Insulating detached garage on a budget

[howdo]

20'x22' detached garage, unisulated, 4/12 pitch hip roof. Located in Northern Illinois. My guess is that I would be out in garage once a week for maybe half a day to work on a car or other projects TBD.

Just purchased the farenheit FUH54 5000 watt electric heater. In my area the rate is $.20 per kWh, so this heater would cost $1/hour to run continuously. Electrician quoted me $500 to dig trench(35') and run 240v to the garage. This is based on installing a switch to supply power to the heater. This was a cheaper option compared to installing a panel.

My question: I know I should do some insulating, but we are likely only staying at this house another 3-4 years, so I want to keep the cost reasonable, and insulate the area that gives me the most benefit first. Then in the future, if I start to go out there more, I can insulate the rest of the garage. So what gives the most bang for the buck? Ceiling, walls or garage door?

From reading the posts, it sounds like the ceiling is important. For my hip roof, there aren't closely spaced ceiling joists, so not sure exactly how to tackle that.

Thanks!

 

[larry4406]

I would insulate the ceiling first, then walls, then garage door. Do you have a ceiling; if so blow in might be cheap.

Not insulation related, but these heaters have a cool down cycle after the internal thermostat turns off, so don't simply kill power to the heater to turn it off.

 

[Firebrick43]

20 cents a kw and you still went with electricity?

Ceiling first will do the most good. I personally think with the cost of your electricity you can't afford not to insulate fully.

 

[howdo]

20 cents a kw and you still went with electricity?

Ceiling first will do the most good. I personally think with the cost of your electricity you can't afford not to insulate fully.

Yep, I know what you mean. It will be costly if I am out there a lot. I debated this, but the ball park quote I got to run gas out there seemed really expensive. IIRC, around $3000 (to dig trench, run gas line, heater cost, and install). I bought electric heater for $220, and can get 240v out there for $500. So I figured I would need to be out there a lot to make up for the $2200 difference in setup cost. But this is my uneducated guess

 

[Kaizen]

Think stop air movement for the most bang. Spray foam in a can seal up any drafts. Six mil plastic on ceiling will make a big difference. Then use standard insulating as described above


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[Showkey]

Menards:

Fiberglass craft faced for the walls and ceiling blown in cellulose is the least cost per sqft. If there is no ceiling then craft faced is the next choice assuming the joist spacing is standard.

 

[howdo]

Menards:

Fiberglass craft faced for the walls and ceiling blown in cellulose is the least cost per sqft. If there is no ceiling then craft faced is the next choice assuming the joist spacing is standard.

No ceiling. This is a hip roof,and there are really only 3 horizontal 2x6's. Not ceiling joists with standard spacing. How do I insulate this?
thanks

 

[stm317]

Heat rises, so if you're trying to keep heat in the building, you need to insulate the ceiling more than any other area. Foam insulation board can usually be found pretty cheap on Craigslist and has a higher R value per inch of thickness than just about anything else. It would be really easy to hang between your framing. Paying full price for foam at a box store gets pricey though so finding a deal is really helpful to the budget.

If you don't need the storage between the rafters, you could make a ceiling using thick foam panels, and blow cellulose in on top for max R value and not terrible cost.

How is the roof vented right now? That's important to consider as well.

 

[natlewis]

[/IMG]

I found the easiest way to insulate my pole barn was to use garage door panels. I used 2" thick panels which provide an estimated R-17 value. The ones I used were 12 feet long x 2 feet wide and went up quickly. They can bridge long spans and come with a pre existing gloss white finish. Insulation and wall covering in one. My garage is pole barn construction so I didn't have to go back and retro fit studs for traditional insulation methods. Aluminum face that can be sprayed/washed. These things are the best kept secret in the garage world. I paid $1.20/sqft.

 

[natlewis]

FYI my trusses are spaced four feet apart.

 

[Showkey]

Your budget needs to be increased to do this correctly. Do it right, do it once.......

First add ceiling support joists or system to support the ceiling, then add a ceiling, then add insulation. Insulation directly to the roof can be done but it’s not the best or correct solution.

 

[bburen]

[/IMG]

I found the easiest way to insulate my pole barn was to use garage door panels. I used 2" thick panels which provide an estimated R-17 value. The ones I used were 12 feet long x 2 feet wide and went up quickly. They can bridge long spans and come with a pre existing gloss white finish. Insulation and wall covering in one. My garage is pole barn construction so I didn't have to go back and retro fit studs for traditional insulation methods. Aluminum face that can be sprayed/washed. These things are the best kept secret in the garage world. I paid $1.20/sqft.

Where did you find these??

 

[bobbyjean]

garage door panels ? wow....nice ...looks good

 

[mrramsey]

Yep, I know what you mean. It will be costly if I am out there a lot. I debated this, but the ball park quote I got to run gas out there seemed really expensive. IIRC, around $3000 (to dig trench, run gas line, heater cost, and install). I bought electric heater for $220, and can get 240v out there for $500. So I figured I would need to be out there a lot to make up for the $2200 difference in setup cost. But this is my uneducated guess

$3k is a reasonable amount for installing a gas unit with all of the trenching. You'll rack up the additional $2200 faster than you think you will.

 

[b-boy]

I just paid $4K to get gas, water, and electrical conduit (no wire) run, so $3K is definitely in the ballpark.

 

[Bolson32]

$3k is a reasonable amount for installing a gas unit with all of the trenching. You'll rack up the additional $2200 faster than you think you will.

Not if he's only going to live there 3-4 years. It's probably pretty close and .20 electric is expensive, it really depends on how much he runs it. If he keeps it at 50 degrees and doesn't insulate that well, he'll probably lose money on the deal. If he insulates decently and runs it a total of 20 hours a month, he'd be stupid to put in Gas.

OP, I have the same roof, I'll get you some pictures this weekend but I spray foamed the ceiling for $1200. Put kraft faced in the walls and sheathed with OSB. Did my own sub panel and hung a 5000w heater just like you.

Bear in mind running a new circuit to the garage isn't up to code, I'm not sure I'd trust the electrician to do that. If you have a detached structure you can only have one circuit from the main running out there and need to have a sub with branch circuits at that point. I think having another 240v circuit out there isn't advisable.

Rough Estimate for my 15x22 garage
$1200 - Spray foam ceiling
$700 - Electric - sub panel, new circuits, outlets, heater, conduit, wiring, etc
$700 - Walls - This was awhile ago, could've been more but I don't remember. Kraft faced fiberglass, OSB for the walls an oil based primer/latex paint

Total ~$2600

 

[natlewis]

Where did you find these??

It's my understanding that the panels are essentially manufacturer surplus/defects (perhaps a dent or a scratch here or there). The face side of the panels are all different colors, shapes, designs etc...What you are looking at in the picture is the back of the panels which are all the same pattern. Most of the cosmetic blemishes I've encountered are on the front of the panel. I'm in PA, and there are a couple of guys who buy these by the truck load (I'm not sure where) and sell them at a profit. A friend of mine also came across some industrial freezer panels (essentially the same thing but 4" thick). I'm sure someone in your area has these things if you poke around a little.

 

[howdo]

Not if he's only going to live there 3-4 years. It's probably pretty close and .20 electric is expensive, it really depends on how much he runs it. If he keeps it at 50 degrees and doesn't insulate that well, he'll probably lose money on the deal. If he insulates decently and runs it a total of 20 hours a month, he'd be stupid to put in Gas.

OP, I have the same roof, I'll get you some pictures this weekend but I spray foamed the ceiling for $1200. Put kraft faced in the walls and sheathed with OSB. Did my own sub panel and hung a 5000w heater just like you.

Bear in mind running a new circuit to the garage isn't up to code, I'm not sure I'd trust the electrician to do that. If you have a detached structure you can only have one circuit from the main running out there and need to have a sub with branch circuits at that point. I think having another 240v circuit out there isn't advisable.

Rough Estimate for my 15x22 garage
$1200 - Spray foam ceiling
$700 - Electric - sub panel, new circuits, outlets, heater, conduit, wiring, etc
$700 - Walls - This was awhile ago, could've been more but I don't remember. Kraft faced fiberglass, OSB for the walls an oil based primer/latex paint

Total ~$2600

thanks for the prices you paid, that helps. Pictures would be awesome.

Now you have me re-thinking about the electrician I was going to use....before he came out to quote job I had heard from multiple sources that running two feeds to garage was against code, but electrician said no problem. He said if I wanted to save cost, keep existing 120v service. The new 240 v at garage would have a switch (no subpanel) and only feed heater. Maybe I should get another electrician to quote the job.

 

[The_Auto_Tech]

$3k is a reasonable amount for installing a gas unit with all of the trenching. You'll rack up the additional $2200 faster than you think you will.

If it costs him a dollar an hour to run the heater you're talking 2,200 hours of run time to make up that price difference. Even when I'm out in my garage all day the heater maybe runs for a total of 2 hours max. Figure you're maybe needing to heat it for 5 months. 2 hours of run time a day x 7 days a week = 14 hours a week. 14 hours x 4 weeks = 56 hours a month. 56 hours a month x 5 months = 280 hours per year. Given this is a rough estimate, but you're looking at probably 10 years for it to break even, and that's on my kind of use, not his. He stated that he's maybe going to be our there half a day a week. No way in hell he'd ever make up that 2200 dollars. Factor in the idea that gas isn't free and that the electric heaters need no maintenance as well.

 

[Bolson32]

Exactly Auto, even if he keeps it at 50 degrees 24/7 it will probably run ~6 hours a day. That's $900 a year, so break even is more like 2.5-3 years. And that's probably a really conservative estimate, I would assume his break even to be in the 7 year range for most use cases.

 

[johnboy13]

Where in N. IL are you? I'm in Rockford, we pay about $0.13/kWh through ComEd with taxes and fees included. I just installed a QMARK MUH0521 5000W heater in my 20x20 detached garage about a month and a half ago. The ceiling is insulated to R19. The overhead doors and windows are insulated with rigid foam. The walls are covered with cement board of some kind so insulating them probably isn't ever going to happen. It looks like it's going to cost me around $40 this month.

I couldn't be happier with it.

 

[The_Auto_Tech]

Where in N. IL are you? I'm in Rockford, we pay about $0.13/kWh through ComEd with taxes and fees included. I just installed a QMARK MUH0521 5000W heater in my 20x20 detached garage about a month and a half ago. The ceiling is insulated to R19. The overhead doors and windows are insulated with rigid foam. The walls are covered with cement board of some kind so insulating them probably isn't ever going to happen. It looks like it's going to cost me around $40 this month.

I couldn't be happier with it.

That's similar to my setup as well. I've got a 7500W heater and couldn't be happier. It heats the area well, fairly quickly, and is nice and quiet plus easy to setup. After being back at my parent's place with the natural gas heater it's loud, although effective. Gas isn't free anyways, it's just cheaper.

 

[Bolson32]

thanks for the prices you paid, that helps. Pictures would be awesome.

Sorry the picture aren't the best, had some seating setup there as I had a football party out there on Saturday. Was oddly hard to take a picture of the garage that really takes it all in.

They're also not embedding for some reason, here's the album.

https://imgur.com/a/zItBM

 

[sublime68charger]

My .02$ would be add some 2x6 to span the garage along with the ones that you already have and space them out to give you consistent spots to add in insulation bat's or blown in insulation.

I did my garage ceiling with 4x8 Styrofoam board and used 1x4 Boards to add striping and hold the Styrofoam boards up. above the Styrofoam boards is insulation bats or you could blow insulation in on top of the Styrofoam.

pic of mine, Plenty of other pics in the yea old garage thread just find the winter months is when I have worked on garage insulation been a 3 year project on that.

 

[Bolson32]

Yea I thought about panels as well, but it would be a nightmare with a hip roof.

 

[stm317]

Sorry the picture aren't the best, had some seating setup there as I had a football party out there on Saturday. Was oddly hard to take a picture of the garage that really takes it all in.

They're also not embedding for some reason, here's the album.

https://imgur.com/a/zItBM

Any idea what your spray foam cost would break down into per board foot?

 

[Bolson32]

Any idea what your spray foam cost would break down into per board foot?

It was about $1.10/board foot.

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[bzinsky]

Buy a propane grill, roll it into the garage when you want heat, roll it out of the garage when you want food.

 

[Kaizen]

Buy a propane grill, roll it into the garage when you want heat, roll it out of the garage when you want food.

You trying to kill the guy? Those are not like a kitchen range


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[lramre]

It's my understanding that the panels are essentially manufacturer surplus/defects (perhaps a dent or a scratch here or there). The face side of the panels are all different colors, shapes, designs etc...What you are looking at in the picture is the back of the panels which are all the same pattern. Most of the cosmetic blemishes I've encountered are on the front of the panel. I'm in PA, and there are a couple of guys who buy these by the truck load (I'm not sure where) and sell them at a profit. A friend of mine also came across some industrial freezer panels (essentially the same thing but 4" thick). I'm sure someone in your area has these things if you poke around a little.

I'm located in PA also and would love to do this to my shop ceiling also. Could you let me know your supplier or where to look even?