insteon link questions

[artieb]

Hi, I want to be sure that these devices will do what I need them to do.
Insteon keypadlink 2487S switch to control switchlink relay 2475 SDB?
I believe they use existing house wiring, that hopefully will be able to control outlets in any of my 3 outbuildings? What would be some common issues that not be able to do this?
Could 2 keypadlink s be used to control the same switch link relay?
Am I correct or incorrect in any of my ideas?
thanks Artie

 

[ishiboo]

Hi, I want to be sure that these devices will do what I need them to do.
Insteon keypadlink 2487S switch to control switchlink relay 2475 SDB?

Yes.

I believe they use existing house wiring, that hopefully will be able to control outlets in any of my 3 outbuildings? What would be some common issues that not be able to do this?

The distance may or may not be an issue. How far apart are they? What electrically are they separated by?

My barn is 100' from the my house. It is about 200' of wire, through two meters. The Insteon signal makes it to the barn, but it is not reliable... it will sometimes take several presses to do so.

The RF devices in perfect conditions will do small distances, 100-150' in open air. You basically need to mount them on a box outside facing each other though to cover it.

Could 2 keypadlink s be used to control the same switch link relay?

Yes. A device can have something like 255 links, so it could be controlled by up to 255 devices.

 

[artieb]

Thanks Ishiboo, I went and measured to be sure.
my only meter is where all my feeds originate from.
100' from meter to house.
80' or less, from meter to 3 outbuildings.
all measurements are in underground cable.
The longest run between any 2 buildings is 200'. FYI all my feeds are in shielded cable.
Any other concern I would like to know before I try to do this?
Thanks again Artie

 

[artieb]

I have been doing more homework on trying to remote control outlets.
Has anyone used the Insteon 2245 222 hub?
I have also been trying to find what are the operating temperature of the 2663 222 on/off outlet? I would like to use this on my outside power panel, as an outlet, as well as a repeater.
The outlet is rated for 15 amps, but the incandescent rating is 600 watts.
My primary function would be to remote control a block heater that is 750 watts.
Any experience with the hub on an Android device?

 

[jgorm]

I have a fairly extensive insteon setup (30+ devices), controlled by a ISY (universal devices). I can run programs, and turn stuff on and off from my phone. The insteon hub ***** from what I hear. The isy is cool and I have tons of programs to do different things like shut off all the upstairs lights when the outside light switch is off, and I press the off button.

If the remote locations are on the same phase, then it should work. If they are not, then the RF will probably not work. The thing with insteon is the more switches you have, the better the system works. This site has the best info. http://forum.universal-devices.com/index.php?sid=5cb79263a5f916e6e976ea5ea7f0bff7

 

[artieb]

Thanks jgorm, I'm trying to get my head wrapped around how this all works together.
There is a wire Frequency that goes to and from each device on either leg of 240 and in addition another radio frequency:
Transmitt and recieve each device?
Only keypad to all devices? Specified device then repeated, wire and wireless?
The new hub advertise s a range of 250' wire or wireless range?
I did check out your link which may have confused me more, I'm becoming a Desoto in a Toyota world. Thanks Artie

 

[jgorm]

Each dual band device is a repeater. If it gets a RF signal (because it's on the other phase) then it will send out another RF signal as well as the power line signal. Same thing if it gets a power line signal, it will send out a RF signal. They can do 3 "hops" before the signal dies. There is no way in hell that the RF will go 250'. I had trouble getting motion sensors (RF only) to work 20' away (but through the stucco, inside switch to outside motion sensor). not all devices are dual band, so try and buy dual band. motion sensors, led bulbs, and some plug in devices are single band. Most light switches are dual band.

 

[artieb]

I have jumped in, and ordered a 2245 222 hub and 2 outlets, 2663 222, all dual band.
I have the luxury of a lot of empty spaces in my outbuildings, either side of the neutral.
The hub sends both wired and wireless signals. I don't have much AC cable distance to go, however my house is like a lead vault as far as RF.
I have 120.00 investment with minimal expectations. If i can remote a dual band outlet at 180' , same phase, with a dual band repeater in the middle. I am satisfied, and any future devices will be gravy. IE motion sensors, timed yard light, camera, etc.
Thanks to all in helping me understand, as well as future questions for everyone else. Artie

 

[ishiboo]

I have a fairly extensive insteon setup (30+ devices), controlled by a ISY (universal devices). I can run programs, and turn stuff on and off from my phone. The insteon hub ***** from what I hear. The isy is cool and I have tons of programs to do different things like shut off all the upstairs lights when the outside light switch is off, and I press the off button.

If the remote locations are on the same phase, then it should work. If they are not, then the RF will probably not work. The thing with insteon is the more switches you have, the better the system works. This site has the best info. http://forum.universal-devices.com/index.php?sid=5cb79263a5f916e6e976ea5ea7f0bff7

I had a hub and returned it. The new one is awful. HouseLinc + the old SmartLinc or whatever it was called was awful. All the SmartHome automation solutions ****. The rest of the devices are decent.

Not sure what "on the same phase" references. Power in the entire area would all be on the same phase.

I use Indigo now.

Thanks jgorm, I'm trying to get my head wrapped around how this all works together.
There is a wire Frequency that goes to and from each device on either leg of 240 and in addition another radio frequency:
Transmitt and recieve each device?
Only keypad to all devices? Specified device then repeated, wire and wireless?
The new hub advertise s a range of 250' wire or wireless range?
I did check out your link which may have confused me more, I'm becoming a Desoto in a Toyota world. Thanks Artie

There is radio frequency both on the power line and free air. A purely wireless device (for example, the wireless remotes) cannot communicate to a purely power line device (mostly older hard-wire devices). Most devices are dual-band and do both. This creates somewhat of a "mesh network" topology.

I had trouble getting motion sensors (RF only) to work 20' away (but through the stucco, inside switch to outside motion sensor). not all devices are dual band, so try and buy dual band. motion sensors, led bulbs, and some plug in devices are single band. Most light switches are dual band.

Stucco typically has a wire mesh behind it, which causes some issues. In addition, battery-powered wireless devices are not as powerful as the plug-in wireless devices.

I have jumped in, and ordered a 2245 222 hub and 2 outlets, 2663 222, all dual band.
I have the luxury of a lot of empty spaces in my outbuildings, either side of the neutral.
The hub sends both wired and wireless signals. I don't have much AC cable distance to go, however my house is like a lead vault as far as RF.
I have 120.00 investment with minimal expectations. If i can remote a dual band outlet at 180' , same phase, with a dual band repeater in the middle. I am satisfied, and any future devices will be gravy. IE motion sensors, timed yard light, camera, etc.
Thanks to all in helping me understand, as well as future questions for everyone else. Artie

No problem. I have a bunch of Insteon and it works great most of the time... you'll love it if you can get all the buildings linked up.

The standalone hubs **** though. I would get an ISY as jgorm has, or use a computer with HomeLinc, Indigo, etc.

What they need to do is have a better method of doing Insteon over Ethernet/WiFi, for connecting buildings. Unfortunately it seems that SmartHome's licensing for developers is such that if they have ANY plans to make a device or a similar device in even the distant future, they won't let anyone else make it. So, the aftermarket for devices is pretty limited.

 

[artieb]

Does the Hub use the my wifi any of it's wireless functions? Other than control from my Android? If not, I should still be ok.
. At this point I'm not expecting for a totally automated network.
Minimum investment and expecting minimum results.
Thanks Artie

 

[jgorm]

Not sure what "on the same phase" references. Power in the entire area would all be on the same phase.

When the power comes in it's 220v, 110v per leg that are 180 out of phase. If one set of switches is on one 110v line, they can't talk to the other line unless they hop via RF.

 

[ishiboo]

When the power comes in it's 220v, 110v per leg that are 180 out of phase. If one set of switches is on one 110v line, they can't talk to the other line unless they hop via RF.

240/120 in the US is considered single phase. The second hot is shifted 180 degrees. But ignoring that, you said different locations would be on different phases though. So each location you think might have only 120v service?

With Insteon, as long as you have a few dual-band devices the problem usually doesn't happen. If it does, you can purposely put a dual-band device on the second hot leg, or use the Insteon phase coupler.

 

[ishiboo]

Does the Hub use the my wifi any of it's wireless functions? Other than control from my Android? If not, I should still be ok.
. At this point I'm not expecting for a totally automated network.
Minimum investment and expecting minimum results.
Thanks Artie

The hub uses a wired ethernet connection. Without it, you cannot access any of the features of the hub... you have to program it somewhere!

You can link individual Insteon devices without the hub at all. Just a matter of pushing the switches.

 

[artieb]

Yes, I do have ethernet and power ready for the hub. The hub needs access to the Internet to allow programming and functions from an Android phone or tablet, via Internet connection.
Thanks Ishiboo for taking the time to clear up some basic information, that me be missed. I hope I got the basics ready and ready for a glitch. ..... always is it seems.
My plan is to pigtail an outlet, get it to take a command, move it around to find where it does and doesn't work from the hub. Then experiment with the other outlet. I'm hoping the dual band gets it where I want it.
Units should be here by the weekend.
Anyone who know if I missed something is welcome to post!
Thanks Artie

 

[jgorm]

240/120 in the US is considered single phase. The second hot is shifted 180 degrees. But ignoring that, you said different locations would be on different phases though. So each location you think might have only 120v service?

Different locations in your house, not in the city. Usually half the 110v breakers are on one hot, and the other half are on the other hot. I know it's considered "single phase" but it's really 2 phase, but people call is "single" so they don't confuse it with 3 phase (208v etc).

Yes, I do have ethernet and power ready for the hub. The hub needs access to the Internet to allow programming and functions from an Android phone or tablet, via Internet connection.
Thanks Ishiboo for taking the time to clear up some basic information, that me be missed. I hope I got the basics ready and ready for a glitch. ..... always is it seems.
My plan is to pigtail an outlet, get it to take a command, move it around to find where it does and doesn't work from the hub. Then experiment with the other outlet. I'm hoping the dual band gets it where I want it.
Units should be here by the weekend.
Anyone who know if I missed something is welcome to post!
Thanks Artie

I have a couple things to mention.
DO NOT BUY THE HUB! Get the ISY, it's far superior and has WAY better reviews online.
There is a 3 tap test and when you tap the button on the PLM 3x it will send RF and power line signals. Every device will beep if it gets the signal, and bling green or red depending on what phase (leg) the device is on.

 

[artieb]

If the hub and outlets don't work, buggy, or really unreliable , I will return, resell, or scrap the hub. I will try a wired remote. After that I will not throw any more resources into the whole Insteon apparatus.
I have a garage door fob, and a reciever that I can use to control a relay and latch it.
More times than not.... technology breaks my heart.

 

[artieb]

Hey jgorm, They can do 3 "hops" before the signal dies.
By hop, do you mean 3 devices
or hop between RF and wired signal 3 times?
Thanks Artie

 

[jgorm]

Hey jgorm, They can do 3 "hops" before the signal dies.
By hop, do you mean 3 devices
or hop between RF and wired signal 3 times?
Thanks Artie

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's 1 hop is RF to powerline, powerline to RF, or powerline to powerline. Each device can do 3 hops. You can change it to more, but then the insteon traffic starts to get intense and signals will "collide" when you have a big system. The communication is relatively slow in the communication world, maybe 5-10hz tops. Sometimes even on the same phase, some switches don't respond on the first hop due to powerline noise. If you have a small setup with only a couple switches, you could set it to have 10 hops and it should work. I have at least 30 devices so 3 hops is 90 communication events for 1 signal. now try to turn on multiple lights based off of RF motion sensor and you are in the hundreds very quickly. I had some bugs to work out when I first setup my system, but now I love it. If a car drives into my driveway, all the light switches beep once. If someone walks up towards my front door each switch will beep 2x, wait 2 sec, then beep 2x. I have internal motion sensors to turn lights on and off, with different settings during the day to help regulate those that leave lights on all the time. It's a really powerful setup with the ISY. There are IF, THEN, and ELSE statements for the programs.
This is an example of one program I run to warning beep the switch before the motion sensor will turn off the light.

If
From Sunrise - 15 minutes
To Sunset (same day)

Then
Set 'Kitchen lights' On
Set 'Kitchen lights' 8 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 8 (Beep Duration)
Wait 5 minutes
Set 'Kitchen lights' 8 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 8 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Wait 1 minute
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 8 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' Fast Off

Else
Set 'Kitchen lights' On
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Wait 10 minutes
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Wait 1 minute
Set 'Kitchen lights' 1 (Beep Duration)
Set 'Kitchen lights' Off

 

[artieb]

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to respond. I'm rethinking the Insteon hub. I like the propaganda, I've not read one positive report.
I'm doing some reading on a ISY controlled units, and appreciate your experience with them.
My money, like most people, is a concern.
In my perfect dream world, I would press a few buttons on my Android and turn on an outlet, get confirmation of its status. Without paying for an app.
I have 5 acres and almost everywhere I have wifi, and yet, does me no good.
Tell me more on how you interface your ISY to the outside world? Thanks AGAIN for your time, Artie

 

[Showkey]

I looked at Insteon............

While my needs might be different I installed several WeMo devices......No hub, simple install, no fees, WiFi control, low cost.

 

[jgorm]

I use mobil link. It cost $20/yr, but works well. The isy uses upnp and connects to the router. It needed no router tweaks to work. I can't change programs over the internet, but I can run any device or program. There are other cool things, like setting the turn off ramp rate so you can walk out of the room. I haven't bought the hvac controller, or the sprinkler controller yet, but they are in the list. The only downside is the stuff is expensive and addicting!

 

[artieb]

Bjorn are using Android or ios? Seems like everyone likes the Apple app and everyone hates the Android.
After your post Showkey, I looked at.the WeMo. Has your setup been stable? A lot of poor reviews on the Android app. I went to my far barn and lose my wifi with the door closed. I can get around that if everything else worked well.
Thanks for all the help, Artie

 

[artieb]

Insteon hub 2245-222 and, 2634-222 (15amp) outdoor outlet purchase and install update.
I plugged in the hub, downloaded the Android app and within 30 minutes I had 3 reliably controlled outlets anywhere and everywhere, including all outbuildings.
40.00 for the hub
45.00 each outlet
free Android app works anywhere I have data, 3G/4G/WIFI
This is what worked for me to turn on a barn light and block heater on truck.

 

[Showkey]

Bjorn are using Android or ios? Seems like everyone likes the Apple app and everyone hates the Android.
After your post Showkey, I looked at.the WeMo. Has your setup been stable? A lot of poor reviews on the Android app. I went to my far barn and lose my wifi with the door closed. I can get around that if everything else worked well.
Thanks for all the help, Artie

Very stable and simple to set up. I have had no concerns controlling the system with Android, iPhone and Ipad.

If Wifi is not available the WeMo App uses cell data to connect. I can control the system from any where with no monthly fee. So "in town" I open the app it connects with cell data and I do what what I need to do.

I could see if the WeMo devices are far from the WiFi router then connection would or could be lost. I do not have WeMo devices in my shop which is a distance from the router. I can stream music and WiFi data to the shop but it can be spotty. I solved that issue with a WiFi extender by Linksys. It is wireless, use wall power, and creates a duplicate Wifi access point. There are issues with some AC house wiring WiFi extenders and other WiFi relay devices and the like. I have found WiFi to be challenging at home, at relatives and work. Router quality, install, setup and use can be a nightmare.

I used a phone app to measure and evaluate WiFi signals. Just moving the antenna ( router) a few feet in any one direction can make huge differences.

After reading about the WINK system problems and the cost and some problems with Insteon that's how I ended up at WeMo. I do think just by the nature of these systems there can be problems. The reviews of any product is subject to the knowledge and skills of the installer and users.

On another wireless related subject I use the SONOS for music and it has been flawless. One hub, 5 speakers in 4 locations throughout the home and shop.

 

[artieb]

Hi Showkey, when you earlier in this thread discussed WEMO I explored it. I have 2 professional Linksys that has been hot rodded, and covers the 5 acres well, outside anyways. I have all steel buildings and garage doors. Little to no signal in winter mode.
Thanks for an unknown to me, option.