Insulating Garage Ceiling - Need Recommendation

[Jay_a]

I have an attached garage with concrete block walls and I believe concrete ceiling as well. Have only been in this home for a year so discovering things out along the way. There's a bedroom directly above the garage and it feels like a meat locker during the winter. Plus the draft from the bedroom spreads through the second floor and down the stairs. So my thinking is to insulate the garage ceiling as much as possible to better manage the bedroom temperature and improve overall heating efficiency.

The ceiling is solid so I can't add insulation from below and I don't want to rip up the bedroom floors to add insulation below the floor (considering that's even possible). What do you think about adding foam insulation board to the ceiling? There's about 4 inches clearance between the garage door and ceiling when the door is open.

A picture is attached with the door open.

 

[NUTTSGT]

First figure out what the ceiling is made of, tap on it, drill it or whatever. If it's drywall, hole saw a spot to see if it's insulated.

Secondly, fully insulate the garage and keep the door shut. Let the vehicle engine heat warm up the garage and retain any heat you can during the winter. My unheated attached garage stays 10-15 degrees warmer than the outside temps.

If your ceiling is concrete, which I say is probably rare, your only option is probably foam board. Tapcon 2x4s flat to the ceiling and add 1 1/2" of foam then cover with drywall.

 

[pg.stripedbass@gmail.]

I agree with NUTTSGT suggestions. I would be surprised if it is cement/concrete. One consideration to keep in mind is that foam board needs to be covered to have a fire rating that complies with code. Since there is occupied space above the garage, this will need to be fire rated sheetrock. You will also only get minimum insulation out of foam board, 2" is an R-10. To put in perspective, in Zone 5 (which I think is NY), you are now required to have R-38 in the ceiling application you describe.

 

[Jay_a]

First figure out what the ceiling is made of, tap on it, drill it or whatever. If it's drywall, hole saw a spot to see if it's insulated.

Secondly, fully insulate the garage and keep the door shut. Let the vehicle engine heat warm up the garage and retain any heat you can during the winter. My unheated attached garage stays 10-15 degrees warmer than the outside temps.

If your ceiling is concrete, which I say is probably rare, your only option is probably foam board. Tapcon 2x4s flat to the ceiling and add 1 1/2" of foam then cover with drywall.

It's definitely not drywall. I've drilled into it and I needed a rotary hammer to drill into it. The ceiling is solid and made of the same or similar as the walls based on drilling in both the walls and the ceiling to install the peg board that is on the walls and also when I installed the myQ wifi garage opener on the ceiling. There does appear to be a layer of plaster or drywall on top of whatever is the internal structure which on the walls I assume to be concrete block. I have been tempted to try opening a larger piece of the wall to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

 

[Jay_a]

I agree with NUTTSGT suggestions. I would be surprised if it is cement/concrete. One consideration to keep in mind is that foam board needs to be covered to have a fire rating that complies with code. Since there is occupied space above the garage, this will need to be fire rated sheetrock. You will also only get minimum insulation out of foam board, 2" is an R-10. To put in perspective, in Zone 5 (which I think is NY), you are now required to have R-38 in the ceiling application you describe.

I was concerned about fire rating and code considering there's a bedroom above. Was hoping this would be a quick DIY as opposed to hiring someone.

 

[CombatNinja]

Does the roof of the garage have eaves outside the bedroom space that you have access to?

 

[acer66]

Did you check if there is any insulation in the ceiling?

 

[billconner]

You don't want to insulate and heat garage - bring it "inside"? That should solve bedroom cold.

Don't know if you have a way or place but can you accurately measure thickness of garage ceiling/bedroom floor sandwich? maybe from a bedroom window? Would rule out or in some options.

Feels like a concrete plank - flexi-core. Are house walls frame or also block?

 

[NUTTSGT]

It's definitely not drywall. I've drilled into it and I needed a rotary hammer to drill into it. The ceiling is solid and made of the same or similar as the walls based on drilling in both the walls and the ceiling to install the peg board that is on the walls and also when I installed the myQ wifi garage opener on the ceiling. There does appear to be a layer of plaster or drywall on top of whatever is the internal structure which on the walls I assume to be concrete block. I have been tempted to try opening a larger piece of the wall to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

How thick was the ceiling where you drilled ?

 

[Jay_a]

Does the roof of the garage have eaves outside the bedroom space that you have access to?

Here's a picture from the outside. The dormer on top is the bedroom so it appears that is a space under the roof between the bedroom wall where it ends to the end of the garage. But no access.

 

[Jay_a]

You don't want to insulate and heat garage - bring it "inside"? That should solve bedroom cold.

Don't know if you have a way or place but can you accurately measure thickness of garage ceiling/bedroom floor sandwich? maybe from a bedroom window? Would rule out or in some options.

Feels like a concrete plank - flexi-core. Are house walls frame or also block?

Great question about garage ceiling thickness, and I hadn't thought about this before. I circled in yellow where I drilled into the garage ceiling. I went about 2-3 inches before hitting open space. The pic is from inside the house through the exit door into the garage. Notice there's a drop down in the ceiling of 16 inches to the garage ceiling. The top part is flush with the ceiling in the first floor of the house and right above is the bedroom. So it appears there is at least a 16 inch difference from the bedroom floor to the garage ceiling. Maybe there's empty space here that needs to be insulated. The main part of the house is frame and almost 90 years old. The garage and bedroom were an addition at some point, but the village records I can access online don't mention a year, just a vague reference to additions here and there from the 60's to 90's so it's a bit of a mystery unless I start opening walls.

 

[billconner]

I might try poking a hole in that 16" vertical surface. Hate to say that - yours is one of the most nicely finished garages I've seen. Probably thick too - guessing over built version of 5/8 drywall requirement. Was hoping you could blow in cellulose.

 

[Jay_a]

I might try poking a hole in that 16" vertical surface. Hate to say that - yours is one of the most nicely finished garages I've seen. Probably thick too - guessing over built version of 5/8 drywall requirement. Was hoping you could blow in cellulose.

I should have thought of this earlier. I have an inspection camera, that's a whole other story concerning what I thought was a water leak in the living room ceiling .

Tried drilling a hole in the 16" vertical. Made it 2 inches in but didn't get anywhere. So drilled near the area I highlighted in yellow in previous image. Check out the attached pics. Looks like there is some insulation but mostly empty space. Happy I didn't hit that pipe! The image numbered 0021 is looking straight up. And the second image numbered 0026 is looking horizontally into the space.

What do you think? Should I have the ceiling opened and further insulated?

 

[loganb]

Can you post a good pic of the hole so we can better see what that material is? I would expect just 2 layers of drywall for the fire rating, but needing a hammer drill has me curious if itay have plaster in it?

The pictured appear to show conventional framing with what appears to be blown in cellulose insulation. Blown in insulation should be easily feasible with a series of access holes into each joist bay...probably need 3 holes along the length of each bay to get full coverage. The best solution from pure insulation would be rip it all down and spray foam and possibly cover that with batt...but as mentioned that's a great looking ceiling so seems like a lot of work....the flip side is patching all the drywall access holes won't be fun either

 

[billconner]

I think cellulose blown in. When I've done it, using a stiffer hose than the freebie rentals, like pvc tubing, I can get quite a ways from one hole. Pumping in cellulose should be cheap, especially if you diy. I don't know if holes in ceiling, or in floor of bedroom if just underlayment, or lift some siding and do from end, but seems least expensive and very effective. Aim for a foot of cellulose at a minimum. Looks like plenty of room. (I'm assuming this is well after knob and tube wiring - the one no go for cellulose.)

 

[Jay_a]

Can you post a good pic of the hole so we can better see what that material is? I would expect just 2 layers of drywall for the fire rating, but needing a hammer drill has me curious if itay have plaster in it?

The pictured appear to show conventional framing with what appears to be blown in cellulose insulation. Blown in insulation should be easily feasible with a series of access holes into each joist bay...probably need 3 holes along the length of each bay to get full coverage. The best solution from pure insulation would be rip it all down and spray foam and possibly cover that with batt...but as mentioned that's a great looking ceiling so seems like a lot of work....the flip side is patching all the drywall access holes won't be fun either

The hole is only 3/8" wide so hard to get a good view, but attached some pics of the best I could get. I do see some metallic, maybe that is also causing much of the resistance? On image 32 you'll notice metallic (or so it seems) on the left and right side of the pictures.

I drilled a second hole closer to the door opening and i was able to drill through the ceiling very easily. So could be just drywall in that spot. There was also much more insulation in the second hole. Only 3-4 inch gap at the top.

The thought of ripping it all down and then having to re-do the ceiling is not that appealing. Leaning towards getting more blown in.

 

[billconner]

wet plaster on metal lath?

 

[jkuro]

If you have carpeting in the bedroom the easiest way is to pull the rug back and cut a hole in the floor to see what you have. Also, it's where you want to add insulation from.

 

[loganb]

wet plaster on metal lath?

Kind what I'm thinking it may be

 

[3onthetree]

I don't think you have a 16" thick floor. That recessed area you measured is to allow you to walk out from the Kitchen and not hit your head.
What I think they may have done is build a false ceiling using the bottom of the beam to dictate height. You would need a beam parallel to the front wall of the dormer, and the floor joists would be sitting on that. Otherwise they would have had to frame this dormer floor in a very strange way to force a lower garage ceiling height and allow the ceiling recess by the Kitchen door - but strange things are done all the time. If it were precast panels, well, holy cow the previous owner spent a mint for nothing.

I also do not think you have a concrete ceiling - don't even think CMU walls - but probably some rock board to accept the Level5 plaster finish. When you drill you can look at the dust to determine the material. You really should open up an access panel in the little "kneewall attic." Stick your head up in there and that will tell you exactly how it is built and what can be done.

What I suspect is a bigger problem than the ceiling creating the cold and drafts, is the front wall of the bedroom. It probably needs airsealed, if it even has sheathing, and depending on how the floor is framed there may need to be blocking put between the floor joists to prevent the air from just going all the way back to the Kitchen wall.

 

[PoorUB]

I will be it is wood framed with plaster. The old plaster was nasty stuff and eat up a drill bit or hole saw in seconds!
To the OP, I would open up a couple places to get a look at what you have. It is probably as simple as blowing in more insulation. Get a quote from an insulation company you may be surprised how inexpensive it is especially if you help out and cut the holes so they can roll in, blow and run and leave you with patching up the holes.

 

[mitusa]

If you have carpeting in the bedroom the easiest way is to pull the rug back and cut a hole in the floor to see what you have. Also, it's where you want to add insulation from.

This^^^^^x10

 

[PoorUB]

If you have carpeting in the bedroom the easiest way is to pull the rug back and cut a hole in the floor to see what you have. Also, it's where you want to add insulation from

I would much rather repair holes in the garage ceiling then tear up my bedroom. There is no problem blowing in insulation from below.

 

[Jay_a]

If you have carpeting in the bedroom the easiest way is to pull the rug back and cut a hole in the floor to see what you have. Also, it's where you want to add insulation from.

Wood floors in the bedroom, so I'll most likely be going up through the garage ceiling.

 

[jkuro]

I would much rather repair holes in the garage ceiling then tear up my bedroom. There is no problem blowing in insulation from below.

Yeah, cutting a hole in the floor is TEARING up a bedroom!

 

[Jay_a]

What I suspect is a bigger problem than the ceiling creating the cold and drafts, is the front wall of the bedroom. It probably needs airsealed, if it even has sheathing, and depending on how the floor is framed there may need to be blocking put between the floor joists to prevent the air from just going all the way back to the Kitchen wall.

Thanks and good point. Adding it to the list to get checked out.

 

[PoorUB]

Yeah, cutting a hole in the floor is TEARING up a bedroom!

You can not insulate by cutting out one hole, there will be 20-30 of them to patch up, not including ripping up the carpet. A week long project interupting you life while you sleep in the spare bedroom, or on the floor in your living room. Then patch up all the holes so they don't squeak or spring down when you walk over them. For me I would have to put a layer of 1/2" plywood over the whole floor to be satidfied. Plus if the OP's wife is anything like mine, of course new carpet, paint the whole room, new curtains, bedding, hell, maybe even a new mattress. It will get out of hand I bet!

Going through the garage ceiling you hole saw out about the same number of holes, screw the sawed out plug back in with a stick and a few screws and mud it over. You can roll the car out, fix a bit and roll the car back in then sleep in your regular bed. If it takes six months to finish it, who cares?

 

[PoorUB]

Wood floors in the bedroom, so I'll most likely be going up through the garage ceiling.

There you go!

I never even though of hardwaood floors, but we have them in our bedroom.

 

[jkuro]

You can not insulate by cutting out one hole, there will be 20-30 of them to patch up, not including ripping up the carpet. A week long project interupting you life while you sleep in the spare bedroom, or on the floor in your living room. Then patch up all the holes so they don't squeak or spring down when you walk over them. For me I would have to put a layer of 1/2" plywood over the whole floor to be satidfied. Plus if the OP's wife is anything like mine, of course new carpet, paint the whole room, new curtains, bedding, hell, maybe even a new mattress. It will get out of hand I bet!

Going through the garage ceiling you hole saw out about the same number of holes, screw the sawed out plug back in with a stick and a few screws and mud it over. You can roll the car out, fix a bit and roll the car back in then sleep in your regular bed. If it takes six months to finish it, who cares?

Wow, how to make a MOUNTAIN out of a mole hill. It's a days project at most. I have done it a few times.

 

[Jay_a]

You can not insulate by cutting out one hole, there will be 20-30 of them to patch up, not including ripping up the carpet. A week long project interupting you life while you sleep in the spare bedroom, or on the floor in your living room. Then patch up all the holes so they don't squeak or spring down when you walk over them. For me I would have to put a layer of 1/2" plywood over the whole floor to be satidfied. Plus if the OP's wife is anything like mine, of course new carpet, paint the whole room, new curtains, bedding, hell, maybe even a new mattress. It will get out of hand I bet!

Going through the garage ceiling you hole saw out about the same number of holes, screw the sawed out plug back in with a stick and a few screws and mud it over. You can roll the car out, fix a bit and roll the car back in then sleep in your regular bed. If it takes six months to finish it, who cares?

My first thought was my wife is going to freak out when we start cutting into the hardwood floors

 

[PoorUB]

Wow, how to make a MOUNTAIN out of a mole hill. It's a days project at most. I have done it a few times.

You must be single.

I replaced a window in our bedroom. My wife is shopping for curtains, bedding, rugs, pictures and paint.

I didn't make the mountain, it appears all but itself!

Plus, how do you do an adaquate job of insulating through one hole? In our house it would be 10 -20 holes to insuate the bedroom floor your way.

 

[jkuro]

When you blow in the insulation, I usually break the room into thirds. Cut two slots perpendicular to the floor joists about a foot wide, enough to get the hose in, the length of the room. Blow in the insulation. Put the wood back in. You may have to add a few nailers.