Installing oven in garage 220v welder plug

[Xkylescorex]

I already have a 220v outlet for my welder in the garage and would like to hook up an old oven to do powdercoating. The welder takes a nema 6-50 which is a 3 prong outlet. I have 3 wires and a copper uncoated wire coming out of the oven. Whats the best way to do this? The wires are black white and red from the oven and one thick bare wire i guess is a ground of some sort.

 

[Xkylescorex]

Here is a picture of the wires coming from my oven

 

[Xkylescorex]

This is tge plug end I picked up at tractor supply. How would I wire it so I can just plug it in?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

U CANNOT use a 6-50r with an oven or range because it has no neutral.

A 6-50r is a 240v grounded receptacle.

An oven needs a 10-50r(3-wire) 125/250v non grounded outlet or a 14-50r(4-wire) 125v/250v grounded outlet.

Your oven has a 4-wire whip and would need a 14-50r.

And since u dont have an existing range outlet, if u ran a new circuit for the range it would need to be 4-wire.

How many wires do u have in the 6-50r j box?

 

[Xkylescorex]

U CANNOT use a 6-50r with an oven or range because it has no neutral.

A 6-50r is a 240v grounded receptacle.

An oven needs a 10-50r(3-wire) 125/250v non grounded outlet or a 14-50r(4-wire) 125v/250v grounded outlet.

Your oven has a 4-wire whip and would need a 14-50r.

And since u dont have an existing range outlet, if u ran a new circuit for the range it would need to be 4-wire.

How many wires do u have in the 6-50r j box?

Of course I can't! Seems like this is what I allays run into. I'm not sure what I have in the 60 50 box. I guess I can run a new circuit. But I was tryouts my to get away with not doing that

 

[LS6 Tommy]

NO, NO, NO. As posted above, you can't do it. They are electrically completely different.

 

[Slowgsr]

Did you open the box?

When I install welding plugs I'll run 6/3 bx or 6/3 romex depending on the application. I just tuck the neutral in the box

 

[sands35]

Open up the range console where the wires go in. It may allow you to wire it up so the neutral and the ground are common. (Yes, this is code compliant, provided that the oven was provisioned for it by the manufacturer.)

Source: I used to work for Whirlpool cooking.

 

[pattenp]

Open up the range console where the wires go in. It may allow you to wire it up so the neutral and the ground are common. (Yes, this is code compliant, provided that the oven was provisioned for it by the manufacturer.)

Source: I used to work for Whirlpool cooking.

Bad suggestion. He should not use the equipment ground in the outlet circuit as a neutral.

 

[404]

Bad suggestion. He should not use the equipment ground in the outlet circuit as a neutral.

By modern regulations, that is correct.

Before modern regulations, that was a common way of doing things.

 

[pattenp]

By modern regulations, that is correct.

Before modern regulations, that was a common way of doing things.

The equipment ground conductor (EGC) was never used as a neutral even under the old way. The old 3 wire style stove plugs are ungrounded, the neutral was bonded to the stove frame to ground it. One thing that can compound the issue with using the OP's welder circuit is if the circuit is on a sub-panel where the neutral and EGC are isolated. The imbalance of current is being sent over the whole equipment ground system. It's still a bad suggestion, new way or old way.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Open up the range console where the wires go in. It may allow you to wire it up so the neutral and the ground are common. (Yes, this is code compliant, provided that the oven was provisioned for it by the manufacturer.)

Source: I used to work for Whirlpool cooking.

NO it is NOT code compliant to use a BARE or insulated equipment ground for neutral return current.

Doing so can create a shock potential.

As pattenp said above, EGCs were NEVER used for this. Old 3-wire stove/range outlets had/have an insulated NEUTRAL.

A 6-50r and p, commonly used for welders, has 2 hots and a ground but no neutral.

The OP needs to check the j box and see if a 4-wire circuit was ran.

Otherwise, the only way to hookup a range with no existing 3-wire range circuit is to run a new 4-wire circuit.

3-wire range and dryer circuits are no longer permitted to be installed new.

 

[Syberia]

By modern regulations, that is correct.

Before modern regulations, that was a common way of doing things.

No. Old 3 wire circuits used an insulated neutral, bonded ONLY at the main panel. There was no ground. If the OP attempts to use the ground wire as a neutral, he will energize every piece of metal in the circuit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Its funny how old electrical is so confusing to some and how there are so many misconceptions. Yet the concepts arent hard to grasp....

 

[404]

Plan B: The oven heater elements only use 240. No neutral needed. The clock and the light won't work. On certain stove tops around 1975 with push button controls the top surface elements will not have all the heat ranges.

Connect the bare ground wire to the frame of the stove.

Complain away.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Depends on the controls....and this obviously isnt code compliant.

 

[sands35]

NO it is NOT code compliant to use a BARE or insulated equipment ground for neutral return current.

Doing so can create a shock potential.

As pattenp said above, EGCs were NEVER used for this. Old 3-wire stove/range outlets had/have an insulated NEUTRAL.

A 6-50r and p, commonly used for welders, has 2 hots and a ground but no neutral.

The OP needs to check the j box and see if a 4-wire circuit was ran.

Otherwise, the only way to hookup a range with no existing 3-wire range circuit is to run a new 4-wire circuit.

3-wire range and dryer circuits are no longer permitted to be installed new.

OK - sure, I should have said insulate neutral.

OP said "old" oven. Without a better pic, old is old, not just a couple years old. Can't tell from the pic that the whip is connected and original or not.

 

[Brian_WK]

This is probably not worth mentioning to the OP as he is already having electrical questions but ill put it out there for someone else to read and create more of a S-storm. I did the same-thing wanted to add a plug in to my oven to run it off of my welder outlet in my garage. This oven is only used to powder coat nothing else. So usually only plugged in for a few hours or so. My oven was the digital controls type they used the 120V to power the controls and the light bulb. I simply added a 240v to 120v step down transformer to power these. I wouldn't recommend this for a permanent install but I wouldn't assume that this is permanent being he want to run it off of his welder outlet.

Brian

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OK - sure, I should have said insulate neutral.

OP said "old" oven. Without a better pic, old is old, not just a couple years old. Can't tell from the pic that the whip is connected and original or not.

It has NOTHING to do with the whip on the oven.

It has to do with the 6-50r the OP has that has an EGC.

Did u read any of the comments i made?

 

[evildky]

The OP appears to have a built in over which would have been wired into a J box and likely had no plug end on it to begin with.

Most ovens will work without the ground. They do this so you can hook up a 3 prong cord on a new appliance not have to rewire your house when you buy a new appliance. Often the neutral bar is bonded to the ground inside the panel anyhow. that being said...

OP, the red and black should be your hot wires, they would go to the blades on, the white would be your neutral and would go to the center prong, the unshielded wire would be a ground, assuming your is in fact grounded inside the oven, you can pop the panel where the wip leads in and see if it's even connected. If it makes you feel better you can run it to a ground or just leave it disconnected.

 

[sands35]

It has NOTHING to do with the whip on the oven.

It has to do with the 6-50r the OP has that has an EGC.

Did u read any of the comments i made?

Yup. I'm not going to spend time getting testy. Old ovens can be found all the time with 3 wires, not 4. I simple suggested that the OP pull the cover off the electrical feed into the oven to see if there is a diagram to hook up 3 not 4. Thanks.

 

[pattenp]

The OP appears to have a built in over which would have been wired into a J box and likely had no plug end on it to begin with.

Most ovens will work without the ground. They do this so you can hook up a 3 prong cord on a new appliance not have to rewire your house when you buy a new appliance. Often the neutral bar is bonded to the ground inside the panel anyhow. that being said...

OP, the red and black should be your hot wires, they would go to the blades on, the white would be your neutral and would go to the center prong, the unshielded wire would be a ground, assuming your is in fact grounded inside the oven, you can pop the panel where the wip leads in and see if it's even connected. If it makes you feel better you can run it to a ground or just leave it disconnected.

So you are advising the OP to use the ground pin on a 6-50 plug to be hooked up as a neutral to the stove and plug it into an outlet that is wired with no neutral, using the EGC as a neutral? Oh boy...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The OP appears to have a built in over which would have been wired into a J box and likely had no plug end on it to begin with.

Most ovens will work without the ground. They do this so you can hook up a 3 prong cord on a new appliance not have to rewire your house when you buy a new appliance. Often the neutral bar is bonded to the ground inside the panel anyhow. that being said...

OP, the red and black should be your hot wires, they would go to the blades on, the white would be your neutral and would go to the center prong, the unshielded wire would be a ground, assuming your is in fact grounded inside the oven, you can pop the panel where the wip leads in and see if it's even connected. If it makes you feel better you can run it to a ground or just leave it disconnected.

Again, the issue isnt with how the oven is wired at its terminals inside the oven.

The issue is with the outlet THAT HAS NO NEUTRAL.

I guess people lack reading comprehension because I already said this numerous times.

And even with the ground being being bonded at the main panel, it still isnt right to have neutral current on a bare conductor or metalic pathways. This creates a shock potential.

Yup. I'm not going to spend time getting testy. Old ovens can be found all the time with 3 wires, not 4. I simple suggested that the OP pull the cover off the electrical feed into the oven to see if there is a diagram to hook up 3 not 4. Thanks.

Dude, either youre not reading what I wrote or u failed to comprehend it.

The issue isnt whether the oven can be wired 3-wire or 4-wire.

The issue is THERE IS NO NEUTRAL ON A 6-50r outlet.

The first thing the OP needs to do is open the j box of the 6-50r.

Ive said all this numerous times!

*facepalm*

 

[Xkylescorex]

Thanks guys. I just decided to run a new 4 wire circuit. Its easier that way. Now my only question is that ive bought a plug end for tge whip on the oven. The directions show the ground as a green wire and not as bare copper. When I wire the blades up the bare copper touches the white nuetral inside the plug end. No way around it. Is this going to be a problem?

 

[Xkylescorex]

 

[pattenp]

The whip you have was probably for being hardwired not for a plug. Pull out the solid ground wire and get a piece of green stranded THHN. Is the white stranded?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Or wrap some green electrical tape around it.

But yeah BX, MC, FMC isnt meant to have a plug on the end. Youd be better off with a piece of cordage or go to home depot and get a 4-wire range cord!

What gauge are the wires- black red and white?

 

[Xkylescorex]

The white is stranded. Im not sure what gauge the wire is

 

[pattenp]

I was thinking it may be a piece of #8 Romex put in flex. If that's the case you can't pull out the ground to replace it. Put a range cord on it.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, if the circuit originates from a Main Panel the neutral and the EGC are bonded together in the panel.

If the circuit originates from a Sub-Panel, the Neutral and EGC are separate.

Am I correct?

 

[Fallon]

Ground & neutral should only be bonded at the appropriate place in the panel, never anywhere else. Shorting in the plug like that mean the ground which should only ever carry current in an emergency is carrying current normally. You can then get shocked by things you wouldn't expect to.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The white is stranded. Im not sure what gauge the wire is

It looks like its labeled.

I was thinking it may be a piece of #8 Romex put in flex. If that's the case you can't pull out the ground to replace it. Put a range cord on it.

Looks like its labeled so it wouldnt be Romex.

IMHO, if the circuit originates from a Main Panel the neutral and the EGC are bonded together in the panel.

If the circuit originates from a Sub-Panel, the Neutral and EGC are separate.

Am I correct?

While that is true for the respective panels, it doesnt mean that its ok to bond the neutral at appliances and equipment.

 

[Xkylescorex]

It isnt romex it actually feeds into the oven. Not connected like a range plug would be or a washer pigtail. The ground wire does not feed into the range. It is just screwed onto the back sheetmetal panel of the oven.
My welder outlet has 3 wires into it. A ground and two hots.