Installing Replacement Windows

[Dennis93]

So not sure where to post this but feel free to move it if deemed necessary.

So I'm replacing the windows in my parents house (its a 1991) with old drafty windows and I'm replacing them with Simonton 5500 Casements (pocket replacements).

My question is I have done replacement windows from the inside only before, but talking to a few people and they tell me it is ok the CUT the exterior stop out (which is between the brickmold and the window) and put the window in from the outside.

My concern is
1. Doesn't removing the exterior stop make it more prone to water getting behind the window? Isn't it a good barrier otherwise.
2. Wouldn't you have the biggest caulk line then between the window and the old window jamb.

How do you guys do it if you ever did them?

The reason I am having trouble is, is that by the time I wrap the windows, the casements are so tight that they hit the coil I wrapped it with. The coil makes the opening a little smaller since the smallest bend I can make has to be a 3/4" inch and the stop is .5" thick, which makes it a 1/4" thicker which the window keeps hitting. But I wouldn't really have this problem if I cut out the exterior stop.

So the suggestions I have received say to just cut out the exterior stop and not worry about air/water infiltration and the caulk will be fine. I'm the kind of guy that likes double and triple safeguards in place especially on something like windows with a high leak potential.

Thanks and sorry for the long rant...

 

[boo coo tracks]

I am in the looking stage myself! May I ask, how you decided on Simonton brand ?? They make a nice window. I am going to go the full encasement route, as windows are in good shape but bottoms are rotted out.
Tracks

 

[tcianci]

Not sure why you wouldn't put them in from the inside up against the blind stop (that's the name for the piece of wood that the brick mould is nailed to). If you do cut the stops away, simply replace them with 3/4 inch thick stock even if it does come up onto the brick mould. By doing that you now have a solid piece of wood for the replacement window to seal up against and you can bend your coil stock and it will fit the new, thicker stop.

 

[Big Bad Dad]

When I used to install replacement windows from outside, and cut out the stop, I would bend a 1/2" or 3/4" flange into the exterior aluminum trim. I would run a good bead of caulking on the window frame, and seal the trim to it. Start at the bottom, and overlap the trim as you work your way up to keep rainwater from infiltrating. This would effectively replace the removed exterior stop. I recommend the Duosil brand of caulking. I never had any problem with it, and it was water cleanup until it dried.

 

[CNGsaves]

If this house was built in 1991, those windows are likely new enough that they are standard sizes.

Window replacements my carpenter brother has done on our family houses
. . . . . ie he gets paid, but we get a deal
have been exterior-installed windows. Just did 8 windows at BIL house last summer and they were Anderson brand he bought from Lowes. Just take off interior and exterior trim to get back to rough window opening after taking out old window. With the fold-out metal edges these new replacement windows have, plus the foil tape, there's virtually no chance of leaks if you do it right and caulk everything afterwards.

Cutoff shims on inside after install done, and use low expanding foam for any air gaps. Re-install exterior and interior trim and you're done. Don't forget to do final caulk of exterior gaps. Let dry, then prime and paint!

 

[Dennis93]

I am in the looking stage myself! May I ask, how you decided on Simonton brand ?? They make a nice window. I am going to go the full encasement route, as windows are in good shape but bottoms are rotted out.
Tracks

Honestly, a bunch of factors.

JD Powers- you can say they pay them/they are paid but I have found out that buying stuff JD powers recommends in the past hasn't led to any problems. Same thing I am more likely to go with Consumer Reports if the other brand/item isn't but I just don't solely base it on a company's review.

I have called their customer service both times w/less than a 5 min wait and got to speak to an ACTUAL TECHNICIAN. Not ones of those idiots they pay at a call center, they connected me to a field tech that actually installed their windows and dealt with problems. They helped me fix some issues I was having dealing with install (would not have had if I was a window installer installing many of these units) mostly dealt with having to adjust the window from manufacturer specs since NONE of my frames were square and impossible to square.


I got the 5500 series, they have a 5050 which is new construction garbage almost, and the impressions 9800 which is too expensive. It's like cars, you don't want to cheap out and get a kia or hyundai, but most people don't have the money to splurge on a Lexus or Mercedes, so you go with a Toyota or Honda which will suit you just fine for the needs.


Brands I looked at I just compared one size because I have 9 that are the same size and 11 others that are different but the 9 are on the front of the house and 28(w) by 65.5(L). So pretty big.

Gorell-unavailable in area
Andersens- went down in quality and DO NOT go with Silverline by Andersens terrible windows
Sunrise-Quoted about 650 for a WINDOW no install (CRAZY) there was only one person in my area selling/installing them and they knew it.
Plygem-Asked my rep and he said most builders are going with them and he wouldn't put them in his house if he was living there for long
Marvin I heard is good but I couldn't find any local



The Simonton 5500 casements were 269 a piece, and I got 5 of those and 4 fixed at 179 a piece. I thought those prices were incredible. They are built pretty well for what I expected. The casements seal up REAL good, which is why I went with them as opposed to the DH's. Plus it looks good on the house and eliminates that sash line in the middle giving you a clear line of sight.

Sorry for long response, I spent about 2 months deciding on which window to go with and finally settled with Simonton. If you have any questions please ask, I would be more than happy to save you some time.

I attached some pics. Sorry house is dirty I didn't want to pressure wash it yet since none of the joints are caulked yet and all the old windows leaked.

 

[Dennis93]

Also not sure what you mean by full encasement? Tracks?

 

[Dennis93]

Tcianci
I was putting them from the inside up against the stop. BUT I am wrapping the windows, and after I wrap them the coil makes the opening too small for the casement to open since both sides are smaller by a ¼ “. Maybe you are thinking I have double hung’s which wouldn’t give me a problem if I did it that way. Also, when I wrap since it’s my own house I go crazy and bend the wrap behind the blind stop for extra protection! The stops are my problem….

Bigbaddad
So what did your flange rest on? The window frame? I’m guessing you didn’t nail it to the window and relied on your caulk to hold it to the window and nailed the coil to the inside of the brickmold to hold it? I am starting at the bottom and instead of cutting off the coil, cutting and bending it so that it goes behind as additional flashing precaution. Thanks for the recommendation but I have never seen/heard of that caulk around here. The pros here use OSI quad, so I already bought 2 cases of that, it’s a PITA for cleanup though but seals great.


Sadly, no they are not stock sizes I can find in a big box store, ALL are custom order. Lol. Not sure what you mean fold out metal edges, I’m thinking you used NEW Construction windows? I can’t do that as I’m in a brick veneer and no way I’m pulling all the brickmold and even then I wouldn’t have room to nail the flange.

I am using the Great stuff window and door low expanding foam though, it says it won’t bend/warp vinyl windows.

 

[IHI]

I never bothered taking close up pics of all the window jobs we did but i'll "try" to explain it.

1. Simonton is a very good brand, I took on a vendor that offered them and a host of other's I could'nt get locally after I kept hearing good things about them from other contractors on my contractor forums. I would say they're mid-high end, and priced well for all the features you get...so no worries there.

2. You can install pocket replacement from inside or outside...biggest factor that made the decsion for me was ease of installation. Some older homes and some tract homes had a multiple piece interior trim set that finished off original opening..many of those were either original stain that was very dry, or multiple layers of paint, and wood was also very dry...so on these types of installs it made more sense to do all the work from the exterior so as not to booger up the interior trim and be forced to deal with that, 99% of our window jobs all got capped anyhow, so I was'nt concerned about ripping and installing new exterior stops after window was in. As far as installation of window, obviously doing it all from interior side is easier.

3. Some of the older homes do in fact have a "wider" exterior stop...and this will throw an inexperienced persons measurements off. When i was a kid and sub contracted, it only took about 5 jobs salespukes measured before i told owner of that company, either i measure the jobs i will do, or i'm done...salespukes that did'nt know how to measure cost me alot of time and the owner alot of money when things did'nt work out right.

If your capwork will be overhanging the frame and intruding into the sash opening...obviously that's a no go. Best bet is to chisel the side stops off flush with frame, leave the top stop in place so long as it does'nt intrude onto sash. you can then do a zig zag of caulk on top of window, stick the cut batt insulation to the caulk and lift window into place and push bottom in. OR remove all the stops and redo them all.

Doing a 1/2" bend in the middle of a capped piece is tough, but if your using a tapco brake it will do 1/2", we did them all the time. If you dont feel comfortable/confident doing it all in one shot, do a 2 piece trim piece. Bend a piece that goes from house, out to face of brickmold, across brickmold, back towards exterior stop, and then a flange that goes across face of exterior stop...see if i can do a diagram with lines
! __
! !
!_______!

Then do a seperate exterior stop cap piece in a typical L shape

Just like alot of things, there's a bunch of different ways to skin a cat, and every situation, esspeically with doors and window replacement...EVERY situation is a scenario unto itself.


EDIT- and while I do like new construct windows, when retrofitting new construct into an older home it takes ALOT of extra time and alot of extra material to make the job look as it should and most importantly, which 99% of homeowners NEVER do when they pick up a new construct window to "fix" a broken old window, they never properly flash it right, and when they're done it screams look at me, i dont match anything else on the house because the guy did'nt know what he was doing.

 

[Dennis93]

Thanks for the great information! It was very detailed. So now for some questions

You said to chisel off the side stops, but once they are chiseled off I will have about a 1/2 gap atleast between the window and the brickmold. Did you just caulk that big a gap? Doesn't it look hideous with such a big wide caulk line?

I was going to use the non expanding spray foam as it also makes it a water barrier, are you advising to go with batts and not use spray foam?

Maybe your Tapco brake did them, but my width of my bending plate (hinge to the stainless steel bending plate is just shy of 3/4". It's an old Port O Brake with the friction lever on the side. Drives me crazy every time my piece moves.

GREAT idea of doing two pieces! I wouldn't have thought of that in like ever. When you explain it (piece from house to face of brickmold, did you actually bend the side that touches brickmold to brick behind the brickmold as extra flashing. Meaning did you go between the brickmold and the brick with your coil. I was just putting a hem on that side for rigidity and so I don't cut myself when caulking all the joints. So I have seen some crappy jobs done by so called professionals that buckle all over. I so far am only using one nail on the top of each side of the brickmold covered by the top piece. And then two piece at the top piece right into the brickmold so only 2 nails are visible. I have the bottom sill coil covering it in a U shape since I replace the whole sill so no nails there. I didn't want to use too many, but am I using too few. My reasoning is once the window is in place, the way I was bending to to between the stop and window, and the caulk with hold it all together just fine and not blow off in like a hurricane or something.

Honestly,

Thank you SO MUCH for your info, most trim/coil guys don't share their info and I can see why but most around here aren't that good IMO, which is why I said I'll attempt it myself since they're jobs buckle all over too. Also they just bend L shapes, they wouldn't bend the profile like I am doing unless they are getting paid a lot more. Atleast the big box window companies around here just do an L shape covering the stop and brickmold in one giant L shape, and leaves much to be desired in terms of visual appeal.

 

[IHI]

I should've looked at your pics and used that for my exact example lol, i just used a typical wood framed house.

Your situation when surrounded by brick on all sides, I just make an L shaped piece, but I do a hem joint along the edge that butts up against the brick. You need to measure and add an extra 3/4" to your layout on your pieces, put that piece in the brake so the 3/4" lines are on the jaw, and bend it allll the way up, well past 90*. Remove the piece from the brake, and no with nothing in the brake, close/lock it shut (as if you had a piece in there ready to bend) now set the piece with the J looking joint onto the shelf of the brake jaw, and then lift the bending mechanism up and close that hem joint tight.

Folding it over on itself along the edge gives is a wrinkle free and very stiff edge to **** up against the brick, and then use a good quality caulk..NOT SILICONE to seal any gaps between the cap work and the brick...silicone attracts dirt quickly and also quickly loses adhesion on cap work and esspecially vinyl windows.

When we did double hungs I prefered to use fiberglass batt, I cut it into 1" strips and then used a putty knife to press it into the gap between the new window window and existing wood frame. Double hungs need to be "shimmed" along the edges to ensure a tight seal all the way around, and using batts as insulation and also "shims" to pack in along window to bring the frame tighter to the sash so no air comes in around it. Your doing casements, best window design as far as sealing since the harder the wind blows, the tighter the seal becomes..only downfall as we all know, mechanical parts, and all mechanical parts are prone to wear/tear/breaking LOL. But your fine using low expansion foam since the seal goes against the inside face of the sash as the primary seal, and you have the allergen seal around the outside perimeter f the sash..the white hairey stuff. so your good, no worries there...again, different ways to skin a cat and some methods made more sense in the feild PER job.

As for chieseling the stop...technically the only ones I ever had issue with an open gap when I chiseled old stops off were on old original wooden casements, but all the typical double hungs we could chisel the stops off and they became flush with the existing wood frame, and you have to install new stops anyhow, so it's not a big deal if at first you see a big gap. More than once when we had the gap issues after chiseling them off, I would just rip some 1x down to the thickness i needed, and instead of doing the typical 1/2" x 3/4" exterior stop, I would do a 1/2" x 3" stop and then just jump the capwork over and make a simple U or L shaped piece of cap depending on situation.

As to your brake...it's obviously better than nothing, esspecially when you probably dont use it daily. We were on a job doing something else and a sub had his brake like your out so I used it to bend some flashing...what a POS it was after using our Pro III for so may years LOL. Really made me appreciate my brakes...but just know, it CAN be done, it's a technique thing is all. The hinged side of your brake is slotted so it can travel in an arch per say. To do those small 1/2" bends you have to manually lift the section up first, and THEN start your bend...you cant just start the bend with the handles facing the ground like a normal bend. You have to lift it up first and handles will be kinda pointing behind you a bit and then you start the lift.

Do i do it much (1/2" bends, heeeelll to the no, they **** LOL) but I had my gramps show my how and it's been a handy thing to know in a few situations.

 

[Dennis93]

Thank you ever so much IHI for all the help. I am thankful beyond words. I didn't hem the first 2 but I hemmed the others and they are SO much stronger and don't just ripple and rattle when you shake them.

Yea, I'm looking into getting a brake for the weekend(rental) so I can do all the trim and fascia around my house. DEFINITELY not trying to do that on my 6 ft friction break. The local rental place will let me have it from Sat morn at 7 to Monday morn at 7 for just $55. Not bad at all considering how much I'd have to pay for someone to bend it.

 

[IHI]

Yeah for $55 you can't go wrong