insulation and heat install by a novice

[racerboy]

Hello everyone, Ive been a bit of lurker here for some time and have a couple of questions regarding a new (to me) 30x30x12 shop that is attached tot he house I just bought. The shop already has a bathroom (with baseboard heat) and a sub panel. I've already added a couple of extra outlets and got my compressor wired. However, I have some questions about insulation and heating:

1. The fellow that built the shop wound up selling the house before he finished off it off, and the couple I bought the house from never used the shop, so so the walls are still bare. I've never installed insulation, so was just wondering if this was something I could do myself and if there was anything special I needed. How do I know what R-value to buy? I live in north New Jersey.

2. Once the insulation is installed, I'm assuming that I need to finish off the walls. Again, not something I've ever done before. Would it be better to use sheetrock or plywood for this? One wall of the shop (the one that is adjacent to the house garage) is already insulated and is finished off with plywood, so that is why I am asking about this.

2. Once I get the insulation done, I am going to start looking for a way to heat the shop. I was originally think of installing an oil-fired furnace that hangs from the ceiling (there is no natural gas where I live) but my oil company recommended adding another zone to the burner and mounting a hot-water coil-based heater. Would this be enough to heat the shop? This is not something I would hire a plumber to install.

I probably have 100 more questions, but I'll stop here for now.

Appreciate any feedback

Frank

 

[racerboy]

Here are a couple of pictures of the bare walls. Also one of the ceiling. I'm guessing this needs to be insulated as well? There is a big room over the garage, but there is currently no way to get to it unless you climb on to the to of the bathroom and then use a ladder to go through a hole in the ceiling. I am told the original intention was to add a door from the master bathroom closet (2nd floor) to break into this room.

 

[Tony_G]

It is very easy to install insulation (using batts). You should definitely be able to do it yourself.

As far as the R-value, it looks like they used 2x4s for the walls, I think the max you can get (using batts) is R-15, which should be enough in NJ.

As far as the ceiling, you can either use batts or some kind of spray foam/blow in insulation. If you use batts, you do need to finish the ceiling (completely finished is the way to go anyway), otherwise, they will start falling off at some point.

To finish the walls, it is up to you. I like using drywall, others around here like using plywood/OSB. Once it is all painted, etc it should be hard to tell the difference.

Good luck and don't forget to share your progress.

 

[theoldwizard1]

How do I know what R-value to buy?

First decide which kind of insulation you want. Fiberglass rolls or batts are the most common and can be a reasonable DIY job. It appears there is no ceiling. Are you planning on installing one ? Blown in cellulose or fiberglass is cheap and easy if you have a ceiling.

How much ? ALL THAT YOU CAN AFFORD AND WILL FIT PROPERLY !

"You buy insulation once. You pay for fuel to heat or cool every time the thermostat calls for it !"

 

[racerboy]

Thanks for the feedback. Do I just buy the insulation from Lowes/Home Depot or is there a better place to get it?

Do I install it with the paper side facing me, or should I see the insulation side? None of the walls bare have any living space on the other side.

I read about 'vapor barriers'. Do I need that over the insulation as well?

One correction to my original post regarding the heater install. This is something I would hire a plumber to do. The word 'not' got stuck in there somehow.



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[volleyball]

You need to decide heat before you insulate the walls. Any piping/wiring should be done first.
What are you using the space for and how often? Every day or once in awhile?
If you do a boiler zone what about the zone freezing if not on all the time?
For occasional use, electric baseboard will most likely be the cheapest. For use daily all winter, less so. And what about summer? Maybe a mini split will be your best bet. heat and A/C.
Drywall on the walls and ceiling will give you a fire rating. You really need that with an attached garage. You can cover it with plywood or metal or whatever if you want.
Have you decided on all your electric needs? You will want that before the walls goes up.
If you don't need the shop this winter, it may be best to wait awhile to do this that way you can plan everything. Not that you cannot rip out half of it in the future to redo.
I am partial to hi density foam. Pricey but does a great job.

 

[Gerald O]

The wall shared with the house must be drywalled for fire separation.

 

[racerboy]

You need to decide heat before you insulate the walls. Any piping/wiring should be done first.
What are you using the space for and how often? Every day or once in awhile?
If you do a boiler zone what about the zone freezing if not on all the time?
For occasional use, electric baseboard will most likely be the cheapest. For use daily all winter, less so. And what about summer? Maybe a mini split will be your best bet. heat and A/C.
Drywall on the walls and ceiling will give you a fire rating. You really need that with an attached garage. You can cover it with plywood or metal or whatever if you want.
Have you decided on all your electric needs? You will want that before the walls goes up.
If you don't need the shop this winter, it may be best to wait awhile to do this that way you can plan everything. Not that you cannot rip out half of it in the future to redo.
I am partial to hi density foam. Pricey but does a great job.

My long term plans for the garage include a two-post lift on one bay and a four-post in another. I do a fair amount of car and motorcycle work, so I would expect to be in the garage on a pretty regular basis.

The bathroom in the garage already has a zone of baseboard heat. Does my water heater have anything to do with how the heat works? I think I need a bigger one because I can't even fill the jacuzzi before I run out of hot water.

Is the hi-density foam another type of insulation? Is it better than the batt stuff?

 

[Cougar]

The wall shared with the house must be drywalled for fire separation.

X2 Use fire rated drywall. (Type X)

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

The bathroom in the garage already has a zone of baseboard heat. Does my water heater have anything to do with how the heat works? I think I need a bigger one because I can't even fill the jacuzzi before I run out of hot water.

How do you heat your house? Forced air? Hot water? Oil, electricity, propane, or wood? You mentioned you don't have access to natural gas.

Is the "baseboard heat" in the shop bathroom hot water or electric?

What fires your water heater? Oil, electricity, propane, or wood? How many gallons is it?

I think having this information will help the rest of us give you good recommendations.

The wall between the garage and the house (living area) should/must be covered with a fire barrier (as previously noted). I think the requirement is 3/4" sheet rock with the jointed filled and taped. This wall should run from the top of the concrete in the shop/garage to the peak of the roof. This is building code in most if not all municipalities (common sense if you think about it ... especially if you're going to make a working shop). This deficiency should have been picked up by the home inspector prior to you closing on the house.

 

[TractorJeff]

My brother put in a Jacuzzi, then had to install an 80 gallon Hot Water Heater to replace his 50 gallon.
Times 4 on the sheetrock wall separating the garage and house. I think it may only need to be 5/8" but if 3/4" was available. I'd install it!

 

[Jess]

You are lucky that the shop, as it sits is a blank slate and an opportunity to do it right. Take your time, plan it out and complete each stage when you can afford it. Wiring, plumbing, insulation, vapour barrier(if any) ceiling and then wall sheathing. your need for fire resilence will determine what you use. I did all 5/8 drywall and had it put up by a crew in just over a day. It will be a nice space when done and add value to the property. Have fun!

 

[DC73]

Thanks for the feedback. Do I just buy the insulation from Lowes/Home Depot or is there a better place to get it?

Do I install it with the paper side facing me, or should I see the insulation side? None of the walls bare have any living space on the other side.

I read about 'vapor barriers'. Do I need that over the insulation as well?

For best price, definitely check out Lowe's and Home Depot but get some prices from some of the vendors that cater to builders. We have 84 Lumber around here and they beat HDs and Lowe's prices by quite a bit for the quantity I needed for my shop.

Paper side facing the interior.

The need for vapor barriers can be highly dependent on climate and construction details. Would recommend you do some reading on GreenBuildingAdvisor.com. They also have a Q&A forum where you can post questions to some building science gurus who hang out there.

DC

 

[racerboy]

How do you heat your house? Forced air? Hot water? Oil, electricity, propane, or wood? You mentioned you don't have access to natural gas.

Is the "baseboard heat" in the shop bathroom hot water or electric?

What fires your water heater? Oil, electricity, propane, or wood? How many gallons is it?

I think having this information will help the rest of us give you good recommendations.

The wall between the garage and the house (living area) should/must be covered with a fire barrier (as previously noted). I think the requirement is 3/4" sheet rock with the jointed filled and taped. This wall should run from the top of the concrete in the shop/garage to the peak of the roof. This is building code in most if not all municipalities (common sense if you think about it ... especially if you're going to make a working shop). This deficiency should have been picked up by the home inspector prior to you closing on the house.

House is hot-water baseboard heat. I have an oil burner in basement and 550 gallon oil tank in the garage, which is adjacent to the shop.

The shop bathroom is baseboard and run off the house burner. The water heater is not very big. I'm not sure of the size, but I can't fill the jacuzzi up without running out of hot water. I planned on upping the size of the hot water heater anyway, but now it sounds like it may benefit me for both my bathtub and my garage. . A friend of mine suggested running another zone and just installing baseboard heat in the shop but it seems like it would take a long time to heat it up that way, but I could be wrong. I still like the idea that the oil service guy told me about, a hanging heater that has a hot-water coil and a fan that blows air through the coil. I'm sure there's a technical name for this type of heater.

Today I used the 'Great Stuff' foam to seal off some air gaps and seams.

 

[75gmck25]

Baseboard heaters get hot fairly quickly, but also cool off very quickly. If you could find some reclaimed old cast iron radiators, they work much better to hold heat for a long period of time. They take a while to heat up, but are about the most comfortable heat you can find. However, they also usually run at a lower temp than baseboard heat, so it might be hard to mix them into an existing baseboard system.

I also assume you probably want to heat the garage to a different temp than the house (lower in the garage), which may make it harder to just add a new zone to the house system.

Fiberglas insulation does not do a good job of stopping air infiltration, so you need to seal everything up first (spray foam joints, etc.), including figuring out how you will close gaps around the main doors when you are working. After wiring and installing sheetrock you should also seal around any penetrations you have for the receptacles and switches. You want to keep the entire exterior wall as a an air sealed, insulated enclosure. Then add a small forced ventilation system so that you can chose the vent the garage whenever you need it.

When you finish the walls I prefer sheetrock, since I can paint it a light color and keep good light reflection. However, try to figure out where you may install things on the walls (cabinets, fixtures, etc.) and nail horizontal 2"x6"s or 2" x8"s between the studs. This will give you a lot of flexibility for hanging cabinets and brackets on the walls.

If I was starting out new with electrical wiring I would also consider installing all of it in surface mounted conduit instead of in the walls. I don't mind seeing conduit in a garage, and long term maintenance would be so much easier if all the wiring conduit was visible, had space for more wires, and had accessible junction boxes. Make sure you also consider what type of low voltage wiring you want to install for cable, internet, security systems, etc., and where you want to put your "wiring closet" area for the low voltage devices.

Bruce

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

House is hot-water baseboard heat. I have an oil burner in basement and 550 gallon oil tank in the garage, which is adjacent to the shop.

The shop bathroom is baseboard and run off the house burner. The water heater is not very big. I'm not sure of the size, but I can't fill the jacuzzi up without running out of hot water.

What fuels the current water heater? Any reason why the oil fired boiler doesn't supply your domestic hot water? If it did, you'd probably never run out of hot water ... even after filling the Jacuzzi. A friend who used to spec hot water heating systems for houses said that they would put a small hot water baseboard radiator between the Jacuzzi or regular tub and the wall to keep the tub/Jacuzzi warm. Maybe you can do that.

Too bad you can't put radiant heat in the floor of the garage/shop. That would be slick.

The hot water heat exchanger that hangs from the ceiling sounds like a good idea, investigate it for use. But keep in mind that the hot water won't get as hot as the heat exchanger for an oil or natural/propane gas fired furnace so your recovery/heat up won't be as fast.

 

[racerboy]

Baseboard heaters get hot fairly quickly, but also cool off very quickly. If you could find some reclaimed old cast iron radiators, they work much better to hold heat for a long period of time. They take a while to heat up, but are about the most comfortable heat you can find. However, they also usually run at a lower temp than baseboard heat, so it might be hard to mix them into an existing baseboard system.

I also assume you probably want to heat the garage to a different temp than the house (lower in the garage), which may make it harder to just add a new zone to the house system.

Fiberglas insulation does not do a good job of stopping air infiltration, so you need to seal everything up first (spray foam joints, etc.), including figuring out how you will close gaps around the main doors when you are working. After wiring and installing sheetrock you should also seal around any penetrations you have for the receptacles and switches. You want to keep the entire exterior wall as a an air sealed, insulated enclosure. Then add a small forced ventilation system so that you can chose the vent the garage whenever you need it.

When you finish the walls I prefer sheetrock, since I can paint it a light color and keep good light reflection. However, try to figure out where you may install things on the walls (cabinets, fixtures, etc.) and nail horizontal 2"x6"s or 2" x8"s between the studs. This will give you a lot of flexibility for hanging cabinets and brackets on the walls.

If I was starting out new with electrical wiring I would also consider installing all of it in surface mounted conduit instead of in the walls. I don't mind seeing conduit in a garage, and long term maintenance would be so much easier if all the wiring conduit was visible, had space for more wires, and had accessible junction boxes. Make sure you also consider what type of low voltage wiring you want to install for cable, internet, security systems, etc., and where you want to put your "wiring closet" area for the low voltage devices.

Bruce

Hanks Bruce. I actually like the look of the conduit. TO me, it give it sort of an 'industrial' look. I realize this is all subjective. In my last house, my garage was already finished when i bought it, but only had one outlet. I ran metal conduit along the walls and added several more outlets. After I did this, neighbor, who said he knew a lot about electrical code told me that I wasn't supposed to run wiring through the metal conduit, that I was supposed to use plastic, because the metal would heat up the wires or something. I never changed it out, but am sill not sure if what i did was 'correct'. I still have a lot of that metal conduit (it's about 1/2 in. (I think) and is very thin. It's nothing like black-pipe or anything like that. I wouldn't be opposed to doing the same thing in this garage/shop.

Does the insertion of the 2x6 or 2x8 make it easier to install cabinets? And do I attach them by nailing them diagonally though the horizontal piece into the vertical 2x4, or do i nail through the 2x4 into the horizontal 2x6? Sorry if that is a dumb question.

 

[racerboy]

Here is the wall I was going to start with. This is an outside wall. I still need to seal some of the gaps on the plywood.

According to my measurements the vertical space is about 106" and the wood is 16" center to center. I'm assuming that the standard batt insulation will fit, I just need to cut it to length?




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[mrpizza]

I would spray a couple inches of closed cell foam in the whole thing. Vapor barrier and insulation. Air leaks will kill your energy usage.

 

[Firebrick43]

Also look into wet sprayed cellulose insulation. Many insulation contractors can install insulation as cheap as you can buy it.

 

[racerboy]

Also look into wet sprayed cellulose insulation. Many insulation contractors can install insulation as cheap as you can buy it.

Is there a big difference between closed-cell foam insulation and the wet sprayed cellulose?

Also, and my apologies if this is a dumb question, but do the walls have to be finished in order to spray on the insulation?


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[racerboy]

I just watched a couple of YouTube videos and saw that you just spray on the insulation between the studs. Is this something a novice could do if I decide to go this route, or just contract it out? I imagine it is going to be pricey.


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[H-D Dad]

Do a search for Froth-Pac for spray foam. My contractor had a minimum charge. Some neighbors and I split the cost. It came to $1.15 sq Ft. I couldn't DIY for that price.

 

[racerboy]

HI everyone. I'm back to this board and have now finished all of the electrical work in may garage, as well as installed the two-post lift. I know want to begin the insulation/sheetrock project. I had a contractor give me an estimate of $7800 to do the insulation, sheetrock and paint. This seems a bit steep to me, and even if it that is a good price, I don't have that right now ro spend (my lift cost me almost that much).

Based on a lot of the reading I did on this board, it seems like R-13 would be good for my walls (2x4 that are 16" on center) and R-30 for my ceiling. My ceiling joists are about 9" tall, so I'm assuming the R-30 will fit without compressing too much. Here are the dimensions that I have to insulate and sheetrock:

Back wall - 19' long x 9' high (about 11' are taken up by bathroom)
Right wall - 30' long x 9' high
Left wall - 14' long x 9' high (about half of this wall is already insulated because it was the exterior of the garage attached to house
Misc. - 6' long x 9' high (between garage doors, edges of garage doors)

The ceiling is a 30x30 square.

If my math is right, I need abut 630 sq. ft of R-13 and 900 sq. ft of R-30.

What thickness sheetrock do I need? I was told by contractor that he was going to do the ceiling in double 5/8 (fire-rated). At some point that may be living space up there, or at least storage. Do I use 5/8 on the wall as well?

Thanks

 

[racerboy]

I looked up the Froth-Pack spray foam kit. IT looks like their 650 kit would just about do my walls (up to 1" thick). Is 1" enough? Would this serve as the 'base' and then would you put batt-rolls on top of this?

I did some reading and it said that the spray-foam at 1" has an R-6 rating. So it seems like if I sprayed this on (a hair over 2") that would serve as both a sealant and insulation. Is my understanding correct?

How do you know how much is an inch when you are spraying (if i go this route)

 

[thammel]

Just a comment...you may want to save $$ by doing it all yourself, but 7800 to do insulation drywall and paint is a very good price for the size of your place.

Tom

 

[chrispyny]

No way would i pay someone to insulate or paint. Sheetrock is another story. It can be messy, dusty, frustrating and cumbersome.

I'd insulate with paper backed insulation for 2x4's from your choice of hardware stores, then let the best contractor you can find do the dry walling and mudding, then paint yourself. You can rent sprayers which make cakework of painting from any tool rental place.

Thats your most affordable and reasonable option.

 

[chrispyny]

No way would i pay someone to insulate or paint. Sheetrock is another story. It can be messy, dusty, frustrating and cumbersome.

I'd insulate with paper backed insulation for 2x4's from your choice of hardware stores, then let the best contractor you can find do the dry walling and mudding, then paint yourself. You can rent sprayers which make cakework of painting from any tool rental place.

Thats your most affordable and reasonable option.

 

[racerboy]

While I still debate whether I will do this or have someone else, I am currently pricing out the three options for insulation - fiberglass. mineral wool od spray foam. I listed them in order of cost, but am interested in getting feedback form this group on the pros/cons of each. I never knew what the Rolux stuff was until I read another post on this forum. Am I overthinking this?

 

[Randy in Maine]

Since you have no insulation essentially in the garage and oil fired hot water heat in the house....

if it were me, I would get a local heating contractor out there and see if your current boiler has some capacity to direct 180º hot water out to the shop where you could just do a hot water radiator with a fan attached. I would plan on 2-3" of closed cell spray foam everywhere with perhaps a total of 6" under the roof with a drywall surface for fire protection. If you just keep the shop at about 60º you should be just fine out there.

 

[racerboy]

So I decided to do The insulation myself and went with Roxul R-15 for the walls. I got the walls done this weekend and started working on the vapor barrier (6 mil). and have some questions.

I did the back wall in two sheets however I think I made the rookie mistake of not overlapping them enough. Rather than pull down the full sheet which is about 14 feet in length can I just pull down the two seams of each sheet and put in a short sheet that crosses three studs underneath both? Then they will overlap by about 16 inches.




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[racerboy]

I have the same question (actually two questions) where the corner meets the existing wall for the bathroom. I didn't cut it long enough. Can I just peel back from that last stud, insert a sheet underneath that covers the two studs and restaple?



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[racerboy]

Is my understanding correct that I need to use tape all along the top seam, the bottom seam and anywhere there are overlaps, as well as around the electrical boxes? Sorry if that's a dumb question but this is the first time I've ever done this.

Is there a specific tape I'm supposed to use?


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[racerboy]

Last question for now. I was planning on using R-30 in the ceiling however when I look up between the I-joists, I see there is less room at the 'top' of each I-joist then in the cavity between the 16 OC studs. Would I have to notch each batt to make it fit?

I don't know if I will use Roxul or fiberglass in ceiling. It will depend on cost.


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[chrispyny]

I dont know what code is in your area, but i have never seen anyone tape at seams for vapor barrier. Mainly because it is labor intensive. However, since this is your house, treat it as such. Tape away until you run out of tape, then tape some more. It cant hurt. Typically i have personally only seen stapes like you have already. But, i overkill EVERYTHING on my house, just like you. So, tape CAN'T hurt. Do it.

I see nothing wrong with your plan where you shorted yourself. Peel back, add more, restaple, and tape. The taping ensures an airtight seal. It's critical for peak performance of your insulation, and of course preventing mold in your walls from condensation. You are doing a fine job.

As far as your ceiling, i would have to see a pic to really comprehend that part. But, if you have attic access, i suggest you blow in insulation. I blew in roughly r70 in my attic this past sept of 2016. My house is a raised ranch. I purchased in march of 2012. The summers were BRUTAL. I found a mere r11 in the attic between the floor joists. My roof only had 2 small gable vents on each end. I got a new roof with ridge vent (shinglevent II, the best) along my 40 feet of ridge, had roofers install new vented soffit, installed soffit baffles in attic, stapled radiant foil barrier from atticfoil.com to the rafters just shy of ridge, blew in r70 of pink atticat insulation, and i am living large. This Spring my utility company sent me my average usage of gas and electric for the winter in comparison to neighbors in my area which have similar houses, and i was in the upper 90th percentile. I was more efficient than 95+ out of 100 of my neighbors. And my home was built in 1971.

 

[chrispyny]

Dang, all that typing for nothing. I went back and see your ibeam wood rafters. I would get the thickest pink insulation i could find, the appropriate width between the rafters, and just push the insulation in place. If you have to, double up, so if you are placing r19 for 16" spacing, and the gap is deep enough, place one layer of insulation without paper backing up first, then the next with paper backing. Then more vapor barrier if you wish, and then drywall.
A new thing guys are doing here is corrigated sheet metal on cielings. Goes up fast, reflects light well, and looks kinda cool. No dry wall mess or painting to deal with. Search for it here.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311797

 

[racerboy]

That corrugated sheet metal looks awesome! Do you think I could do something like that myself?

I finished the vapor barrier on the walls today except for this one section that has a loly-column. Would you wrap the plastic so the column is behind the plastic or try and get the plastic to slip behind so the column is exposed?




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[GasNSteering]

Was anything done to insulate the cinder block?

 

[racerboy]

I’m not sure about the cinder block. It was already in place when I moved in.

 

[racerboy]

I have a room above the shop (30x30). That room is also not insulated. There is really no access to it yet. One day it will be a man cave of sorts. Should I insulate the ceiling in that room as well as the ceiling in garage, or will just doing garage suffice for now?