Insulating around water inlet

[rquackenbush]

I am currently insulating my garage (simple batt insulation, 2x4 walls). Most of the garage is pretty straightforward. However, I'm not sure how to handle my water inlet:

My thoughts so far:

• Put some blocking above this area and terminate the fiberglass insulation there. Then fill in around the pipe / pvc with some non-itchy sort of insulation.
• Spray foam around the PVC (that's my answer to most insulation challenges).
• Just leave it that area un-insulated an incur the heating / cooling costs later (boo).

Any ideas?

 

[koditten]

That hydrant needs no insulation. The actual valve is 4+' below the surface. There is no freeze issue because when you close off the valve handle, the water in the pipe drains out. The actual water valve is at the bottom. As long as it was installed with pea stone at the bottom, you are good to go.

The only time it will freeze is if you leave the hydrant charged with no water flow.

I can see no reason why you couldn't fill the pvc with pea stone or spray in some expanding foam and shave it smooth after it dries.

By the way, these valves are really not designed to be left charged with no flow for extended periods.

Later

KO

 

[lzenglish]

I was watching "This Old House" a couple of weeks ago, and the insulation installer would install a full fiberglass bat in the cavity, then split, cut, and tuck to get behind, and in front of obsticles such as your water pipe. I do think the expandable foam would be the ticket for the inside of the white PVC, to give it more stability, as "KO" said.

Wayne

 

[rquackenbush]

Thanks for the advice and ideas! I'm not worried about insulating the water pipe itself... The garage has been standing for about 15 years without insulation (I just bought it) without any issues that I'm aware of.

It is good to know that the hydrant isn't designed to stay open without flow - I wasn't aware of that (but fortunately I've only occasionally used and have always turned it off after use).

Also hadn't thought of using the foam to stabilize the pipe - that sounds like a good idea.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

Shoot I just bought a hydrant thinking I was going to use it as my main water valve. Leaving it charged all the time. Then in the event I did not heat my building for some reason. I'd just close the valve and drain the water pipes in the building. Is there a simular valve that can be left charged all the time?

 

[Highbeam]

I've never heard that you can't leave a hydrant open all the time. I also can't see any reason that that would be true. These things are built just like fire hydrants with a foot valve and a weep hole, very simple and durable design.

The only goofy thing about a hydrant is that you must fully open it or fully close it. No in betweens. The reason is that in a partially open state the line pressure will be blasting out through the weep hole and flooding the ground.

A fully open yard hydrant (these things are 3/4") really can blow some water so filling buckets or chicken waterers can be a pain unless you put a hose on.

I would not want a yard hydrant installed as shown in the building. These things are made to discharge water into the ground at their base, not what I want happening under my building.

 

[Kevin54]

That hydrant needs no insulation. The actual valve is 4+' below the surface. There is no freeze issue because when you close off the valve handle, the water in the pipe drains out. The actual water valve is at the bottom. As long as it was installed with pea stone at the bottom, you are good to go.

The only time it will freeze is if you leave the hydrant charged with no water flow.

I can see no reason why you couldn't fill the pvc with pea stone or spray in some expanding foam and shave it smooth after it dries.

By the way, these valves are really not designed to be left charged with no flow for extended periods.

Later

KO

Not trying to sound like a smartass, but can you explain what you mean about being "charged". I have a hydrant out in my yard and we can get below zero in the winter or below freezing for months. If I go out and pull the lever it is on no matter what the temperature is. I've lived here for almost 20 years and I'd say my hydrant has been charged all that time with no problems at all.

Now if you are talking about the hydrant and well pump and nothing else on it, then I can understand what you mean by charged. Commonly called deadheading where the pump is constantly trying to push the water up but the hydrant is closed. Most hydrants are set up though that when the hydrant is off, the water is routed to the house and through the pressure tank and controlled by the pressure switch. If it isn't, then someone hasn't hooked the system up properly.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

I've never heard that you can't leave a hydrant open all the time. I also can't see any reason that that would be true. These things are built just like fire hydrants with a foot valve and a weep hole, very simple and durable design.

The only goofy thing about a hydrant is that you must fully open it or fully close it. No in betweens. The reason is that in a partially open state the line pressure will be blasting out through the weep hole and flooding the ground.

A fully open yard hydrant (these things are 3/4") really can blow some water so filling buckets or chicken waterers can be a pain unless you put a hose on.

I would not want a yard hydrant installed as shown in the building. These things are made to discharge water into the ground at their base, not what I want happening under my building.

So based on your post and what my intentions are for the use of the hydrant in my application I think I'm fine to go ahead and use it.

 

[Highbeam]

Shoot I just bought a hydrant thinking I was going to use it as my main water valve. Leaving it charged all the time. Then in the event I did not heat my building for some reason. I'd just close the valve and drain the water pipes in the building. Is there a simular valve that can be left charged all the time?

Most water supply lines to buildings are buried and when I need a shutoff on a buried line I like to use a ball valve. The only place I can see a yard hydrant feeding a building is if the service to that building is a hose on the ground. I would be more worried about the hose on the ground bursting then about the yard hydrant.

 

[Highbeam]

Now if you are talking about the hydrant and well pump and nothing else on it, then I can understand what you mean by charged. Commonly called deadheading where the pump is constantly trying to push the water up but the hydrant is closed. Most hydrants are set up though that when the hydrant is off, the water is routed to the house and through the pressure tank and controlled by the pressure switch. If it isn't, then someone hasn't hooked the system up properly.

I am having a very hard time making any sense of this. A yard hydrant is just a fancy hose bib on the end of a water line, just a remote on/off valve leading to a spout. How you pressurize the water line has nothing to do with the hydrant.

 

[koditten]

What I found was leaving the hydrant charged, with a hose attached to the end and the spray nozzle closed off, may make the underground valve leak. As stated earlier, the hydrant needs to be fully on or fully off. The valves in the ground can leak directly to the ground if not fully open.

There is quite a bit of adjusting to do with this type of hydrant.

I prolly should have stated "charged, with a hose attached and the hose nozzle shut off for extended periods"

Hope this clears this up. By the way, these are great valves. I have one too.

Later

KO

 

[Highbeam]

Normal household plumbing is 1/2" and the hose bibs are typically reduced even more. So when you are using a garden hose from the house, flow is pretty good.

When you use a yard hydrant you are getting a full 3/4" pipe for flow. Filling buckets or RV tanks is way faster from a yard hydrant.

 

[Kevin54]

Normal household plumbing is 1/2" and the hose bibs are typically reduced even more. So when you are using a garden hose from the house, flow is pretty good.

When you use a yard hydrant you are getting a full 3/4" pipe for flow. Filling buckets or RV tanks is way faster from a yard hydrant.

The hydrant is full pressure off of the pump and only uses a pressure tank for the on and off of electric to the pump. The hose bibs on the house are lower pressure because of your pressure tank.

 

[Highbeam]

The hydrant is full pressure off of the pump and only uses a pressure tank for the on and off of electric to the pump. The hose bibs on the house are lower pressure because of your pressure tank.

I think I see your problem. It seems you think all yard hydrants are placed between the well casing and the pressure tank. Did you ever consider that most folks aren't on a well at all? How about the folks, like me, that have a wellshed with the well and pressure tanks in one shed and then run a constant pressure water line to the house. Try and forget about your particular means of providing water pressure to the yard hydrant and instead, assume that the hydrant is just fed constant pressurized water.

A yard hydrant is just a large hose bib tee'd off of any water line.