Insulating garage they didn't put vapour barrier

[m0823]

Hey, I live north of Toronto, Ontario and everything that is built around here gets a vapour barrier (6mil poly) after insulation, prior to drywall. My parents are building a house through a builder and the garage has gotten upgrades. ( thicker concrete for lift, capped gas line for heater, and spray foam insulation) The spray foam is open cell spray foam (sprayed and expands greatly, then cut back, flush with the walls studs) and to my knowledge this is no different then fibreglass batt style insulation when it comes to requiring a vapour barrier.

Can anybody veryify this for me? The site super has told my father that they havent put vapour barrier on any garages that they have spray foam insulated.
I was thinking maybe this is against ontario building code but i am not sure. Any knowledge on this stuff is greatly appreciated.

 

[kbs2244]

Call the building deparment.

 

[crf731]

http://www.icynene.com/homeowner/choosing-insulation/thermal-barriers


Vapor Barriers and Vapor Diffusion Retarders - Protect Against Moisture

Cold Climates - Vapor Barriers and Spray Foam Insulation

If you’re using an open-cell spray foam insulation such as Icynene LD-C-50 in a cold climate, you’re usually required to have a vapor barrier or vapor diffusion retarder on the interior (warm in the winter) side of the insulation. This blocks moisture movement from inside your house to the outside, where it may condense and freeze. Vapor barriers / vapor diffusion retarders are typically membranes (plastic sheets) or brush-on coatings.

Closed-cell spray foam insulation typically doesn’t require a vapor barrier or vapor diffusion retarder.

Hot and Humid Climates - Vapor Barriers and Spray Foam Insulation

If you’re using an open-cell spray foam insulation such as Icynene LD-C-50, in a hot and humid climate you’re usually required to have a vapor barrier or vapor diffusion retarder on the exterior side of the insulation. This blocks moisture movement from outside your house to the inside, where it can cause mold and increase the amount of energy you need to cool your home. Vapor barriers / vapor diffusion retarders are typically membranes (plastic sheets) or brush-on coatings.

Closed-cell spray foam insulation typically doesn’t require a vapor barrier or vapor diffusion retarder.

Hot and Dry Climates - No Vapor Barrier

Vapor barriers or vapor diffusion retarders aren’t generally required in hot and dry climates.

 

[Ryan87LX]

I believe that closed-cell foam IS the vapour barrier.

So, if they used an open cell foam, there should be a vapour barrier installed. Do you know what kind of product they used? Maybe you could check the mfg website for more info.

You could also call the building inspector, but they aren't always completely aware of the facts when it comes to new products, at least around here. I think the mfg is your best bet.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Just my 2 cents but I think with open cell you would want a vapor barrier on the interior. However if it was sprayed correctly with no voids or gaps then you are probably fine.

Just to be sure I would ask Mike Holmes if I were you!

 

[e-tek]

Just my 2 cents but I think with open cell you would want a vapor barrier on the interior. However if it was sprayed correctly with no voids or gaps then you are probably fine.

Just to be sure I would ask Mike Holmes if I were you!

The real Tim the Tool Man would NEVER ask Mike Holmes!!!

 

[JTG]

The site super has told my father that they havent put vapour barrier on any garages that they have spray foam insulated.

My guess is most of the garages he's built are not going to get heated so not having a vapor barrier isn't a problem. Code or not I'd have him put it in.

 

[m0823]

I would want it put in just to be safe but now they have already drywalled. I dont want to get angry and say they have to take it down, its not right, and then turn out to be wrong. Clearly he doesnt want to do it because he said they dont put it in any of the garages they insulate. I am certain it is an open cell foam and not closed cell because i know close cell is more rigid, doesn't expands as much, where as mine expanded greatly and was then cut back to the studs and the material is quite sponge-like.

I was thinking maybe code doesn't apply to this situation as it is a garage. My hope is that this is against ontario building code so that i have a definite legitimate argument that the drywall needs to be torn down and vapour barrier installed.

 

[csp]

I don't claim to know anything about Ontario code, but a garage typically isn't a conditioned space (heated or cooled), so code probably doesn't apply.

 

[buddyboy]

you should be ok.

air is going to take the path of least resistance, which in your case will be the cracks around the garage doors.

air movement thru those walls with any kind of spray foam should be at a minimum.

if it were fiberglass bats with no vapor barrier I'd be more concerned but even though that foam is open cell it's gonna stop air flow.

remember that water vapor in warm air will condense on cold surfaces. controlling in a garage can be a challenge.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

The real Tim the Tool Man would NEVER ask Mike Holmes!!!

I would never ask Mike Holmes! I only suggested that the OP, m0823, ask him! I was to busy putting a Chevy small block 350 in my nose hair trimmer to give his situation all the attention it needed.

 

[JimVonBaden]

I don't claim to know anything about Ontario code, but a garage typically isn't a conditioned space (heated or cooled), so code probably doesn't apply.

Exactly what my builder said. No need unless you plan to heat and cool extensively.

Jim

 

[m0823]

Exactly what my builder said. No need unless you plan to heat and cool extensively.

Jim

Well the gas line is ran in there capped right now but a tube type radiant heater will eventually be installed. It could be -20 celsius outside and ill probably be heating it to around 15. Is this where the need for vapour barrier really comes into play?

 

[m0823]

I would never ask Mike Holmes! I only suggested that the OP, m0823, ask him! I was to busy putting a Chevy small block 350 in my nose hair trimmer to give his situation all the attention it needed.

I would but i doubt its that easy to get in contact with that guy he might say to just tear the whole house down lol

 

[e-tek]

Well the gas line is ran in there capped right now but a tube type radiant heater will eventually be installed. It could be -20 celsius outside and ill probably be heating it to around 15. Is this where the need for vapour barrier really comes into play?

Exactly. I can't believe guys saying you "should" be OK with no vapor barrier. I think you have to build for "in-case", or you'll regret it. Also, I'd be VERY surprised if there aren't codes for garages or code "doesn't apply". With those kind of temp variances you'll get a ton of condensation, as well, cars melt when they come inside, so you'll want a fan moving air through it. Lastly, VB helps keep drafts down and heat in.

"There are two basic types of spray foam insulation: Open Cell and Closed Cell.
Open cell is softer and lighter and incorporates air for the insulator. It’s less costly than Closed cell, but it will retain moisture if it gets wet and it will require the use of 6ml vapour barrier—just like batt insulation." From Make IT Right/Resources
http://makeitright.ca/Mike_Holmes_Online/view_resource.php?article_id=1188&cat=13&page=2

 

[JimVonBaden]

Unfortunately, at this point, you have only two choices. Rip out the sheetrock, or seal the sheetrock tight. The second option is the simplest, though not the most effeciant.

Jim

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Exactly. I can't believe guys saying you "should" be OK with no vapor barrier. I think you have to build for "in-case", or you'll regret it. Also, I'd be VERY surprised if there aren't codes for garages or code "doesn't apply". With those kind of temp variances you'll get a ton of condensation, as well, cars melt when they come inside, so you'll want a fan moving air through it. Lastly, VB helps keep drafts down and heat in.

"There are two basic types of spray foam insulation: Open Cell and Closed Cell.
Open cell is softer and lighter and incorporates air for the insulator. It’s less costly than Closed cell, but it will retain moisture if it gets wet and it will require the use of 6ml vapour barrier—just like batt insulation." From Make IT Right/Resources
http://makeitright.ca/Mike_Holmes_Online/view_resource.php?article_id=1188&cat=13&page=2

I think you forgot one important fact. It is a garage with a BIG OVERHEAD DOOR! Even the best insulated and sealed door won't come close to the efficacy/R-value of the existing foam.

I would be speaking out of my **** if I were to tell you what codes in Ontario call for in a garage space but common sense tells me that that they probably only require living space be insulated/vapor barrier-ed. I would guess it was a builder's perk or option to insulate that space.

Before you go gangster on your parents super I would just call or stop by your zoning office and ask them what the code is. Might want to check online as well. Many municipalities publish building codes online.

 

[gudmundur]

ok ewen the vapour barier is not demanded by your local construction code you should have it , you can never seal the sheetrock enough so it does not led some wind throug , for example where you put electrical sockets in the wind will come throug there ,

 

[JimVonBaden]

ok ewen the vapour barier is not demanded by your local construction code you should have it , you can never seal the sheetrock enough so it does not led some wind throug , for example where you put electrical sockets in the wind will come throug there ,

They make insulators for that, but you would need that for any type of vapor barrior. The electrical is always a source of air leaks.

In a house it would be worth doing something with. In a garage, even heated, probably not.

Jim

 

[buddyboy]

I think you forgot one important fact. It is a garage with a BIG OVERHEAD DOOR! Even the best insulated and sealed door won't come close to the efficacy/R-value of the existing foam.

even if you sprayed the walls and windows with liquid rubber to seal them up, you'd still have massive air leaks around and thru those overhead doors.

inside of a home is different then the inside of a garage, even if the garage is conditioned your air exchanged will be greater in the garage than the house.

maybe ask the builder how long they have been doing this. hopefully you can go visit some of the conditioned garages built 4 to 5 years ago and see if any problems have arisen in real use situations and what if anything you should do to in your case.

 

[slickgt1]

I agree, no amount of insulation and vapor barriers will help, or be anything significant. Don't waste your money at this point. You still have a big door that you have to open and close. Even if just to pull your car out, you will vent your garage in 30 sec. Don't stress it.

 

[Kevin54]

If you have a garage and it's drywalled, and you live in an area where you have a lot of snow, you don't want a vapor barrier on the inside and pull a snowy car in plus have heat on. If you do, you are creating a greenhouse in essence. You would be better off installing Tyvek on the outside so it slow any air infiltration but is still permeable enough to let things breath.

If you would install a plastic barrier under the drywall, make sure you use a mildew proof drywall just as Mike Holmes does in bathrooms that he has to redo. I would also use a good latex gloss outdoor paint on the inside to help keep any moisture from penetrating the drywall.

Don't get me wrong, I'm speaking strictly if you are going to have moisture and heat in the garage in the winter.

 

[m0823]

I sent an email to a building inspector for the municipality. Hopefully i get a reply soon. I appreciate all the info

 

[dare23]

Let us know what they say.

 

[e-tek]

I think you forgot one important fact. It is a garage with a BIG OVERHEAD DOOR! Even the best insulated and sealed door won't come close to the efficacy/R-value of the existing foam.

In a house it would be worth doing something with. In a garage, even heated, probably not.
Jim

With all due respect gentlemen (), everyone of us who has a heated garage - with BIG OVERHEAD DOORS - would be well-off to (and most are) insulate and install the best insualtion and VB to get the most R-value where they can. The VB not only stops moisture, but draft, which is a major contributor to loss of heat. That's why guys even go with 2x6 walls, giving up interior space for more wall insulation. In my shop I have 2 (16x9) OH doors but still insulated the heck out of the walls and ceiling - with VB. Even with a little leakage around the doors, I don't want to add to that through the walls.

But in the end I agree with you about what he can do now. If the DW is up, seal any gaps and paint it with an oil based or high-seal latex to minimize moisture and draft. Also, a fan running when the car is wet is critical. Mine is on a humidistat (tho I often override it manually).

 

[JTG]

One question that hasn't been asked is:

What are his plans for the garage?
Will he be pulling a car in and out every day?
Or will there be a project car in there so the overhead doors are not opened often?

If the overhead doors are going to be used a lot then I wouldn't worry about pulling down the sheetrock and just do what e-tek suggested and seal gaps and paint.

If the doors won't be opened much and the heat will be running alot making it more like an interior space I think you might want to look into a true vapor barrier.

 

[m0823]

So i got no answer from 2 different municipal building inspectors but i finally got a reply from the "chief building official". He says because the garage willl be heated a vapour barrier is required on the exterior walls (Ontario Building Code 9.25.4). Now to contact the builder.

 

[Highbeam]

The vapor barrier is not to keep the heat in the garage. It also has nothing to do with fresh air or humidity in the garage. The reason we install vapor barriers is to prevent vapor laden, warm, garage air from entering and cooling within the wall to the point where water condenses into liquid within the wall. Water in your wall makes mold and rot. Anytime you have a temperature differential between the inside of the wall and the outside, you have a potential for this condensation to occur. We want dry walls.

 

[csp]

Did the builder know it was to be heated before hanging the drywall? I hope so.

 

[m0823]

Did the builder know it was to be heated before hanging the drywall? I hope so.

Well they did run the capped gas line to the garage.

 

[csp]

That is implied, so they could say it wasn't in their contract/build specs. Good luck with that.

 

[Woodsrider]

I live in Ontario and neither of my last two houses have had vapor barrier installed in the insulated garage. Any builder I've talked to won't install it or highly recommends against it due to our climate.
You are going to wake up to rusty tools and cars unless you can control the humidity.
Ontario Building Code for reference.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_060350_e.htm

 

[DPelletier]

Wow,

1) Code or not isn't the issue; do what's right

2) Highbeam said it best; vapor barrier isn't to keep heat in, it's to keep the walls dry

3) humidity issues need to be dealt with appropriately (fans, etc.) not bandaided by trying to allow it to escape through the walls

4) I would only have one question and that is whether or not the spray foam was open or closed cell; closed cell foam expands rapidly and is also cut flush with the studs exposing open bubbles...unless I've missed something I don't see where the OP has determined exactly what product was used. If it's closed cell, it's considered to have an integral vapor barrier, if it is open cell, I'd add poly.

my 2 cents,

Dave

 

[m0823]

4) I would only have one question and that is whether or not the spray foam was open or closed cell; closed cell foam expands rapidly and is also cut flush with the studs exposing open bubbles...unless I've missed something I don't see where the OP has determined exactly what product was used. If it's closed cell, it's considered to have an integral vapor barrier, if it is open cell, I'd add poly.

my 2 cents,

Dave

I have brought a piece to someone with knowledge in this and verified it is open cell.

 

[jjpp]

This is a topic of great discussion of what is the best practice, but all that I would be concerned with is, is it done to code? Homes and garages have been built for years without using vapor barrier and have survived. It may not be the best for efficiency but vapor barrier becomes much more important when the space becomes well sealed and with a roll up garage door that will never be the case.
If it is built to code and there wasn't a request in writing for vapor barrier the builder did nothing wrong and owes you nothing.

 

[DPelletier]

If it is built to code and there wasn't a request in writing for vapor barrier the builder did nothing wrong and owes you nothing.

Agreed.

I'd still want the vapor barrier though ....not sure if I'd want it bad enough to rip off the drywall and add it myself though. Has it been taped?

Dave

 

[m0823]

Agreed.

I'd still want the vapor barrier though ....not sure if I'd want it bad enough to rip off the drywall and add it myself though. Has it been taped?

Dave

It has been taped, but looks like ****. Clearly hired different drywall guys for the garage. Thats one more reason why i want the drywall taken. None of the joints are staggered in there, the taping is disgusting, and no vapour barrier. I just want it done so even if i end up having to throw some money at them since they will probably say this is how they drywall the garages.

 

[jjpp]

That is how they drywall most garages, 1 coat of mud and a quick sand. You have to pay extra for a good finished product.
I'm not saying that your's isn't bad, I haven't seen it but they don't finish a garage like they would a house, unless you pay them to.

 

[JimVonBaden]

That is how they drywall most garages, 1 coat of mud and a quick sand. You have to pay extra for a good finished product.
I'm not saying that your's isn't bad, I haven't seen it but they don't finish a garage like they would a house, unless you pay them to.

That is how they did mine. Very rough.

Jim

 

[m0823]

That is how they drywall most garages, 1 coat of mud and a quick sand. You have to pay extra for a good finished product.
I'm not saying that your's isn't bad, I haven't seen it but they don't finish a garage like they would a house, unless you pay them to.

Believe me the way they did mine is REALLY bad, worse than the previous picture. I just thought it would be better considering it is a high-class 7000 square foot house. I'll update when i get some type of resolution.