Installing ceiling and insulation in pole barn-

[bobinyelm]

I just recently passed final inspection on my 32X60 pole barn with 12ft eve height over 4 10X10 insulated garage doors.

It's located in Western Washington, where the average daily winter low is 30 deg and the high 38deg, and the summer lows are 58 with the highs 78 or so. The climate is fairly moderate, so I can afford moderate heat loss/gain vs. the $$ cost of a bazillion "R-Factor" insulation considering my heating cost is about $1.20 per therm (100k BTU) or the equivalent of $1.50/gallon #2 heating oil.

It will be used as an automotive workshop, so the set temp could be quite a bit less than the toasty temperatures desired in a dwelling to be comfortable working temperature.

It has metal sheathing and roof with compressed 2 1/2" insulation bat under the metal and the frame (2 1/2" max where not compressed, and maybe 1/8" where compressed).

I would like to try to keep the heat loss from a 100k BTU nat gas furnace I am installing to a minimum vs. the cost to do so.

My trusses are doubled at each 12ft interval (building ends, plus 4 double trusses in between). That means w/out modification, I would have approx 12ft spans lengthwise between truss-pairs.

I asked the constructor of the shop about installing metal roofing/siding under the 2X6 clear-span truss chords, but he said that my trusses will not support ANYTHING except design snow load, and that's it. He said the failure points would be the perforated nail-plates that join the truss members, and thought maybe gluing/nailing larger plywood plates over the 2X wood would raise their capacity, but he's not an engineer. Not what I wanted to hear, of course.

Therefore, anything I install would have to be exceptionally light if hung from the truss chords.

The other alternative would be to add something on the underside of the roof purlins (2X6s spaced on 24" centers that run the full 60ft length of the building).

I did some searches here, and have some ideas based on those along with my own, but I hesitate to mention those ideas, because I'm interested in possible fresh or unconventional ideas, and posing my ideas would possibly limit replies.

So any crazy ideas are most welcome!

The main limitations are weight and cost, and I'd like to keep the color reflective (silver/white) to preserve whatever lighting I put in the building, which right now is 20 double-tube 4ft fluorescent-like 3700 lumen LED shop lights I plan to hang mainly along/from trusses, with a few suspended between the trusses.

I'd even consider attaching (essentially negligible weight) white plastic visqueen on the inside surface of the wood framing, as I'm sure that trapping dead air between the vapor barrier on the inside of the compressed roll insulation and the visqueen would likely add enough "insulation" to be useful. But I've never seen white visqueen, and I would have to be very careful to seal the inside of the inner vapor barrier so no moisture would enter, and be trapped inside the cavities.

Thanks-
Bob

 

[Oregon rock crusher]

I went with the insulating the purlins option on my pole with similar construction to yours. R-13 bats between the 2x6 purlins left a bit of an air gap to the vapor barrier. I capped that off with 2" polyiso foam panels over the bottom. At the time I insulated there were surplus (removed from school) sheets of polyiso available for $7.00 / 4x8 sheet. What a difference in the shop after adding the insulation with no negative issues. Ed.

 

[Firebrick43]

Your builder is probably mistaken or misunderstood. I have not seen a truss without at least a 10lb dead load rating on the bottom chord. Many have a 0 live load rating. The 10lb dead load will support a barn liner ceiling and fiberglass or cellulose insulation.

Your plans should have a truss diagram that will tell you the load ratings.

 

[bobinyelm]

Your builder is probably mistaken or misunderstood. I have not seen a truss without at least a 10lb dead load rating on the bottom chord. Many have a 0 live load rating. The 10lb dead load will support a barn liner ceiling and fiberglass or cellulose insulation.

Your plans should have a truss diagram that will tell you the load ratings.

I have about 10 pages of engineer stamped truss pages the truss company dropped off when they delivered the trusses, but I'll need to get the data interpreted to make sense out of it.

What is a "barn liner ceiling?" (I'll Google it of course)

I was told steel roof panels would cost about $2.30/sqft + about $.60sqft for insulation, or about $6000 for the ceiling alone plus any wood members, which is too pricy no anyway right now unfortunately even if the trusses will handle it.

 

[Firebrick43]

http://www.lbrspec.com/Library/RoofProfile.pdf

Here is a helpful page, your looking for item I. BCDL = bottom chord dead load.

Barn liner is a metal siding, same profile as the outside but in a lighter gauge (29-30) and normally in white. Around here at Menards it's usually under .75 a square foot and can be cheaper than that on sale.

When you consider cost to paint other materials and cost of more lumber for framing it's about the cheapest thing out there and reflects light well to

 

[Ironhorse74]

Bob, I was told exactly the same thing. I am about 80 miles south of you. Wouldn't be surprised if the trusses came from the same vendor. Tomorrow Gale insulation is coming out and putting R19 between the roof purlins. The insulation will be unfaced and held in place by twine. It will then be covered with a white vapor barrier.

 

[manwithtools]

One thing to consider, Bob's trusses are on 12 foot centers. He would need to add additional framing to support ceiling panels and insulation. This would add to the dead load and obviously take more materials and labor.

I'd go the insulation between the purlins route in his situation. I'm not sure how "tight" the rest of your building is, but you might find that adding additional insulation is not that beneficial given the other places you may loose heat.

It's all a matter of how much you will be using the shop and the heating costs, which it seems you are taking that into consideration already.

 

[bobinyelm]

Bob, I was told exactly the same thing. I am about 80 miles south of you. Wouldn't be surprised if the trusses came from the same vendor. Tomorrow Gale insulation is coming out and putting R19 between the roof purlins. The insulation will be unfaced and held in place by twine. It will then be covered with a white vapor barrier.

Interesting-

I'll get more info on my trusses this week if I can. Unfortunately I didn't research the truss options with my pole building vendor before purchasing the kit from them (Rochester Lumber in Rochester,WA). Upgrading probably would have been cheap at that point.

Could I ask the per Sq ft cost of installed R-19? Do you now have the same roll fiberglass w/ the white vapor barrier between your metal and the purlinsurance as I have?

I'd prefer to keep my heat lower in the building but if the trusses are not sufficient I may have few options.

Are you going to use 6mil white plastic sheeting for your vapor barrier below the bats? Is Gale doing that as well?

BTW, I'm off Exit 101 I-5.

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, I assume you have conventional roof truss, not scissor or anything else.

Second, you would be better off installing your insulation at the top of the wall height. Less air to heat

RockCcrusher has the right answer ! Recycled/reclaimed poly-iso is perfect for the job. 2" would be good. You might need to add 2x4 for nailing between the trusses.

The biggest issue is finding a place that sells recycled poly-iso nearby. You might need to rent a trailer and drive several hundred miles, but the savings compared to new is huge !


Rock Crusher, what type of fasteners did you use ?

 

[NUTTSGT]

Bob, insulate as much as you can afford. Everytime you turn that furnace on, you'll get a return on the investment for the insulation. It'll pay for itself during the entire time you own the place, whether it be 5 years down the road or twenty years.

As far as the cost goes, by all means, do it yourself if you possibly can.

 

[galute]

I had the same problem with mine except my trusses were on 10' centers. Use metal studs like they use in commercial drywall. It will save you 60 to 70% on added weight versus using wood with only about a 10% cost premium. Screw the tracks for the metal studs length wise on each side of the bottom cord with extra screws thru the perforated plates. This will add more load capacity to the bottom cords than what you will be adding weight wise by adding the ceiling. See pics for maybe a better explanation of how we did mine.

 

[Oregon rock crusher]

Recycled/reclaimed poly-iso is perfect for the job. 2" would be good. You might need to add 2x4 for nailing between the trusses.

Rock Crusher, what type of fasteners did you use ?

The recycler I bought the polyiso from had kept the stamped steel washers and screws from the original installation. He had a few barrels of them so I bought a few five gallon pails of the washers and self drilling screws for very little extra. Polyiso is quite ridged so I think it only took about eight fasteners / panel. After the walls and ceiling were tight the last thing I insulated and sealed was the doors....what a difference once it was all done.

 

[manwithtools]

Nice solution galute, did you also insulate over the metal ceiling? I'm not sure you have added much strength by fastening the metal studs to the bottom cord, but it's an elegant solution none the less. The metal studs are very stiff and straight if you get the right type.

 

[bobinyelm]

Bob, insulate as much as you can afford. Everytime you turn that furnace on, you'll get a return on the investment for the insulation. It'll pay for itself during the entire time you own the place, whether it be 5 years down the road or twenty years.

As far as the cost goes, by all means, do it yourself if you possibly can.

I agree w/ all you say, though the pay-back period counts. I am already 70, so how long I can work in the shop is at the very low end of your quoted payback period. That's why I mentioned the cost-to-savings ratio being important.

And yes, I have done all the work on the building I can, like installing the roof's rainwater evacuation system that cost me $3000 to do myself rather than $6000 that a local excavator wanted to do the job. Amazing that making sure every drop of rain that strikes the shop roof goes to a huge dry well on my 5ac would be that important, but local codes put that above other issues.

 

[Jeepster04]

Im amazed you all put trusses on 10 and 12' spacings, even if the truss are doubled up. Suppose its much cheaper than 4' spacings but I would worry with storms and 2' snows.

 

[bobinyelm]

I had the same problem with mine except my trusses were on 10' centers. Use metal studs like they use in commercial drywall. It will save you 60 to 70% on added weight versus using wood with only about a 10% cost premium. Screw the tracks for the metal studs length wise on each side of the bottom cord with extra screws thru the perforated plates. This will add more load capacity to the bottom cords than what you will be adding weight wise by adding the ceiling. See pics for maybe a better explanation of how we did mine.

I like the solution-
I'm going to check with my truss company, but mine LOOK like yours (they are not scissors mentioned in another post).

I like the idea of combining the metal framing with recycled rigid poly foam (killing two birds w/ one stone) if i could locate a source of used foam. I priced the "new" stuff at Home Depot, and it's simply out of my abilities now.

 

[bobinyelm]

First, I assume you have conventional roof truss, not scissor or anything else.

RockCcrusher has the right answer ! Recycled/reclaimed poly-iso is perfect for the job. 2" would be good. You might need to add 2x4 for nailing between the trusses.

The biggest issue is finding a place that sells recycled poly-iso nearby. You might need to rent a trailer and drive several hundred miles, but the savings compared to new is huge !

How does one search for used Poly-iso? is there a website where such things are listed?

I have 20ft flatbed and 20ft enclosed car hauler trailers, and a dually P/U so that's not a big factor.

 

[manwithtools]

Im amazed you all put trusses on 10 and 12' spacings, even if the truss are doubled up. Suppose its much cheaper than 4' spacings but I would worry with storms and 2' snows.

These are buildings that are engineered to the wind and snow loads for the areas they are in. I'm in TN and my biggest concern is wind load. I'm in a 30' x 40' with 5 total trusses. I'll admit I was a bit suspect, but I've been in that building in 60 mph winds and it's as solid as a rock.

As to 2' snows, that's in other areas and I'm sure the designs take that into account. Roof pitch and span obviously affect those too.

 

[bobinyelm]

Im amazed you all put trusses on 10 and 12' spacings, even if the truss are doubled up. Suppose its much cheaper than 4' spacings but I would worry with storms and 2' snows.

The poles (8X10s) are spaced at 12ft intervals, so I guess it was cheaper to build the design w/ one truss bolted either side of the vertical posts, with 2X6 purlins spanning the resulting nominal 12ft bays.

Putting trusses at closer intervals would have required very stout horizontal beams running down the sides of the building under the eves, and probably would have been prohibitively expensive- just guessing.

And given the chances for moderate snows that then get rained on (and weigh a ton per sq ft), yes, the spacing does concern me. Just had a 4" snow that got rained on, and thankfully slid off the roof (left the new gutters intact), but formed a glacier in front of the bays so compacted that it took a pick to break it up before it could be shoveled away. The builder assure me heavy snows usually slide off like that, but a heavy one under the wrong conditions has been known to collapse pole barns hereabouts.

 

[manwithtools]

How does one search for used Poly-iso? is there a website where such things are listed?

I have 20ft flatbed and 20ft enclosed car hauler trailers, and a dually P/U so that's not a big factor.

Try Craigslist, just search for insulation board. You may have to read between the lines to determine exactly what is they have for sale....

 

[bobinyelm]

Try Craigslist, just search for insulation board. You may have to read between the lines to determine exactly what is they have for sale....

I did Google and found there is a nationwide seller (http://www.insulationdepot.com/) and that there are multiple types of rigid foam available.

Not sure if they are a cost effective supplier, but that begs the question of WHICH foams may be suitable of making a ceiling requiring minimum supports (looking for maximum span).

I'd like to get ones that have reflective foil on one side, I suppose, as well. They mention ISO, XPS and EPS foam as choices

 

[manwithtools]

From a span prospective I don't see much difference. R-value is a different matter. If memory serves me right, It's ISO, XPS then EPS is decreasing R-value per inch. XPS and EPS are close, moisture presence being a mitigating factor (not an issue in your case). All are very light and rigid, ISO being the heaviest if IIRC.

Here is a place for comparison :http://insulfoam.com/insulation-comparisons/

 

[bobinyelm]

From a span prospective I don't see much difference. R-value is a different matter. If memory serves me right, It's ISO, XPS then EPS is decreasing R-value per inch. XPS and EPS are close, moisture presence being a mitigating factor (not an issue in your case). All are very light and rigid, ISO being the heaviest if IIRC.

Here is a place for comparison :http://insulfoam.com/insulation-comparisons/

Perfect-that's the site I needed.

Moisture should not be a factor in a ceiling, and if I were to use it as a structural ceiling, I could possibly apply white poly sheeting on the bottom side somehow for an illumination boost.

Applying bats between the purlins would work (with white poly over), but I'd have another 6ft of space to heat (120sqft X 60ft = 9600 cuft of air space above the trusses) to the 23,000 cuft below the trusses. Probably the additional R factor over foam might balance some of that out overall, but a lot of that warm air would just stratify uselessly up there.

 

[manwithtools]

Additionally, keep in mind that a forced air furnace could de-straify that air that's up high. Just need a "fan only" operation that runs a lower speed when not actively heating. We do this in a 17,000 ft shop that has 18 foot ceilings and it works great.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I agree w/ all you say, though the pay-back period counts. I am already 70, so how long I can work in the shop is at the very low end of your quoted payback period. That's why I mentioned the cost-to-savings ratio being important.

And yes, I have done all the work on the building I can, like installing the roof's rainwater evacuation system that cost me $3000 to do myself rather than $6000 that a local excavator wanted to do the job. Amazing that making sure every drop of rain that strikes the shop roof goes to a huge dry well on my 5ac would be that important, but local codes put that above other issues.

Congrats on making it that far in life and I hope I can do some of the same stuff you are doing when I'm your age.

I believe I have used the term "rigid foam" while searching CL.

 

[psu927]

I have about 10 pages of engineer stamped truss pages the truss company dropped off when they delivered the trusses, but I'll need to get the data interpreted to make sense out of it.

What is a "barn liner ceiling?" (I'll Google it of course)

I was told steel roof panels would cost about $2.30/sqft + about $.60sqft for insulation, or about $6000 for the ceiling alone plus any wood members, which is too pricy no anyway right now unfortunately even if the trusses will handle it.

Was that installed price? Because metal panels should be around $2.15-$2.30 per linear ft, not square ft. (material only) and you can get seconds which would be fine for ceiling liner for around $1.50-1.75lf which is around .50/sqft

 

[manwithtools]

Was that installed price? Because metal panels should be around $2.15-$2.30 per linear ft, not square ft. (material only) and you can get seconds which would be fine for ceiling liner for around $1.50-1.75lf which is around .50/sqft

He posted $2.30/sq. ft. plus $0.60 for installation so the installed price quoted is $2.90 / sq. ft. - a total rip-off

By the way, that linear foot is for material that is 3 feet wide, so it is for three square feet which is easy to calculate once that is understood. I suspect the original quoted price should have been $2.30 a "linear" foot, not "sq" foot and $0.60 ft installed or about $0.96 sq. ft. installed. If not, he needs to find a new builder or supplier.

 

[bobinyelm]

Was that installed price? Because metal panels should be around $2.15-$2.30 per linear ft, not square ft. (material only) and you can get seconds which would be fine for ceiling liner for around $1.50-1.75lf which is around .50/sqft

The contractor who erected my shop said per sqft, but maybe he misspoke. That was for the same panels they used on the walls and roof. He doesn't sell the product, but is an independent contractor who assembles "kits" sold by a local lumber yard that supplies a large percentage of our area.

I understand that shop/barn/garage liners are thinner and lighter, though have the same profile as the heavier stuff. Given my 12ft span, if I can minimize needed framing to support the ceiling due to the inherent rigidity from their profile (all assuming I can find my trusses will support the extra weight).

If my trusses CAN support the weight (liner panels and insulation bats), that would be ideal, as it would apparently put my cost at around a dollar or so a square foot with me and some friends doing the install.

 

[psu927]

He posted $2.30/sq. ft. plus $0.60 for installation so the installed price quoted is $2.90 / sq. ft. - a total rip-off

By the way, that linear foot is for material that is 3 feet wide, so it is for three square feet which is easy to calculate once that is understood. I suspect the original quoted price should have been $2.30 a "linear" foot, not "sq" foot and $0.60 ft installed or about $0.96 sq. ft. installed. If not, he needs to find a new builder or supplier.

$0.60 for insulation, not installation. He didn't specify if this is the installed price or not in that post.

 

[manwithtools]

$0.60 for insulation, not installation. He didn't specify if this is the installed price or not in that post.

So is it, insulation / installation - mostly the same thing is it not?

I will check my reading comprehension skills next time.

 

[psu927]

I had to go back and look to make sure I was correct. lol

 

[bobinyelm]

Congrats on making it that far in life and I hope I can do some of the same stuff you are doing when I'm your age.

I believe I have used the term "rigid foam" while searching CL.

Well, first, thank-you (I guess).

I don't like to think of myself as "that far [along] in life," or "old," though I guess I probably am. But I don't ever think of it that way, really, except something in the future, and hearing it is a rather unpleasant glimpse of reality (best avoided, lest one starts acting his age).

To be perfectly honest, if it were not for a MV accident (I was riding in a hotel van when the driver crashed it) 20 years ago that has caused me 5 back surgeries and a hip replacement (turns out I didn't need the hip, but they thought my hip was causing part of the problem at the time), I'd still be doing whatever I ever did.

I say all this so you don't give in to pre-supposed limits you might think you should observe at some set age. I wouldn't go so far as to say you're only as young as you feel, but as long as you DO feel you can do something you probably CAN.

Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence, and yes "rigid foam" would be my first choice if my trusses have the structural strength (or can be modified) to safely hold the weight and still meet the snow load design limits. I plan to call the truss manufacturers tomorrow and find out what I have, and what I can do with them.

 

[bobinyelm]

So is it, insulation / installation - mostly the same thing is it not?

I will check my reading comprehension skills next time.

Yep, I was quoting estimated product prices (though they may be inaccurate), since I was going to do the job myself (with some help). R-19 unfaced bats were quoted at about 60 cents a sq ft. I used R-13 in my last WA shop and it was plenty (given our mild climate), but it was a stick built on 16" centers. I have not found R-13 unfaced rolls or bats.

 

[galute]

Nice solution galute, did you also insulate over the metal ceiling? I'm not sure you have added much strength by fastening the metal studs to the bottom cord, but it's an elegant solution none the less. The metal studs are very stiff and straight if you get the right type.

After it was all installed we blew in 12'' (should settle to 10) of cellulose insulation. I agree we didn't add a lot of strength to the bottom cords but we did add enough to cover the added weight of the ceiling. All things considered, the metal studs, the sheeting and insulation is very light weight. My memory is a bit fuzzy but I think it was only like 5 pounds square foot added all in. Also it was inexpensive to do. Sheeting, studs, insulation all done for less than 1500 bucks for a 30 x 50 ceiling and it looks nice.

 

[manwithtools]

I like it. Great Job!

My trusses are on 10 foot centers too....hmmmm.....

 

[jtuttle4]

After it was all installed we blew in 12'' (should settle to 10) of cellulose insulation. I agree we didn't add a lot of strength to the bottom cords but we did add enough to cover the added weight of the ceiling. All things considered, the metal studs, the sheeting and insulation is very light weight. My memory is a bit fuzzy but I think it was only like 5 pounds square foot added all in. Also it was inexpensive to do. Sheeting, studs, insulation all done for less than 1500 bucks for a 30 x 50 ceiling and it looks nice.

Did you put up any poly liner or anything between your metal ceiling material and the bottom of the trusses? I'm planning on doing the same with a metal ceiling and blown in cellulose but am concerned if I don't seal up the bottom side that I may get dust/particles from the cellulose coming down around the edges and seams of the ceiling.

 

[Ironhorse74]

Interesting-

I'll get more info on my trusses this week if I can. Unfortunately I didn't research the truss options with my pole building vendor before purchasing the kit from them (Rochester Lumber in Rochester,WA). Upgrading probably would have been cheap at that point.

Could I ask the per Sq ft cost of installed R-19? Do you now have the same roll fiberglass w/ the white vapor barrier between your metal and the purlinsurance as I have?

I'd prefer to keep my heat lower in the building but if the trusses are not sufficient I may have few options.

Are you going to use 6mil white plastic sheeting for your vapor barrier below the bats? Is Gale doing that as well?

BTW, I'm off Exit 101 I-5.

I am off exit 21. They are putting it up as I type this. I will try to get a picture of the process. With tax and labor right at 1.30 a square foot.

 

[galute]

Did you put up any poly liner or anything between your metal ceiling material and the bottom of the trusses? I'm planning on doing the same with a metal ceiling and blown in cellulose but am concerned if I don't seal up the bottom side that I may get dust/particles from the cellulose coming down around the edges and seams of the ceiling.

I didn't use any plastic of any type. I did get a small amount of dust for the first month or two but it was barely noticeable. I'm thinking maybe the cellulose settled tight enough to seal it off because I don't notice it anymore. Could of been the dust that got everywhere during the blowing in process that I was seeing. Whatever the cause, it stopped fairly quickly.

 

[Ironhorse74]

This is what they are using.



upload images free



upload image online

 

[bobinyelm]

After it was all installed we blew in 12'' (should settle to 10) of cellulose insulation. Sheeting, studs, insulation all done for less than 1500 bucks for a 30 x 50 ceiling and it looks nice.

I LIKE that price. I figured I'd be happy w/ $2000 or less.

My only reservation about cellulose would be that it would be tough to blow in after the ceiling was in, but I guess since I plan to leave one bay open to the purlins (so I can lift vans like my tall Sprinter full-height), I could crawl down the trusses on boards laid on the chords with the hose and work my way back as I blow. Unlike batts, where you apply as you go, with blow-in I'd only get enough blower "free-time" (Unless I rent one when each bay or two was done, since I'm guessing completing more than 2 12X32 bays/day on ladders would be pushing it.)

Also not sure if the upper vapor barrier would create a problem (the backside of the sandwiched insulation batting under the metal siding). If moisture made it up there and condensed and dripped (as it does now heating w/ an unvented NatGas heater) onto the cellulose it would be bad (insulation and weight wise). Right now my gable-ends are not vented, so maybe providing vents at the ends under the roof overhangs would reduce any chance of that. Did you install vents on your gable ends?