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INSULATION DEBATE....AGAIN

Sumboodie

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AK
7', which was what is what's called for in my location.

No frost wall, just thickened edge slab.
Interesting.

Did 2ft on my old place, seemed like it was a waste of foam.

This place doesn't have it and the snow melts no different near the building.
If anything, this one is better, can stand barefoot near the walls inside and the slab is still warm.
Old place would be ice cold.
 
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AEAdam

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May 27, 2023
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SE PA
We are doing a barn conversion. We excavated the existing floors, installed the plumbing drains, then put down 4” of gravel, tamped it, then moisture barrier. We brought that up the walls. Then 4” of XPS. I taped the seams, but that was probably overkill. Then 6” metal mesh, then 1/2” PEX A clipped to the mesh then concrete.

The hot water for the tubes is powered by these tiny electric boilers. Installation of the tubing was super easy. Did 1800sqft in 1.5 days.

Not done haven’t turned it on yet. But the floor was poured last year, and we polished it. Looks great. Hasn’t cracked aside from a few hairlines.
 

billconner

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Jul 20, 2021
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Thousand Islands NYS
There will be no footer around the perimeter except for the cookies that support the perma-columns. Are you saying I should wrap those and out horizontally outside of the building?
The post frame part if those footings - cookies - are below frost don't need insulation. But those posts are not supporting the slab, so I would want the slab protected from frost, especially in a dwelling. (Maybe not in a shop.) Frost can extend from exterior ground under slab edge. I believe a shallow frost protected foundation approach is simplest.

Just for fun, you might look into foamed glass aggregate for insulation and slab base. Glavel is one trade name. Cost will depend on how far you are from a manufacturer.
 
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Airforce_NavyDAD

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The Region
The post frame part if those footings - cookies - are below frost don't need insulation. But those posts are not supporting the slab, so I would want the slab protected from frost, especially in a dwelling. (Maybe not in a shop.) Frost can extend from exterior ground under slab edge. I believe a shallow frost protected foundation approach is simplest.

Just for fun, you might look into foamed glass aggregate for insulation and slab base. Glavel is one trade name. Cost will depend on how far you are from a manufacturer.
How interesting.
 

theoldwizard1

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Feb 22, 2011
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SE MI
My auxiliary will be an HW coil in the duct tied into a small boiler system for DHW and Backup heat.
And what powers the boiler, electricity ?

Any building whose contents, including plumbing, that can not withstand at least a 24 hour electric outage, needs a non-electric BACKUP heat source.

Yes, a forced air furnace requires electricity, but a small generator will run that.
 

Sumboodie

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AK
Beat pump that reate both hot air and heat water!

These have been for sale in other parts of the world for years. Just recently showing up in the US
A complete 2nd system makes me feel better, but here if the heat goes out, it can be a HUGE deal with frozen pipes, etc.

I have onky 1 boiler for my heat, natural gas, but adding a used oil fired one.

My old place had a natural gas boiler as well as primary heat from a Blaze King wood stove. It saved the place a few years ago.when power was out several days and my gen set failed. Was -10* and 50-70mph winds, near 100mph gusts.
 

hh76

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Nov 9, 2010
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3,439
Location
NE Wisconsin
Interesting.

Did 2ft on my old place, seemed like it was a waste of foam.

This place doesn't have it and the snow melts no different near the building.
If anything, this one is better, can stand barefoot near the walls inside and the slab is still warm.
Old place would be ice cold.
I'm guessing it was overkill, especially with the great drainage in that area, but I figured I may as well follow the worst-case scenarios and never look back.
 

billconner

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Location
Thousand Islands NYS
Two good free sources of info on shallow frost protected foundations:

Basics of Frost Protected Shallow Foundation Design

and

Design and Construction of Frost-Protected Shallow Foundations

a.k.a. ASCE 32-1
 
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Airforce_NavyDAD

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The Region
Beat pump that reate both hot air and heat water!

These have been for sale in other parts of the world for years. Just recently showing up in the US
These have been around for years. Water Furnace Synergy was one of the first almost 20 years ago. We installed tons of them over the years. The same problem persists... They cannot heat air and heating water at the same time. The desuperheater (Domestic Hot Water) generator will generate some in heating season, but your Discharge Air temp suffer a few degrees which already may be in issue with Ground Source HP's.
 

NUTTSGT

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Northern Central Ohio
These have been around for years. Water Furnace Synergy was one of the first almost 20 years ago. We installed tons of them over the years. The same problem persists... They cannot heat air and heating water at the same time. The desuperheater (Domestic Hot Water) generator will generate some in heating season, but your Discharge Air temp suffer a few degrees which already may be in issue with Ground Source HP's.
I'd that your given profession ?
 

NUTTSGT

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Northern Central Ohio
It is indeed.
If you would have mentioned it previously when you talked about what you were planning on using for heat, it probably would have given your post some credit.

This place is full of some very knowledgeable members and will give plenty of free advice. Some are professional in their careers and others are serious DIYers.
 
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Airforce_NavyDAD

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How would my background determine the credibility of my posts? I asked questions regarding slab insulation for which my knowledge level was very little.
 

billconner

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Jul 20, 2021
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Thousand Islands NYS
Good questions. I just think of this place like the local tavern in the evening, and discussions wander. You were clear about no radiant heat yet we went there anyways. Nice to know we have another professional HVAC person here. And I'll goggle water furnace since I'm clueless on that. Now, keeping the sound of them out of occupiable space, that I can help with. Not usually a shop concern.
 
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