To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Instant reverse with a VFD?

OccupantRJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
11,515
Location
Eastern North Carolina
I am considering using several VFD units on my equipment instead of the existing rotary phase converter that I have. I like instant reverse for tapping operations. The CNC lathes at work use some sort of braking resistor to achieve this situation. Has anyone with a home brew setup been able to achieve instant reverse, without coast down time, and without the VFD tripping? The CNC lathes we have instant reverse seamlessly, and can change speeds while doing so.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

lametec

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
2,099
Location
Michigan
It's not instant like it is with manual controls, but the end result is the same, more or less.

VFDs will use the breaking resistor to slow the motor below a threshold, then apply reverse voltage.
 

bjcouche

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
509
Location
Ohio
The below is assuming you are trying to place a VFD on the spindle of a knee mill for example.
OK, I have an extensive experience with VFD's as I've programmed, repaired and installed them in a previous job. First let me say that there is no such thing as "instant". What might seem like an instant forward to reverse change might be a .1s deceleration followed by a .1second acceleration in the opposite direction, or even faster.
OK, most older milling machines that I've seen that operate the motor directly on 3 phase without a VFD just open the forward contactor and then close the reverse contactor to change direction. This is called plugging the motor and causes excessive heating in the motor. If the motor is not specifically designed for this and you do it too many times in succession, you'll burn the motor up.
Next if you have VFD on your motor, and you press the change direction button, the vfd slows the motor down by reducing the voltage and frequency. When it gets to a stop it then accelerates in the opposite direction by increasing the voltage and frequency in the opposite direction. The whole process could take seconds or tenths of a second.
For those a bit more theory oriented:
When you start a motor across the line with a starter, the motor torque available is defined by the motor's speed / torque curve and can initially be 60% or less depending on motor design. All the while drawing 6-10X rated current. So during most of the acceleration time you have less than 100% torque available but you are drawing huge amounts of current. Where's all that power going? Heat in the motor.
When you start a motor on a VFD, the VFD accelerates the motor by increasing the voltage in proportion to the current and always keeps the motor below it's "breakdown torque" limit. By doing so the motor has 150-200% torque (possibly more depending on motor design) available for the entire time it's accelerating. All the while drawing no more than 150-200% of rated current.
Thus a VFD is THE fastest way to switch directions. A drawback is that when you are decelerating, the mechanical energy has to go somewhere, since it's not going into heating the motor. It increases the DC bus voltage of the VFD and the VFD must either slow down slower than the mechanical losses in the system or have some way to "waste" the energy. To waste the energy it can utilize a "Braking Resistor" to convert the regenerated energy into heat.
Example of a VFD advantage: I worked on a large fan application on a VFD that also had an across the line starter to be used in the event the VFD failed. This fan was a 400HP 4000V unit and it had a LOT of inertia. I program, tune and set up the VFD to operate the fan motor. I set the motor current limit to 100% and the accel time to 10 seconds. Starting the VFD, the motor accelerates up to speed in 10 seconds while staying under 100% current and 100% torque. Next step was to start the fan across the line to verify that it starts across the line as well. The starter picks up, draws 10X (1000%) rated current and starts accelerating. At 15 seconds later the motor has accelerated up to about 80% of full speed when the motor overload trips. The cause was the fact that the motor speed torque curve had significantly less than 100% torque until the motor got to 90% of full speed.

In summary, With a properly set up VFD and braking resistor connected to the VFD, A VFD will allow significantly faster direction changes than even plugging the motor would. It allows the motor to produce twice the torque (or more) than plugging the motor would.

Brian
 
OP
O

OccupantRJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
11,515
Location
Eastern North Carolina
Brian, this level of info is what I was looking for. Thank you for taking the time to post real world experience. Do you have a good method of determining type and size of the braking resistor, or will that info be in the literature for the particular VFD? My son gave me a salvaged Reliance VFD, but with other projects in play, it was placed on my storage shelf until later. In any case, whether it is suitable or not, I will be eventually using VFD's to run my Bridgeport and lathe, buying new if needed. Any recommendations on good, relatively inexpensive units for sub 3 horsepower applications? Lathe is 2 hp, Bridgeport is 1.5.
 
Last edited:
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

bjcouche

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
509
Location
Ohio
Which reliance drive model number do you have? If it's a GV3000 it's a good performing drive, SP500, not so much. My experience is mostly limited to Allen Bradley and Reliance drives. If you are looking at a good high performance VFD drive and are serious about tapping, I would recommend the Powerflex 70EC. they aren't cheap but they do perform very well and have internal braking IGBT's, so all you'll need is the braking resistor. You can also get small "internal" resistors that mount inside the drive but I've found that external ones are cheaper anyhow. A Powerflex 700 or 700S would be even better performance but at significant cost over even the Powerflex 70, and your mills transmission probablly couldn't handle the torque impluses due to gear backlash anyhow.
Here's a link to an Allen Bradley site describing how to size braking resistors:
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/at/pflex-at001_-en-p.pdf

IF you already have a drive on a machine you can simply TEST the inertia of the system instead of trying to calculate it. Set the torque limit (not current limit) in the drive to 50% for example. Press start and time how many seconds it takes to accelerate to full speed. Then divide your time by 2 since you used 50% torque. You can use lower or higher torques to get a measurable time. When you're done you can always set torque limit back to 150-200% for the shortest accel times. Oh, and try at different speeds, most likely the highest inertia will be in high gear with the head spinning at highest rpm for a knee mill example.

For advice on buying 5hp and smaller VFD's, I'd stay away from E-bay and such unless you know exactly what they are selling. For simple start/ stop/ reversing and variable speed control, you can't beat the prices of the automation direct VFD's.http://www.automationdirect.com However based on their specs they would not be suitable for high performance tapping. A V/Hz type drive is not suitable for high speed accel rates due to poor torque performance near zero speed. You want a "Sensorless Vector" type drive and maybe even a "Vector" drive with a speed feedback device (encoder) on the motor. Some of the Hitachi drive on Automation Direct might support this but I've only used the Hitachi drives once and had difficulty understand the user manual.

Brian
 
OP
O

OccupantRJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
11,515
Location
Eastern North Carolina
Well, so much for the freebie. The Reliance is a GP2100, but it is a GU21003, which appears to be a 3 phase input unit, and I need 240 volt single phase input. More reading and shopping to be done.
 

bjcouche

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
509
Location
Ohio
The GP2000 series of drives is quite old too. I would certainly not recommend buying one but if the price was free it's certainly worth hanging on to. Another thought is that sometimes these older drives can be sold on e-bay to companies that want spare drives. If they have a dozen or more of them and know how to work with them, they usually don't want to upgrade 1 or 2 when they fail and then have a mix of different models. Sometimes you can sell the old obsolete equipment and buy new VFD's for less then you've sold the obsolete stuff for. Drives that sold for thousands 10 years ago now sell for a couple hundred today and have much better performance and are much more user friendly.

Also keep in mind that a lot of drives in the sub 5hp size can be operated on single phase even if they are a 3 phase input. Sometimes there's a note in the user manual on this and sometimes not. Basically you have to derate the drive about 50% though. For example, use a 3HP drive on a 1.5hp motor. This is because there is an input current limitation per phase and now you only have single phase. The drive will take the single phase input and create the 3 phase output for the motor. You do however have to get a 240V unit to run on 240V.

Brian
 

eriksalo

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
184
Location
Colorado
I know this thread is about VFD's but I believe to really do "in and out" tapping is more complex then just reversing the motor. The drive system needs to coordinate the rotation with the Z axis motion. This feature is called "ridid tapping."

I suspect you can't implement "rigid tapping" just with a VFD.

Instead, have you looked at something called a REVERSIBLE TAPPING HEAD? Something like these?




I've used these both on milling machines and on drill presses and they work great.

Erik
 
OP
O

OccupantRJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
11,515
Location
Eastern North Carolina
I know this thread is about VFD's but I believe to really do "in and out" tapping is more complex then just reversing the motor. The drive system needs to coordinate the rotation with the Z axis motion. This feature is called "ridid tapping."

I suspect you can't implement "rigid tapping" just with a VFD.

Instead, have you looked at something called a REVERSIBLE TAPPING HEAD? Something like these?




I've used these both on milling machines and on drill presses and they work great.

Erik

I can blind bottom tap on the Bridgeport, in back gear, using plug reverse. No need for a tapping head unless I was going to do production tapping. In fact I have tap heads in my home shop and don't use them, as I have no need to. I have removed the quill return spring on my work Bridgeport over 20 years ago, to allow more feel for quill related operations. No need to time the Z with spindle rotation, as the tap does that for you. What you have described seems to be a lead screw tapper. All I need to be able to do is rest assured that the spindle reverses exactly when I want it to, with no lag time to have to compensate for. I can handle the rest, as I've been at it a while.
 
Last edited:
OP
O

OccupantRJ

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
11,515
Location
Eastern North Carolina
The GP2000 series of drives is quite old too. I would certainly not recommend buying one but if the price was free it's certainly worth hanging on to. Another thought is that sometimes these older drives can be sold on e-bay to companies that want spare drives. If they have a dozen or more of them and know how to work with them, they usually don't want to upgrade 1 or 2 when they fail and then have a mix of different models. Sometimes you can sell the old obsolete equipment and buy new VFD's for less then you've sold the obsolete stuff for. Drives that sold for thousands 10 years ago now sell for a couple hundred today and have much better performance and are much more user friendly.

Also keep in mind that a lot of drives in the sub 5hp size can be operated on single phase even if they are a 3 phase input. Sometimes there's a note in the user manual on this and sometimes not. Basically you have to derate the drive about 50% though. For example, use a 3HP drive on a 1.5hp motor. This is because there is an input current limitation per phase and now you only have single phase. The drive will take the single phase input and create the 3 phase output for the motor. You do however have to get a 240V unit to run on 240V.

Brian

Now that you mention it, seems like my son alluded to the fact that the drive might be run in a derated mode using only single phase. I'll see if I can download a manual for the unit and read up on it.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom