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Installing your own ac system

TTMotorsports

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Been getting quotes on ac install and these guys are nuts with 200% markup on equipment and crazy costs to run ducting. Anyone on here have a source for ducting and the like in Phoenix area. I'll be getting 2 5 ton packaged ac units and will be running my own ducting from them into the shop. Having trouble finding companies that will sell to me not being an hvac contractor.

Thanks.
 
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davo727

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LOL, in this other thread: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=425107

I raised excessive labor issue, some guys think 6200 labor to put in a 3000$ system is just the way its gonna be. But anyway if you really end up not finding suppliers to sell to you locally im sure you can find it online and have it shipped to a freight terminal for you to pick up.
 

mike93lx

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You can't tie a shop/garage into a home system, in case that is what you are talking about. Fumes/odors/CO have to be separated.

Sheet metal work is expensive, and for good reason. It isn't simple
 

OccupantRJ

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Several online places to buy Goodman units. They will liftgate deliver to your place or you can pick up at a local terminal. You need pro install to get warranty. I said screw it and bought one for $1850 and installed my own unit on the house on existing duct system. Even bought a manometer to check system duct pressures. On the shop, I had a used unit that I installed. I bought round duct and reducers in the proper sizes after making calculations for flow, installed, sealed, and insulated it for around $500. I have as much duct in my shop as a small house, with 10 outlets. Round duct is easy to make up outside, seal, and partially insulate if you can feed sections underneath the house feasibly. This was my third install for myself as a hobbyist. Hardest part is working underneath a house.
 

OccupantRJ

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You can buy all the duct parts you need online, but as someone mentioned, don’t make the garage part of the house system. Not a safe thing to do due to fumes and carbon monoxide poisoning.
 
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koenbro

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Just put in a mini- split tor the garage. Vastly more efficient. No ducting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Falcon67

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Been getting quotes on ac install and these guys are nuts with 200% markup on equipment and crazy costs to run ducting. Anyone on here have a source for ducting and the like in Phoenix area. I'll be getting 2 5 ton packaged ac units and will be running my own ducting from them into the shop. Having trouble finding companies that will sell to me not being an hvac contractor.

Thanks.

Normal. You have to be licensed here to buy AC equipment from a supply house. Unless you "know someone" of course. The big deal really is that pretty much all AC mfgs won't honor any warranty unless the system is installed by a qualified contractor. So you may well find someone to bring it on line after you get it all nailed up for the trip charge + hourly rate + materials. But if it breaks, you'll buy another.

The recommendation for the mini-split is good because a lot of those are DIY and you still get the warranty.

Do I know how AC works - yes. Could I have installed our new 3.5 ton Ruud - sure. I even have a friend that does sheetmetal, custom ducting. Not that we needed ducts since this was a replacement. $6800 installed by a local pro and we got all the warranties. Money well spent.
 
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dcg9381

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This is for my 50x80 shop not connected to house at all. 2 5 ton units.

40x60x16 shop here. Not connected to the house. 3-3.5" of open cell foam. Texas (pretty substantial climate). Running 2 x 2 ton units ductless via DIY install.
Total cost $2200-2400.

I found that HVAC installs are basically 2-3x markup. Even in my state, you're paying for HVAC license and the relationship / training with the supplier. But gets you a warranty and a **** to kick if things are wrong.

There's a thread on a DIY HVAC (ducted) install here - basically what you're talking about doing. The skill seems to be in making the lines, flaring the lines, and dealing with the refrigerant - if you can find someone that will do that for you, you're in business. Lots of places to buy HVAC "wholesale", but don't expect any support/warranty.
 

Dick in Wisconsin

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I have a friend in the Austin, TX area who races SCCA and knows lots of the racers. He is installing mini-splits right and left in race shops, garages, and offices.

So many of the trades "look easy" and we wonder why the "markup" is so high. But I don't think that is necessarily the case. The prices we're quoted typically have the costs of an experienced technician, periodic training, shop/warehouse, truck loaded with tools and spare parts, an inventory of units, parts, and stuff, truck insurance, liability insurance, workman's comp insurance, health/dental insurance for technician for his or her family, some kind of contribution to a retirement plan, vacation, and the list goes on.
 

ant.foste

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Been getting quotes on ac install and these guys are nuts with 200% markup on equipment and crazy costs to run ducting. Anyone on here have a source for ducting and the like in Phoenix area. I'll be getting 2 5 ton packaged ac units and will be running my own ducting from them into the shop. Having trouble finding companies that will sell to me not being an hvac contractor.

Thanks.

You have ACWholesalers(?) right in Phoenix on the south side of I-10 around Central or the I-17 spur for purchasing the units themselves. https://www.acwholesalers.com/

For sheet metal and other HVAC things in Phoenix, I've used this company before on Washington Street http://www.csamco.com/ and there's another company I also liked but I can't remember the name.
 
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dcg9381

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So many of the trades "look easy" and we wonder why the "markup" is so high. But I don't think that is necessarily the case.

I generally agree. I looked into what it would take to become an licensed HVAC tech in Texas. It's about like becoming an electrician - basically you need to work under someone with a license for years (at whatever that pay rate is, but it doesn't look great). So there is a barrier to entry and a bit of closed market right there...

Manufacturers require training in their products, certification, often put price restrictions. I don't think it's a business that you can easily reduce margin on - minimally, it's going to be years of training under someone before you can sit for a test.

To some degree, it's "closed market". Manufacturers that are providing end home owners with DIY warrantied product are essentially making a new product, so be glad we have that.
 

86turbodsl

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I have a friend in the Austin, TX area who races SCCA and knows lots of the racers. He is installing mini-splits right and left in race shops, garages, and offices.

So many of the trades "look easy" and we wonder why the "markup" is so high. But I don't think that is necessarily the case. The prices we're quoted typically have the costs of an experienced technician, periodic training, shop/warehouse, truck loaded with tools and spare parts, an inventory of units, parts, and stuff, truck insurance, liability insurance, workman's comp insurance, health/dental insurance for technician for his or her family, some kind of contribution to a retirement plan, vacation, and the list goes on.

Just to play devils advocate here: A counterpoint. You may be paying a 2-3X markup on HVAC with the assumption you're getting the warranty and experience, but the reality is, that HVAC techs dont really get paid very much, which doesn't attract top talent and lots of installs are fubar'd right from the get go. Most people know this, and lots of us, me included, are VERY reluctant to pay some guy 10K to screw up an install when we know we're going to be fighting about it anyway. Thus the rise of the DIY movement. Me AND my brother have dealt with this issue multiple times.
 

SGKent

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you will need a EPA Section 608 certificate to buy and handle the refrigerant. I would get a bid that includes your labor to do the things you can and are licensed to. That said - in my trade I can make more money by NOT doing the HVAC work myself, contracting it out, and concentrating on my trade and clients. If you think you might enjoy working on HVAC why not take a course at a local junior college and start working towards a career in it.
 

davo727

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The original poster has mentioned several times these are packaged units. So will be factory charged with refrigerant. So mainly he needs to set them , wire them and duct them.
 

Notgrownup

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I was just looking at alpinehomeair site and they sell the units, ducting and accessories...they have Blueridge, goodman and direct comfort...
 

OccupantRJ

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Here are a few pics I found of my shop install with a lightly used unit that a friend gave me. I strapped the insulation with nylon strapping to help prevent insulation issues later. The ducts were also sealed with brush on sealer. I incorporated the return into a base cabinet which now holds a set of drawers and my surface plate for machining.
 

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meathooker

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Just to play devils advocate here: A counterpoint. You may be paying a 2-3X markup on HVAC with the assumption you're getting the warranty and experience, but the reality is, that HVAC techs dont really get paid very much, which doesn't attract top talent and lots of installs are fubar'd right from the get go. Most people know this, and lots of us, me included, are VERY reluctant to pay some guy 10K to screw up an install when we know we're going to be fighting about it anyway. Thus the rise of the DIY movement. Me AND my brother have dealt with this issue multiple times.

Hvac techs make a very good living and I would make a case that there are a lot of extremely talented people in the trade.

In regards to the markup if you take the equipment times 2-3 that does get you in the ballpark for job pricing. After permits, labor, consumables, insurance costs etc the true net profit of most mechanical contractors is 3-5%.

Exactly. Packaged unit not a split. Set packaged on slab. Cut holes. Run wire. Run ducting and save 5k

You could say that for pretty much anything you buy if you are crafty. Hell I bought a decent NC tubing bender and notcher and paid for it on a single Rzr cage.
 
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Notgrownup

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Here are a few pics I found of my shop install with a lightly used unit that a friend gave me. I strapped the insulation with nylon strapping to help prevent insulation issues later. The ducts were also sealed with brush on sealer. I incorporated the return into a base cabinet which now holds a set of drawers and my surface plate for machining.

Sweet deal...
 

PoorOwner

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I think the HVAC company "owner" (the boss) holds the license and maintain bonds and insurances etc.

But the workers that comes out are not (necessarily) licensed? They would / should have EPA certification to handle the refrigerant.

am I right?
 

86turbodsl

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Hvac techs make a very good living and I would make a case that there are a lot of extremely talented people in the trade.

Maybe they do where you live. Here, not so much. My guy went out of business and didn't bid his jobs way up either. He's a friend, so i got the inside scoop. The other ones i've dealt with, didn't seem too high end to me.

My brother had his fair share of bad installs too. And that included factory reps on Daikin equipment and botched installs in another very AC centric market.

So far, we're batting 0%.
 

htmdude57

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I was just looking at alpinehomeair site and they sell the units, ducting and accessories...they have Blueridge, goodman and direct comfort...

I too have been perusing the Alpine Home Air site, and trying to get up the nerve to buy. They do want you to get a pro to install, or finish the installation. They offer a service where they will "find" a local company for you, however, I don't know if they just go to "yelp" in your town an give you the names that you could get the same way? I think they claim to call the companies and ask them to call you? Has anyone used this "service"?
 

Notgrownup

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I too have been perusing the Alpine Home Air site, and trying to get up the nerve to buy. They do want you to get a pro to install, or finish the installation. They offer a service where they will "find" a local company for you, however, I don't know if they just go to "yelp" in your town an give you the names that you could get the same way? I think they claim to call the companies and ask them to call you? Has anyone used this "service"?

I just did a mini split from there, really nice, super quiet. The local installer they had listed , I called and he didn’t want to do the job. I got another guy to do it..
 

mrobins297aaa

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I think the HVAC company "owner" (the boss) holds the license and maintain bonds and insurances etc.

But the workers that comes out are not (necessarily) licensed? They would / should have EPA certification to handle the refrigerant.

am I right?

your right, I'd say most workers would not have a license but by law they half to have the epa cert to work on the equipment.

I have seen companies that a employee may be the one with the license, I'm not sure what kind of deal they may have had with the owner but they carried the license for the company.
 
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TTMotorsports

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Got all my measurements and drew out my ducting plan. I have emailed 3 duct supply companies here that I found as well as a sheetmetal hvac shop for quotes on all of that. If I can get all of the pieces I can out it together no problem. Its definitely not rocket science.
 

Roundhouse

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Hvac techs make a very good living and I would make a case that there are a lot of extremely talented people in the trade.



In regards to the markup if you take the equipment times 2-3 that does get you in the ballpark for job pricing. After permits, labor, consumables, insurance costs etc the true net profit of most mechanical contractors is 3-5%.







You could say that for pretty much anything you buy if you are crafty. Hell I bought a decent NC tubing bender and notcher and paid for it on a single Rzr cage.



In Atlanta the hvac techs get paid about $12-15 and hour
While the company charges $95-110 an hour

And usually want $4000 labor to do a change out , replacing a existing system using your existing ductwork

Takes a Tech and helper about 10 hours , unit costs $1800
It’s a nice biz that’s makes $4k profit for one day with a $15 hr tech and a $8 hr helper and an old worn out van

Plus the tech that came out to work on your broken unit get a very nice sales commission if he talks you into a new unit instead of repairing the old one
 

Showkey

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Used alpine air 10-11 years ago to purchase two furnaces for my home. One furnace and AC unit for a friends home . Both were delivered FEDEX two day service. We DIY installs, Both installs went perfect and are still in use today.

The AC was precharged, we did excavation etc.

Internet changed the HVAC biz.......... alot like the auto part biz where you paid full retail ( 100-150% market up ) for OEM parts because it was your only choice. Dealers are now willing to discount parts and send them great distances for 10-15% market-up.

This topic has come up a dozens times in the last few years. Some say there’s no warranty........check Alpine site. The furnaces were so inexpensive you could buy 3-5 furnaces for the price of one HVAC install. Install one and use the other two parts and still money ahead. :lol_hitti

One HUGE caution........stay within your skill set and or have some one check your work. It’s possible to really F this up, burn the house down, CO poison yourself or other etc . Do the install and pay and permit the final checks and start up ?????

As for EPA certified.......at one time it was online open book test. That’s how I got mine 30 years ago.


The HVAC ( shop) pay for techs is the same as an auto dealer or any other service. The dealers in both cases have building, inventory, tools, equipment, training, support, service, warranty, insurance, trucks, overhead, profit etc etc. So the auto dealers tech can moon light for cheaper labor or the car owner can DIY labor their car if they both accept the risks.
 
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86turbodsl

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your right, I'd say most workers would not have a license but by law they half to have the epa cert to work on the equipment.

It is trivially easy to get a 608 cert for anyone interested. I did it in an afternoon. I wouldn't call it a big barrier to entry.
 

davo727

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Yes a new day has dawned where the warranty is too expensive to bother with. I will be doing my own installs.



Some say there’s no warranty........check Alpine site. The furnaces were so inexpensive you could buy 3-5 furnaces for the price of one HVAC install. Install one and use the other two parts and still money ahead. :lol_hitti
 

Showkey

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Yes a new day has dawned where the warranty is too expensive to bother with. I will be doing my own installs.

The question that regularly comes up is there a warranty on the parts witha DIY install..........prior discussions on the topic were all over the board.


Not all that much different on the shingle warranty on DIY roof........and the roofing numbers could be easily be $20-30k.
 
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SGKent

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As for EPA certified.......at one time it was online open book test. That’s how I got mine 30 years ago.


I think that is the Section 609 mobile ac test. The Section 608 test is different. You can go to a one day seminar to pass if you have a basic understanding from what I read. The problem I see here is greater than just buy, deliver, and DIY. Everything made today is made with a shelf and use life. Knowing what is wearing the best these days is the hard part. From what I have seen on some HVAC forums I'd say many of the techs don't care about how long something works as long as the label says the part will fit for the same application. It is like some aftermarket axles and CV's I bought for an Acura once. The aftermarket one broke 100' out of the driveway due to a casting flaw. A genuine Honda remanufactured unit was 20% more expensive but lasted another 30,000 miles before the car was totaled by a guy who was shaving in his rear view mirror, driving with his knees, and didn't see us ahead of him. Knowing what HVAC system will last 15 years is the hard part. If you pay 1/3 the price but have to replace it 3X as often you saved nothing.
 

meathooker

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In Atlanta the hvac techs get paid about $12-15 and hour
While the company charges $95-110 an hour

And usually want $4000 labor to do a change out , replacing a existing system using your existing ductwork

Takes a Tech and helper about 10 hours , unit costs $1800
It’s a nice biz that’s makes $4k profit for one day with a $15 hr tech and a $8 hr helper and an old worn out van

Plus the tech that came out to work on your broken unit get a very nice sales commission if he talks you into a new unit instead of repairing the old one

Those rates are hard to believe - especially in a big city like that.

In our neck of the woods techs make $28/hr on the check plus a benefit package of around $16/hr
 

mrobins297aaa

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It is trivially easy to get a 608 cert for anyone interested. I did it in an afternoon. I wouldn't call it a big barrier to entry.

yeah they have made it pretty easy to get.

I have a 608 universal cert that I've had since 1994 it was a little harder to get than, there was no internet and they gave out the test at a HVAC supply house so you had to be some what involved with the trade.
 

mrobins297aaa

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what I can't believe is that the government hasn't somehow got involved and figured out a way to make money off of it, like making you pay a fee to renew your certification every year. There really slipping.
 

Roundhouse

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what I can't believe is that the government hasn't somehow got involved and figured out a way to make money off of it, like making you pay a fee to renew your certification every year. There really slipping.



Yeah
I also have an erosion control certification that is required if you disturb More than an acre of dirt
and it has to be renewed every year

We never disturb that much but we do a lot of trenching and some excavation so I have it anyway
 
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