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Insulation and A/C

dcg9381

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I think I'm with bluedog on this. Hard to imagine a perfect spray job that assures no interior air will reach sheathing anyplace and not condense. And if you do achieve perfection, you also have to be sure there is no leak letting rain in to sheathing. In either case, it won't dry. And the prospect of stripping roofing, sheathing, and foam is daunting. Now you may get by for 10 or even 20 years, if you're lucky.

All IMHO.
I think of spray foam as "regional" in terms of what you need to do with it. But as long as this space has HVAC it can be dehumidified.
I would not put any type of ventless propane/natural gas heater in it.

Open cell will leak if there is a roof leak, water will come through. Just like regular insulation.
Closed cell will not, so water will travel along the foam to whatever spot where it can drop.

Here we do foam straight to steel R-panel all day long. Decades of this stuff being up and no problems.

Foam is sprayed directly on the OSB roof deck of my home, no problems.

I have foam behind zip-R panel in the walls, no problems, but there was house wrap applied.
 
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bluedog225

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I’ve been thinking over the idea of putting up a thin ply ceiling. Foam on the ceiling and cellulose and traditionally vented above. Paint it with black intumescent paint.

I like the look and good air seal.
 

billconner

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I’ve been thinking over the idea of putting up a thin ply ceiling. Foam on the ceiling and cellulose and traditionally vented above. Paint it with black intumescent paint.

I like the look and good air seal.
So not attic storage, at least not from directly below?

I did wonder if there was another way to access attic for cold storage. Then you have to be sure joists are strong enough for ceiling, insulation, and storage.
 

bluedog225

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Do you mind adding a bit more insight?
Sure. Many folks are on the spray foam bandwagon. Fact is, it’s pretty new on the scene. And installers make more money off spray foam than cellulose or fiberglass.

Yes, it’s good insulation. No question.

However, anything that traps water against wood is a problem for me. I’d 100% go foam on a metal building.

Vented roofs over insulation are 110% proven technology. And cheap.

I’ve got a similar situation as you do. I could spray foam and it would probably work great for the rest of my lifetime. But I just can’t bring myself to do it.

fwiw-I don’t care for a “tight” house either. I want everything to breathe. These hyper efficient houses come with issues. I‘m much more interested in longevity.
 
OP
H

HaroRider

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Would it matter open/closed cell?

I dont think I need it super tight(Its a garage after all) But I want comfort when working in there.
 

bluedog225

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Would it matter open/closed cell?

I dont think I need it super tight(Its a garage after all) But I want comfort when working in there.
I’ve read (here) that open cell lets water drip through so you can ID a leak. But it lets moisture pass up through the foam and holds it against the wood, causing rot.

My old 50’s house has a ton of cellulose on the ceiling. Soffit vents and ridge vents. And walls are not insulated. Electric portion of the bills are less than $100. With a 1995 central air and leaky ducts.

I think those who say the ceiling is the most important heat transfer area are correct.

Blowing a few dozen bags of cellulose is pretty easy. But you have to vent the area over. You could even hold it up with that mesh designed for the purpose. Not sure how that stuff would do long term.
 

dcg9381

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Sure. Many folks are on the spray foam bandwagon. Fact is, it’s pretty new on the scene. And installers make more money off spray foam than cellulose or fiberglass.
I started putting it into my homes over 15 years ago. I don't consider it "new" by any means. Yes, it's expensive, and yes it's more profitable. But it's also quite apparent in energy bills compared to "bat insulation" homes.
However, anything that traps water against wood is a problem for me. I’d 100% go foam on a metal building.
Open cell does not trap water any more than pink fiberglass does. And if it gets wet you can dry it out without damage to the insulation.

I’ve got a similar situation as you do. I could spray foam and it would probably work great for the rest of my lifetime. But I just can’t bring myself to do it.
I've got no beef with either choice, I just want to be clear about the negatives. My garage was mainly done in bat to save money. And the last home I helped with was "hybrid" insulation - both foam and bat... And that garage/house did have a fresh air system / humidity controls.

If you chose closed cell, it'd hold water. Open cell does not. But in either case, if the roof leaks you're kinda screwed regardless of insulation. Only difference is how quickly you'd know the roof was leaking.

fwiw-I don’t care for a “tight” house either. I want everything to breathe. These hyper efficient houses come with issues. I‘m much more interested in longevity.
It takes more than spray foam to build a tight house. It takes a level of attention to detail, high quality exterior doors, high quality windows, sill plate sealers or gaskets, attention to any exterior penetration, doors setup to seal correctly... It's a whole Matt Risinger thing. Build "quality" is probably better up north but down here in the south the trades slap **** together so fast and they ain't doing bids on "tightly sealed" houses because it'd take more time. First house had fresh air system, but turned out to be totally unnecessary and I disabled it. I did not like pulling "fresh air" from the top of my composite roof in the middle of summer.

It's a little different up north, especially if you're "mainly heating" as those systems tend to incur moisture rather than our 95% of the year running HVAC down south. They also tend to be better insulated and often have thicker walls and roofs, so more insulation in general.

But I'm not putting fresh air systems in houses anymore, not down south. At least not in the level of attention to detail that the contractors have around here. The only way you'd know is to do a leak test on a home to actually see how "tight" your house is, but for me it's been pretty unnecessary.

Regardless, whatever you do is going to be an improvement... And probably a big one.
 

My Old Tools

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Just insulate the damn roof any way you want. It will make a huge difference. Mine has 4 inches plus 8 inches of plastic backed fiberglass metal building insulation. The walls just have 4 inches. Makes a huge difference.
 

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billconner

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I'm with blue dog for the most part and worry in colder climates about buoyant warm moist air condensing on cold roof sheathing. That's the fundamentals.

I say about cellulose, which is great insulation and not at all like batts, that I found for 50+ bags it was about same cost to hire it furnished and installed as for me just buying the material, ignoring not having to transport material and transport machine 30 miles twice. Just look into it is all I'm saying, if you go that route.
 

bluedog225

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I started putting it into my homes over 15 years ago. I don't consider it "new" by any means.
15 years isn’t much to go on.

Open cell does not trap water any more than pink fiberglass does. And if it gets wet you can dry it out without damage to the insulation.

I’d not put either up against a roof.

But in either case, if the roof leaks you're kinda screwed regardless of insulation. Only difference is how quickly you'd know the roof was leaking.

I’ve seen some roof leaks decades old that dried out just fine. In a vented space above insulation.

Regardless, whatever you do is going to be an improvement... And probably a big one.
Agreed
 
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dcg9381

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15 years isn’t much to go on.
I guess I can see that being fair compared to many decades of fiberglass and cellulose. But I've never seen the famously threatened "it'll void your steel building warranty" - ever happen... Probably because any roof leak is going to void the warranty of your panels. And I'm suspicious of an industry that also sells "insulation packages". It is starting to change though.

I’d not put either up against a roof.
Because you're afraid of the water being held against roof deck, right? That makes sense to me. But it's solved by open cell.
In residential construction in the south there is a HUGE advantage of spraying the roof deck. Our air handlers are almost always in the attic. And bat-insulated attic temps can get well over 120 degrees. So you've basically got your AC system and all of the associated air paths installed in an oven. It's remarkably inefficient. Dropping the temperature of that attic space results in noticeable energy savings. Might not be the right solution for up north though.. It's certainly not the cheapest.

I’ve seen some roof leaks decades old that dried out just fine. In a vented space above insulation.
And I've had roof (well, 2nd floor exterior leak) in a foam insulated house. Pull down the drywall, let the open cell foam dry out, fix leak, done... Probably wouldn't work out so well with closed cell.. If you could find the source of the leak.
 

Firebrick43

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I have a friend that spray foamed his pole barn and absolutely loved it. After 10 years one day he notice one of the side sheets was showing rust thru up high under the eves

A leak under a screw or two had allowed water on top of the foam. As they dug into it one whole corner of the barn including three poles and several trusses were rotted out. He said all the foam in that corner was saturated with water for several inches. Ripping it out was hell


Even perfectly made xps and eps foam sheets will absorb some water if submerged. Foam sheets in a building however if done right let the water run out. Spray foam however bloacks all escape.

The closed cell is not perfect especially in on site in variable conditions, with less than ideal equipment and installers with variable experience/training.

So should you do it? Batts should not be installed in a cathedral ceiling unless the are vented top to bottom. If you think you have to have the space regardless of the cost then go with spray foam. But make sure you roof is impeccable and plan on keeping it that way as woe to you if there is a leak.
 

My Old Tools

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About 90% of the shops in the south, if insulated, are insulated with vinyl backed fiberglass wrapped on the frame before the panels are applied. A good number of those are then air conditioned. I have yet to see one with mold.
 

Innovate1

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I just looked up the OPs weather. As of 10 AM it's 70 degrees with a dew point of 53 (most studies find dew point below 60 comfortable). The high temp will be 77 today so a good day to open the place up (if possible) and not have any heating or cooling bills. We use our whole house fan a lot this time of year.

But you also need to be able to close the place up to heat and cool for more extreme days. I agree the ceiling is the worst offender and where to start.

Sheet metal ceiling with blown in insulation is going to be your cheapest route. You need to cut some vents for the attic too.
 
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