bad about it and that I am in Canada? Do you think I should just haev an electrican take a look at it and see if I can keep it.

And if I can keep the main FPE I currently have, and as another poster mentioned if I need to change the meter can / socket to hook into a new 200a panel (replacing the FPE), could I not instead just get a double lug meter can / socket and have wired in a seperate 100a panel right next to the FPE?

 

[LShee778]

I just re-wired a house this weekend and did a 200A service panel upgrade. You should REALLY think about replacing that 100A box with a 200A panel and adding a subpanel for the garage. I know my Magnetrip box was actually deemed illegal so I was forced to do the upgrade. Your Federal box may be in the same boat.

 

[Larwyn]

I just recently had the service to my house upgraded from 125 amp to 200 amp. The power company provided the new meter can (no cost to me). I called three different electricians before one actually answered the phone, he got the job, I was not looking to hire an answering service. It ended up being less expensive than I expected at around $1800 and that included all parts and labor plus running a new 60 amp service out to the shed (about 80 feet away) and the permit fee. Of course, based on some of what I have been told here, I hired a *****... Actually I think he did a decent job.

 

[wguttrid]

I just re-wired a house this weekend and did a 200A service panel upgrade. You should REALLY think about replacing that 100A box with a 200A panel and adding a subpanel for the garage. I know my Magnetrip box was actually deemed illegal so I was forced to do the upgrade. Your Federal box may be in the same boat.

I just recently had the service to my house upgraded from 125 amp to 200 amp. The power company provided the new meter can (no cost to me). I called three different electricians before one actually answered the phone, he got the job, I was not looking to hire an answering service. It ended up being less expensive than I expected at around $1800 and that included all parts and labor plus running a new 60 amp service out to the shed (about 80 feet away) and the permit fee. Of course, based on some of what I have been told here, I hired a *****... Actually I think he did a decent job.

I am leaning towards being on the safe side and having the FPE swapped out for a 200a panel and then running a 100a subpanel in the garage. Is little bit more then I planned on spending as we don't plan on being here any longer then 5 years but I guess would make it back when we go to sell the house down the road.

Now I am curious as I did a little bit of research today and read a couple times on other forums that i could upgrade the meter base to a 325a double lug meter, which means you can run to panels seperatly. So going with this idea:
1.Would need to buy a 325a double lug meter socket. Not sure if hydro company would pay for this or I will.
Option A- Have installed one of those small cheap 100amp panels ($50-100)right next to my current panel in the basement that only has a few spots for breakers (kind of like a hot tub panel) and from this panel I could install another small 100a sub-panel ($50-100) in the shop.
Option B- Not sure if there is a such thing but instal next to the current basement federal panel one of those old school 100amp fuse breakers/disconnects/on-off switch (not sure what terminolgy to use) and from this put in a small 100amp subpanel in the garage

Not sure how much a 325a double lug meter socket will cost - guessing $200-300.

On a sidenote: I am hoping I can hire my brothers friend who just became an electrican and has been doing side jobs. He did a complete kitchen open concept living room re-wire job for my brother in law for 400 bucks just hoping I can talk him into the drive thou.

 

[wguttrid]

Curios what do people think of the options above

 

[Lightning rod]

Can't speak to the FPE panel issue , but I added a 60a 240v breaker to my panel which is 100a service to a 60a 120/240v sub panel to my garage

I think it was $40 for the 60 a main panel breaker,$50 for the sub panel

And $150 for 50 feet of 10/3. And what ever combo of 120/240 breakers you want to use.

Something like that. It was 10 years ago.

I run a Lincoln 180 a welder, compressor, table saw etc.
Just not all at the same time

The sub panel in the garage lets me control all the important loads
From the garage. Has worked great for me. eH ?
I'm in the Toronto area, if I can help

 

[Wibb]

FPE boxes are usually not covered under homeowners policies. I would evaluate your loads and decide if a 100 amp panel can meet your needs. You can still have a sub panel and only have a 100 amp main breaker. It really depends on what kind of loads you are serving. If you have electric heat and water you should definitely have a 200 amp service though.

 

[wguttrid]

Can't speak to the FPE panel issue , but I added a 60a 240v breaker to my panel which is 100a service to a 60a 120/240v sub panel to my garage

I think it was $40 for the 60 a main panel breaker,$50 for the sub panel

And $150 for 50 feet of 10/3. And what ever combo of 120/240 breakers you want to use.

Something like that. It was 10 years ago.

I run a Lincoln 180 a welder, compressor, table saw etc.
Just not all at the same time

The sub panel in the garage lets me control all the important loads
From the garage. Has worked great for me. eH ?
I'm in the Toronto area, if I can help

Sounds good about the 60a sub panel. Curious what loads are you pulling from the main panel- I have gas water heater and furnace so really only big items are the electric oven, ac unit in the summer, and dryer. House is a 1300 square foot ranch.

And do you know if I was to buy electrical supplies at Home Depot in the USA as I am in Windsor if I could use these in Canada?

 

[wguttrid]

FPE boxes are usually not covered under homeowners policies. I would evaluate your loads and decide if a 100 amp panel can meet your needs. You can still have a sub panel and only have a 100 amp main breaker. It really depends on what kind of loads you are serving. If you have electric heat and water you should definitely have a 200 amp service though.

Was reading online that possibly the Canadian made federal panels were ok not sure how true this is.

Think I will read up on doing a load demand study and making and excel matrix detailing the loads currently in the house.

 

[Lightning rod]

Sounds good about the 60a sub panel. Curious what loads are you pulling from the main panel- I have gas water heater and furnace so really only big items are the electric oven, ac unit in the summer, and dryer. House is a 1300 square foot ranch.

And do you know if I was to buy electrical supplies at Home Depot in the USA as I am in Windsor if I could use these in Canada?

I have the same as you as far as electrical loads in the house.
Probably only pulling 20a max at any given moment from the garage panel
I'm pretty sure that all the home DIY stuff sold at HD has got both the UL and CSA ratings now. As long as the UL rating is there, it should be fine to use in Canada at 120/240 v

The issues start when using 600v stuff and above in factories and such.

 

[wguttrid]

I have the same as you as far as electrical loads in the house.
Probably only pulling 20a max at any given moment from the garage panel
I'm pretty sure that all the home DIY stuff sold at HD has got both the UL and CSA ratings now. As long as the UL rating is there, it should be fine to use in Canada at 120/240 v

The issues start when using 600v stuff and above in factories and such.

Hi and thanks for the information. For your Lincoln 180 what breaker size are using for it? 50a?

So many different ways to go about doing this both from a cost prespective as we don't plan on staying here that long and also safety perspective.

 

[Lightning rod]

I have a 30 a brkr installed

I know lots of choices. Good luck