Installing PEX In Old Farmhouse

[neblinc]

I am wanting to redo all the plumbing in my old farmhouse using PEX. I have the old galvanized pipe which has been starting to get worse with rust flakes and prone to freezing in the crawl space. Have some questions.

Is 1/2 inch the way to go for all the lines? I have 1 inch coming into the house to the 60 gallon pressure tank, then it's a jumble of different sizes going to the rest of the fixtures.

Planning on using PEX A with the copper crimp fittings. Any recommendations on brands of crimpers? Masterforce/Menards, Sharkbite, IWISS, others?

I plan on ordering the PEX online and getting the fittings at Menards, they have a pretty good selection.

I will get a 6 port and 10 port manifold. Do I run the supply to the hot water heater from the end of the 3/4 inch 10 port?

What about insulating the pipes. Do I have to allow clearance when mounting the PEX to the joist?

I am sure I will have more questions. Been trying to search for as much info online but am looking for real world experience from people here.

Randy

 

[ishiboo]

I am wanting to redo all the plumbing in my old farmhouse using PEX. I have the old galvanized pipe which has been starting to get worse with rust flakes and prone to freezing in the crawl space. Have some questions.

Is 1/2 inch the way to go for all the lines? I have 1 inch coming into the house to the 60 gallon pressure tank, then it's a jumble of different sizes going to the rest of the fixtures.

If you are doing a "home run" system, then 1/2" may be fine for you after the manifolds. I like to provide 3/4" to high volume things like outdoor spigots, showers, etc... better to be safe than sorry.

If you are doing a traditional branch system as you would do with copper, which is still perfectly acceptable with PEX, then your trunks should be 3/4" or 1".

Planning on using PEX A with the copper crimp fittings. Any recommendations on brands of crimpers? Masterforce/Menards, Sharkbite, IWISS, others?

If you are paying the premium for PEX A, then I would use expansion fittings which I think are the easiest to use and have the best reliability. All the expanders "work" more or less reliably... unlike the crimp tools which you may have to adjust to get a perfect crimp.

I'd reserve the copper crimp rings for PEX C. It's a less expensive option. I've done a lot of PEX C with hand crimpers... my next project I'm getting the Milwaukee expander and running PEX C.

I plan on ordering the PEX online and getting the fittings at Menards, they have a pretty good selection.

I will get a 6 port and 10 port manifold. Do I run the supply to the hot water heater from the end of the 3/4 inch 10 port?

Menards does have a pretty good fitting selection. The tubing is also not that expensive there.

What about insulating the pipes. Do I have to allow clearance when mounting the PEX to the joist?

I am sure I will have more questions. Been trying to search for as much info online but am looking for real world experience from people here.

Randy

Minimal clearance... you normally insulate between the joists.

 

[neblinc]

I guess the reason for choosing PEX A was that it was more flexible from what I researched. So you think PEX C would work fine?

Randy

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you are paying the premium for PEX A, then I would use expansion fittings which I think are the easiest to use and have the best reliability. All the expanders "work" more or less reliably... unlike the crimp tools which you may have to adjust to get a perfect crimp.

I'd reserve the copper crimp rings for PEX C. It's a less expensive option. I've done a lot of PEX C with hand crimpers... my next project I'm getting the Milwaukee expander and running PEX C.

Just a DIY guy here, but I though PEX A was REQUIRED for expander rings ?

Also, when using expander rings, can you use standard PEX fitting ? Some places say you need special fittings.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I guess the reason for choosing PEX A was that it was more flexible from what I researched. So you think PEX C would work fine?

Randy

I don't know what kind of PEX we used on my son's house about 10 years ago, but it was VERY stiff. We actually had to go buy straight sticks because the memory from the coil was so bad.

I have been told, that if you buy coils and are installing during summer, just stretch the coil out and leave in in the sun for a few hours.

"Joints" are expensive and really cuts down the flow. Stick with 3/4". The most "cost effective" way to join PEX to a fitting is copper rings and crimpers.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Ok, my plumbing "experience" source is a helper who hasn't started to shave and doesn't look legal to drive. He claims PEX A leaches into your water, B is stronger, and C is exposed to radiation. My other "reliable" source, the internet, doesn't say what A leaches, B is simply"common", and C is mfg with an electronic beam gun. ( I am entirely comfortable with electron beam.) There is a lawsuit out there over C being prone to leaks long term. ( I have had leaky plastic pipe before. Never again.)

My house has PEX B and I think it is great stuff. As far as it being "stiff", I find it much more flexible than both steel pipe and copper.

 

[Aaron_W]

We replaced nearly all the plumbing under the house with PEX in 2012. House is over 100 years old and has been updated in stages over the years, so plumbing was a mix of black iron pipe, galvanized and small amount of copper.

It was amazingly easy to do, I think my wife and I got it done in 2 days including the installation of a tankless water heater.

We used the PEX Home Depot sells, with their crimping tool that resembles a medium size pair of bolt cutters.

We were fanatical about using the go / no go tool, but didn't have any issues with getting bad crimps. We went with 3/4" throughout, cost difference between 1/2" and 3/4" was minimal and bigger has better flow.

It is super easy to add in a tee or a valve. We went a little overboard on shut offs and isolated every water using room, so future work won't require going out to the meter and shutting down water to the whole house.

Going into our 6th year with it, and not one leak.

Another nice feature is the color, we went red and blue to make identification of hot and cold water lines easy. It makes the basement look like some sort of deranged model of the human circulatory system.

 

[dave_dj1]

You may want to get it local, use 20' sticks as it will be easier to work with than a roll. Go 3/4 to as 1/2 is only about 3/8 internally and the cost is not that much more. Use as few couplings as possible, it's better to have sweeping radius' whenever you can. I like to use red and blue as well for ease of identifying them at the fixture. As mentioned, get the crimping tool at HD or a supply house with the rings.

 

[neblinc]

We replaced nearly all the plumbing under the house with PEX in 2012. House is over 100 years old and has been updated in stages over the years, so plumbing was a mix of black iron pipe, galvanized and small amount of copper.

It was amazingly easy to do, I think my wife and I got it done in 2 days including the installation of a tankless water heater.

We used the PEX Home Depot sells, with their crimping tool that resembles a medium size pair of bolt cutters.

We were fanatical about using the go / no go tool, but didn't have any issues with getting bad crimps. We went with 3/4" throughout, cost difference between 1/2" and 3/4" was minimal and bigger has better flow.

It is super easy to add in a tee or a valve. We went a little overboard on shut offs and isolated every water using room, so future work won't require going out to the meter and shutting down water to the whole house.

Going into our 6th year with it, and not one leak.

Another nice feature is the color, we went red and blue to make identification of hot and cold water lines easy. It makes the basement look like some sort of deranged model of the human circulatory system.

Did you use the manifold system or branch when you did yours?

Randy

 

[yeldogt]

For a true "home run" system -- every outlet has a run back to the manifold ... including the ice maker and dishwasher. If you look at the flow needed -- 1/2 PEX is more than enough ... in fact 3/8 PEX can be used (and has been) for most fixtures. They all have limiters anyway.

The tubing should go directly from the manifold to the fixture -- fittings (if needed anyplace) should be expansion plastic that do not restrict flow.

Remember you are only feeding one fixture -- the manifold has a large feed to it. You can buy pre-insulated PEX for the hot water feeds.

I like the Viega manifolds. Funny thing ... the guys at the supply house said that some manufacturers are changing what they make because they can't get people to use the 3/8th pipe even though its the correct pipe for many applications .. so it's actually costing more in someplace. Some people also like the compression fitting at the manifolds -- in case things are changed .. no pipe damage.

 

[Aaron_W]

Did you use the manifold system or branch when you did yours?

Randy

We did a straight replacement, so just branched as neccessary.


We used 100 foot rolls. It is kind of a pain but we were able to get the legs straight enough and over time it relaxes. We would tack in just enough hangers to hold it in loosely in place, then move onto another piece. After a couple hours we would come back and it had relaxed enough to put in some additional hangers. There were some areas in the crawl space that initially we just left laying like hose and came back a few days later once it had had straightened more to hang it.

It is super easy to trim to size, or to add a branch or valve at a later date.

It helps to be open minded with it not get too set on old straight metal pipe techniques from the past.

 

[Boomer343]

On retrofits you quite often end up with a mixture of home runs and branch.

With today's low flow fixtures the small drop in volume isn't an issue as has been pointed out. You can do home runs to high demand or larger diameter to second floors then branch off.

Use a hair dryer to straighten out the coiled pipe if need be. I've used the copper rings and the stainless crimps. Sometimes both on the same job. Biggest problem I've had lately has been with poor quality hangers/supports. If you are nailing into old lumber you may want to go with hangers that use screws. Also get a couple of plugs for the pipe and tape them in place when pushing the pipe through joists or cavities. Save time later cleaning **** out of fixtures. Drill larger holes than you think necessary.

When you are done you will be surprised at how easy the job was.

 

[TheOtherChris]

2 years ago I bought an old farmhouse that was vacant for years and had frozen at least once. When I checked the crawl space I found Galvanized, copper, PVC and PEX with an assortment of connections including sharkbites.

I replumbed everything. I used 1 inch Uponor PEX tubing to the Viega manifold and then 1/2 inch tubing in red and blue for a home run installation. I originally planned to use the expansion fittings as they offer a little better flow but the Milwaukee expander was on back order. Ended up using copper crimp rings on everything (but I would use the stainless zip rings if I did it again).
Bought nearly everything from Supplyhouse.com.

As far as 1/2 vs 3/4 keep in mind that the larger the line the longer it takes for the hot water to replace the cooled off water in the line before it is hot at the fixture (unless you're using a recirculating system)

 

[neblinc]

So now I am torn between using the home run or branch set up. I guess it will cost me quite a bit more using the home run with all the tubing compared to the branch system. I like the idea of being able shut individual circuits off, but then again how often would I really need to do that.
I need to sit down and price everything out both ways and the amount of time it will take.

Randy

 

[Aaron_W]

So now I am torn between using the home run or branch set up. I guess it will cost me quite a bit more using the home run with all the tubing compared to the branch system. I like the idea of being able shut individual circuits off, but then again how often would I really need to do that.
I need to sit down and price everything out both ways and the amount of time it will take.

Randy

It is easy to add in valves, running branches doesn't prevent that. You have the cost of the valve but they are fairly cheap maybe $10-12. I suppose your layout could make that difficult though, we are lucky in having good access to most of the underside of the house with about 50% being a semi-finished basement.

Unlike most traditional pipe, it is very easy to splice in and add valves or additional branches as needed. We initially only did about 75% of the house, and put a valve into the main line where the water enters the finished part of the basement. That allows us to shut off water to most of the the house with one valve without having to mess around at the meter or under the house.

We later replaced the rest of the plumbing and added more valves allowing us to shut off each room individually. Very nice to be able to work on one bathroom and leave the other fully functional.



There are still applications where you really want conventional rigid pipe, like the run to a shower head or spigot. PEX has too much flex to give you a really solid fixture in these cases. Sharkbites work well here, but they also make threaded to PEX adaptors which are much cheaper and work just as well, just not as quick to install.

 

[ynned]

So now I am torn between using the home run or branch set up. I guess it will cost me quite a bit more using the home run with all the tubing compared to the branch system. I like the idea of being able shut individual circuits off, but then again how often would I really need to do that.
I need to sit down and price everything out both ways and the amount of time it will take.

Randy

Look at the price of fittings; you can buy a lot of tubing for the price of a few fittings at almost three bucks or more each. I did kind of a combination, not so much as to save money on tubing, but to save time and effort drilling joists and pulling tubing.

 

[capww8]

I re-did our house with PEX a couple years ago (shark bite brand) when we installed a tankless, and gutted the guest bath.

I think I'm going to wind up re-doing it this year, after living with it for a while, replacing all the hot lines with insulated pex, and adding a recirculation pump.

 

[Majordisorder]

I despise the home run systems, especially if your water heater is a good distance away. For example, a kitchen and bath that are close together but the water heater is a good distance away. You draw some hot water at the kitchen sink. It takes awhile to get hot because of the distance. Now you go draw some water in the bathroom which is back to back with the kitchen and you have the same long wait even though the fixtures are very close to each other. If I had it to do over, I would have just run 3/4" for the hot and cold, then "t" off to the points of use. There are obviously guidelines as to what size the supply runs should be depending on the potential number of fixtures that might be used at the same time.

 

[siegsuwa]

I just finished replumbing my small house with PEX B orderd from pexuniverse, which has a great educational resources.

I used the copper manifolds with sweated stop valves, and did a "mostly" home run system. Every fixtures in the laundry room and bathrooms have their own runs, and in the kitchen I used stop valves with tees for the ice maker and washing machine. No flow problems at all. Huge improvement over my 60 year old galvanized pipe for sure.

I used PEX B with the Apollo crimping tool from Home Depot. My local HD sells Apollo PEX which is PEX B. I ordered the spools online and found them a bit challenging, but totally workable. I would hand straighten lengths to work with and stretch them out in the basement, then feed up to the fixtures.

PEX A seems more workable, but again, has the chlorine leaching concerns, so I just avoided it completely as PEX B was readily available and doesn't seem to have any known major drawbacks other than flexibility, which as stated above, is more flexible than iron and copper.

I recommend diagramming out your complete water supply circuits, and determining how many stop valves and fitting you'll need,and ordering them online. Significant cost savings and everything will look uniform. I used the 18" copper standoffs from Menards for hot water heater (code requires PEX to be 18" above the heater). I used 3" galvanized ******* with DE fittings at the base of the heater.

I also ordered PEX stubout brackets, with bend supports and a steel plate that screws to the studs. Most of the PEX stubs are hidden under the sink vanity/cupboard anyway. The copper stubout might look nice by the toilet, but going to the trouble of designing a home run system, then hiding a crimp connection in the wall seems counter productive to me. All of my crimps are external to the finish walls/floors and serviceable in the future. I left about 12-18 inches of PEX at each stub when I ran the tubing, then cut to length for each stop valve.

Good luck!

 

[neblinc]

I just finished replumbing my small house with PEX B orderd from pexuniverse, which has a great educational resources.

I used the copper manifolds with sweated stop valves, and did a "mostly" home run system. Every fixtures in the laundry room and bathrooms have their own runs, and in the kitchen I used stop valves with tees for the ice maker and washing machine. No flow problems at all. Huge improvement over my 60 year old galvanized pipe for sure.

I used PEX B with the Apollo crimping tool from Home Depot. My local HD sells Apollo PEX which is PEX B. I ordered the spools online and found them a bit challenging, but totally workable. I would hand straighten lengths to work with and stretch them out in the basement, then feed up to the fixtures.

PEX A seems more workable, but again, has the chlorine leaching concerns, so I just avoided it completely as PEX B was readily available and doesn't seem to have any known major drawbacks other than flexibility, which as stated above, is more flexible than iron and copper.

I recommend diagramming out your complete water supply circuits, and determining how many stop valves and fitting you'll need,and ordering them online. Significant cost savings and everything will look uniform. I used the 18" copper standoffs from Menards for hot water heater (code requires PEX to be 18" above the heater). I used 3" galvanized ******* with DE fittings at the base of the heater.

I also ordered PEX stubout brackets, with bend supports and a steel plate that screws to the studs. Most of the PEX stubs are hidden under the sink vanity/cupboard anyway. The copper stubout might look nice by the toilet, but going to the trouble of designing a home run system, then hiding a crimp connection in the wall seems counter productive to me. All of my crimps are external to the finish walls/floors and serviceable in the future. I left about 12-18 inches of PEX at each stub when I ran the tubing, then cut to length for each stop valve.

Good luck!

So what size did you end up using? I saw those standoffs at Menards, are they 1/2" crimps? Also it looks like all the manifolds have 1/2" crimp fittings.

Randy

 

[Bruce 993 SEA]

Plumbers installed the supply side of the entire project house I'm working on yesterday in 6 hours. They did demo and drain the day before. This includes some small and nasty areas under the house.

They used the expansion type with the barbed fittings. As they use the expansion tools every day, they are paid for over and over.

For a one off, it is hard to justify the cordless tool. Maybe the manual one.

They did a branch system.

 

[yeldogt]

The reason for home run w/ PEX is to eliminate fittings and provide quicker hot water -- the tubing is cheap.

Do a search -- you don't want to use oversize tube -- there is no benefit ... just the reverse.

 

[siegsuwa]

So what size did you end up using? I saw those standoffs at Menards, are they 1/2" crimps? Also it looks like all the manifolds have 1/2" crimp fittings.

Randy

My house has a 3/4" main supply, so I transitioned that to 3/4" PEX to the cold manifolds (2x6port, both open end), then to the hot water heater, then back to a 6-port closed end for the hot water.

Definitely pay extra for the manifolds with stop valves. It saves you having to cap each unused port, and allows you to bring the water circuits online one at a time to use or testing.

If you have a bad crimp or need to redo a line, I found that using a dremel with cutoff disc works very well for cutting the copper ring carefully, then prying it off with a screwdriver or pliers. If you nick the barb, it's done for and you have to replace it.

All of my fixture runs from the manifolds are 1/2" PEX tube.

If you have to use tees or right angle fittings, the brass fittings interior diameter is slightly larger than the plastic, and they seem more robust.

People talk about up-sizing the PEX size vs copper, but in my opinion that is totally unnecessary, especially for a home-run system. It's arguable that 2 fittings (manifold and stop valve) with the continuous pipe in between will flow every bit as well as copper with a dozen right angle bends. Everyone seems to forget that the end fitting is only a 3/8" stop valve, with an even smaller faucet cartridge valve. 1/2" PEX is more than enough.

The manufacturers claim that even in branch style you can replaced it size for size. I think branch installed PEX is quick, but throws away some of PEX's inherent advantages. Branch install is the only time I'd consider upsizing due to the volume of fittings used.

Get lots of bend supports and wall clips. They sell open end clips at menards that hook together to give the PEX a nice, raked looked when you run multiple lines side by side. Eventually I'll cover everything up to avoid any UV exposure, since that is one of PEX's drawbacks, but the clips help keep everything organized in my basement ceiling (up in the floor joist cavities).

For the shower valve, I used a copper riser and you need to use a copper tub stubout for proper pressure. Everything in-wall that I wouldn't be able to access again I did sweated copper. I did sweated copper drops to the basement for the shower and connected the PEX there so I had access to the crimps if there was ever an issue.

 

[siegsuwa]

Planning on using PEX A with the copper crimp fittings. Any recommendations on brands of crimpers? Masterforce/Menards, Sharkbite, IWISS, others?

Randy

Just wanted to chime in here and say that two of the Menards copper ring crimping tools broke on me with normal usage. It was pathetic. Both broke with probably less than 10-15 crimps on either of them. Same failure mode both times, the center pin sheared and sent the ends flying.

I went to Home Depot after the second tool and bought their version, which looks nearly identical except for the coloring, and it has worked without issue.

 

[DieselSJ]

I reworked the entire house a couple years back. Everything runs through the attic so it was pretty easy. I used the Uponor system where it flares the tube then it shrinks back onto the fitting. 3/4 supply in to a T that feeds the water heater, then manifolds off the main and the water heater and did home runs. I wasn't a fan of the crimp system.

 

[sberry]

There are good charts and directions online. There are a couple different distance ones that help a lot. The directions are about as good and clear as I ever saw regarding home run/branch tree. They are easy to read, you don't have to remeber a lot of complicated stuff. With thevadvent of some low flow fixtures pipe sizes have not had to increase due to additions or replacement.
I just did one with Genova to use up some stock. Runs from the water heater are short and some of it isn't mirrored. I tapped 3/4 along the way for cold, supplied a couple outdoor but hot is all 1/2 right from the heater, might have a couple th of 3/4 and a t to laundry but it's pretty thrifty.
A sink and toilet supply tubes are only 1/4 ID. There is no loss with 1/2 home runs for those and they even have Pex in 3/8 for hot to some sinks.
Some faucets do have tubes but showers, laundry faucets can run 1/2 right to them. Some restriction like tubes is good on a lot of systems, silcocks have some small ports, you really need the capacity not to drop system pressure with big valves, it's May be aided by good design and even home runs.

 

[neblinc]

Do people drill through the floor joist? If so how far apart should the holes be? Not sure if I really want to go that route, but it would look cleaner. I would need 10 holes for the cold supply and 6 for hot. Would need to drill about 8 joist to get to the center of the house, then down the middle of the joist to reach my fixtures.

I made a drawing for the home run & branch.

Randy

 

[Aaron_W]

Do people drill through the floor joist? If so how far apart should the holes be? Not sure if I really want to go that route, but it would look cleaner. I would need 10 holes for the cold supply and 6 for hot. Would need to drill about 8 joist to get to the center of the house, then down the middle of the joist to reach my fixtures.

I made a drawing for the home run & branch.

Randy

We just ran them along the bottom of the joist like the pipe we replaced. It is fairly flexible so we did run it alongside the joists in some areas of the basement to get some additional head clearance.

Drilling the joists seems like a lot of extra work, and I'm not sure what the benefit would be unless it is an area you might want to enclose in sheet rock, like a finished basement. The hangers are cheap.

 

[johnnyradiant]

......

Use a hair dryer to straighten out the coiled pipe if need be. ...

That is not how the game is played. There is a tool for that - a heat gun, and for jobs in an tight location Milwaukee has you covered they have the M18 cordless that works good on PEX jobs, and the power lock on my truck canopy that froze the other day.

 

[johninct]

When I finally replace all of my copper with PEX, I was thinking on making a 3/4" loop where most of the plumbing is located and then taping everything off of that. Would I have problems with a loop? The way my house is, it would require hardly anymore PEX, which I already purchased.

 

[Aaron_W]

When I finally replace all of my copper with PEX, I was thinking on making a 3/4" loop where most of the plumbing is located and then taping everything off of that. Would I have problems with a loop? The way my house is, it would require hardly anymore PEX, which I already purchased.

What benefit do you see this bringing?

 

[johninct]

What benefit do you see this bringing?

The way my house is laid out, I would be doing 2 1/4 sides any way.

 

[Aaron_W]

The way my house is laid out, I would be doing 2 1/4 sides any way.

I expect it would be easy enough, you could just put a T at the base of the loop and go to the inlet from there. No idea if you would find any advantage or run into problems with water flow.

Yes, it would be easy to tap into where you needed.

When you are talking about water mains, loops are good with the water coming in from two sides, I don't know if that translates into the small piping, and smaller flows of a house.

 

[jjgrappler]

Check Pexuniverse on the web, I am planning on redoing my own home which is in the same boat as yours older farm home. Plan your system and what you're going to need and checkout that site. Their ball valves and fitting are a quarter of the price of Lowes or Home Depot. I am looking at going to a manifold system due to the pressure and temperature concerns stated. Look on the forum here and someone has the pex manual for free that is awesome and should be read.

 

[Whitworth]

I abandoned the idea of using a manifold after seeing and feeling the offerings at the local big box. They were light weight copper with the *******/connectors spaced very closely together. I was afraid a small failure like a pin hole leak would be a major repair requiring replacement and re-running multiple PEX runs off the manifold.

Either build you own manifold or just skip it. In residential plumbing it’s not offering any real benefit.

 

[yeldogt]

I abandoned the idea of using a manifold after seeing and feeling the offerings at the local big box. They were light weight copper with the *******/connectors spaced very closely together. I was afraid a small failure like a pin hole leak would be a major repair requiring replacement and re-running multiple PEX runs off the manifold.

Either build you own manifold or just skip it. In residential plumbing it’s not offering any real benefit.

They make nice plastic manifolds -- some sort of nylon. No metal -- have been using the stuff for 40-50 years.

 

[sreeb]

Is 1/2 inch the way to go for all the lines?

Assuming you use a manifold, 1/2" for everything but a tub spigot.

I plan on ordering the PEX online and getting the fittings at Menards, they have a pretty good selection.

Not sure about Menards but you can buy a bag of ten generic fittings online for the price of one sharkbite brand name at HD.

 

[sreeb]

I retrofitted a double wide that had polybutylene.

I have a manifold with stops. Very handy when doing retrofit and living in the house at the same time.

Having a few press on sharkbite caps and couplers is also very handy for incremental work if they work with your existing pipes.

 

[neblinc]

I started running the lines today, boy I really hate having a crawl space. I am already sore.

 

[sreeb]

I started running the lines today, boy I really hate having a crawl space. I am already sore.

Mine was full of cholla clusters that the rats dragged in.