Installing a 240v outlet for possible welder/heater

[frankd]

I'm in the middle or renovating my attached garage and I'd like to add a 240v outlet for an electric heater and possibly a welder (most likely a mig welder) down the road. I don't current own a welder but it's on the wish list.
I was planning on using a 50A breaker with 6 gauge wire and using that to run a dedicated 240v outlet for a electric heater/fan combo which would work off a 4 prong 240v outlet. I've read that many welders have 3 prong outlets. Of course I don't plan on running both the heater and welder at the same time on same outlet.
So here is are my questions. Are most newer mig welders 3 or 4 prong? Is it easy to convert from 3 to 4 prong if need be? And would a 50A breaker and 6 gauge wire be sufficient for most light/medium duty use welders. I'm not looking to weld 1" steel. I would imagine that 1/4" or so would be as thick as I'd go.
Thanks!

 

[sberry]

The welder uses 3,,, and they are designed to run on circuits to 50,,, doesn't mean they need it. Modern mig and inverters now are 30 in actual draw. The issue here is the heater. It may require current limiting depending on size. If its limited to 30 should not be on a 50, you really need to spec heaters here first.
Personally, since you are wiring would run the a circuit for the welder and one for the heater. While some of it can be shared its really kind of jackleg to do that, I would want circuits dedicated specifically for this type of equipment. You could use 10 for welders. For some,,, most except for big wire feeders it may be sufficient with a 50 breaker,,, and even some of those under specific conditions. 5K watt heater uses 10/30, a 210 class mig requires that too as do the new stick inverters. (technically as little as 14/30) but no one thinks the tiny wire is actually a great idea and the recepts are not listed for a wire that small.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Almost every 240V welder I've worked with had a 3 prong, 6-50P for the plug. Two hots and a ground, no neutral. Typically a 240V heater would be two hots and a ground, but you mentioned heater/fan combo so I believe the fan would run on 120V, requiring the neutral and a 4-prong plug.

Seeing that you're in NY, I would consider separate circuits for the heater and welder, unless you don't weld at all over the winter. A welder-only circuit can use smaller wire based on the welder's duty cycle. Of course, that depends entirely on the welder you buy. Most affordable home MIG welders are probably in the 20-40% duty cycle range. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I pretty much only TIG weld, and my 200A TIG welder has a 60% duty cycle and only requires a 30 amp circuit. I would imagine most MIG's you'd be looking at would require a 30 amp circuit as well.

The heater is considered a continuous load and the wire must be sized for the current draw of the heater, no undersizing of wire. It's also likely that the heater would be hardwired, but again there may be plug-in 240V heaters, I've never used electric heaters.

 

[Norcal]

Unless a welder is 3 phase they are not going to use a four prong plug and 3 phase is pretty rare in a residence.

 

[frankd]

Thanks for the feedback. The reason that I'm only looking to run one line is because I don't have any space left in the panel and don't want to shell out the cash for a bigger panel.
Regarding the heater... I was going to go with a 5,000-6,000 watt infrared heater so I think I'd only need a 30A circuit for the heater. I was more concerned about the amperage required for a welder. I looked into some heaters and they all seem to have 3 prong plugs, or they're hardwired with 2 hot and a ground...so it looks like that kinds solves my problem regarding 3 or 4 wires.

So it looks like I can just run a 2-conductor cable to power the heater and welder. is 50A and 6 gauge overkill? Please keep in mind I would not use both at the same time. I'm not a tradesman. I used to buy and fix up motorcycles In my spare time but with 2 small kids..."spare" time no longer exists. Even if I do get the welder, I would use it very infrequently I just wanted to run the wiring while I had the walls open. I do like Sberry's idea and I think I just might run a separate wire for the heater and for the welder..and just not connect one of them until we upgrade the electrical panel...at which point I could power them both

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Which model heater are you getting.

A heater would be 3 prong unless it has a 120v motor and/or controls.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Thanks for the feedback. The reason that I'm only looking to run one line is because I don't have any space left in the panel and don't want to shell out the cash for a bigger panel.
Regarding the heater... I was going to go with a 5,000-6,000 watt infrared heater so I think I'd only need a 30A circuit for the heater. I was more concerned about the amperage required for a welder. I looked into some heaters and they all seem to have 3 prong plugs, or they're hardwired with 2 hot and a ground...so it looks like that kinds solves my problem regarding 3 or 4 wires.

So it looks like I can just run a 2-conductor cable to power the heater and welder. is 50A and 6 gauge overkill? Please keep in mind I would not use both at the same time. I'm not a tradesman. I used to buy and fix up motorcycles In my spare time but with 2 small kids..."spare" time no longer exists. Even if I do get the welder, I would use it very infrequently I just wanted to run the wiring while I had the walls open. I do like Sberry's idea and I think I just might run a separate wire for the heater and for the welder..and just not connect one of them until we upgrade the electrical panel...at which point I could power them both

It is common for additional smaller panels to be located in the welder area. They're not much larger than an outbuilding panel or a AC disconnect. Not much money. ($20 plus breakers and parts for a 100 or 125 amp panel) You would need the breakers anyway.

I think an argument can be made it is less expensive than running every single circuit back to the main panel for some buildings. There are versions with external knife blade shut off switches.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Thanks for the feedback. The reason that I'm only looking to run one line is because I don't have any space left in the panel and don't want to shell out the cash for a bigger panel.
Regarding the heater... I was going to go with a 5,000-6,000 watt infrared heater so I think I'd only need a 30A circuit for the heater. I was more concerned about the amperage required for a welder. I looked into some heaters and they all seem to have 3 prong plugs, or they're hardwired with 2 hot and a ground...so it looks like that kinds solves my problem regarding 3 or 4 wires.

So it looks like I can just run a 2-conductor cable to power the heater and welder. is 50A and 6 gauge overkill? Please keep in mind I would not use both at the same time. I'm not a tradesman. I used to buy and fix up motorcycles In my spare time but with 2 small kids..."spare" time no longer exists. Even if I do get the welder, I would use it very infrequently I just wanted to run the wiring while I had the walls open. I do like Sberry's idea and I think I just might run a separate wire for the heater and for the welder..and just not connect one of them until we upgrade the electrical panel...at which point I could power them both

Unless your existing panel is outdated and unsafe, you could use the 2 available spaces to add one two pole breaker for a subpanel, then branch off that to the welder and heater with their own circuits. You can get a basic 4 space panel (about the size of a disconnect box) fairly cheap, and two 2-pole breakers would fit in that.

 

[Norcal]

What brand of panel? A quad breaker would work if A) The panel will accept them, B) The manufacturer makes quads that fit the need.

 

[frankd]

Thanks for the replies. I don't know why my duma$$ didn't think of just installing a sub-panel. new plan is to install a 50 Amp breaker and run 6/3 wire to the sub panel.
This way I could put the welder and heater on separate circuits as well as the outlets and lights. I'm also putting in some hardwired heat sensors/heat detectors. Its an attached garage with bedrooms above it.

 

[sberry]

6 space is common but they make an 8 just for this. Its in the same box.