insulation / drywall questions

[redline9k]

just moved into a new house and putting the workshop in the 35x30 garage. Currently everything is just rough 2x4 framing. Im thinking its time to insulate and drywall the entire place before I put in permanent workbenches, but not sure which products to use.

I dont plan to fully heat the space, just a portable heater when necessary in the winter time, and cooling will be via windows and ceiling fans, so im not sure how much condensation I have to worry about. Our weather is all over the place, from 0 in the winter to 100 in the summer (St Louis) and about as humid as it gets during the warmer months.

Should I use paper faced insulation or regular bats? vapor barrier before the drywall? Im leaning towards frugal, but not junk and nothing I will regret putting up 5-10yrs from now.

Thanks

Doug

 

[Big N8]

post your location it will help us to understand what you need.

 

[z28snksknr]

I would say a vapor barrier would be a good idea given the temp swings a garage will see. Paper faced batts are easier to work with IMO since they can be stapled so they stay in the wall cavity.

 

[Crash913]

I would not skip the vapor barrier especially in a humid area like the Midwest. Mold is not a fun cleanup...

 

[Big N8]

First I would never use paper backed insulation. Mold will grow on the paper if you ever get moisture. Friction fit is just as easy to install. Vapor barrier is a must anywhere you insulate. You can use osb instead of drywall too. That will save because you don't need to tape and mud it.

 

[z28snksknr]

First I would never use paper backed insulation. Mold will grow on the paper if you ever get moisture.

My garage and house attic has paper faced insulation throughout. In fact, it is installed upside down (not by me- PO) and I have not spotted any mold present on the insulation (25 years old).

I'm sincerely curious here, not being a smartass- if what you say is true, why aren't all the houses that use paper faced insulation in attics experiencing mold issues?

 

[Crash913]

My garage and house attic has paper faced insulation throughout. In fact, it is installed upside down (not by me- PO) and I have not spotted any mold present on the insulation (25 years old).

I'm sincerely curious here, not being a smartass- if what you say is true, why aren't all the houses that use paper faced insulation in attics experiencing mold issues?

The paper face should face the drywall/OSB and the vapor barrier should prevent moisture from creating mold on the paper. I didn't think it was an issue either.

 

[redline9k]

ok - ill use friction fit bats, taped vapor barrier and drywall. Ive done the dance plenty of times remodeling, just wasnt sure if I could remove a step or two since its in a non-HVAC garage.

Crash - Miami alum? I got out in 02. I miss the scenery!

 

[Big N8]

Well the vapor barrier should be on the warm side of the insulation so that mean unless you put the paper to the inside it will be in direct contact with the paper.

Mold is not a for sure kind of thing. The OP is looking for a cheap and easy way to get is garage set up. Friction fit is cheaper and works just the same a paper faced. So I offered it. Also why not give mold one less reason to be in your walls.

 

[Big N8]

not to shine anyone her but this is where I got my info.

PDF HERE
oddly enough they used paper back. LOL but friction fit is what i would use.

 

[Crash913]

Crash - Miami alum? I got out in 02. I miss the scenery!

Girls or foliage?

Just graduated in '08

 

[Crash913]

not to shine anyone her but this is where I got my info.

PDF HERE
oddly enough they used paper back. LOL but friction fit is what i would use.

Very informative

This surprised me:

In humid climates where winter temperatures are mild,
as in Houston, the best compromise probably is not to
use a vapor barrier.

 

[dirttracker18]

Always use a vapour barrier and seal it well (tuck tape, not cheap but works well). You are just asking for mould issues if you do not use it. The exterior envelope should breath and allow any moisture from the outside to evaporate. If you intend on heating the interior, even just once in a while, the vapour barrier is a must. Not to mention it is relatively cheap (make sure you get 6mm poly, not the cheap stuff).
I was also a little surprised at the note in there about humid climates. First I heard of that. I gets pretty humid is S. Ontario in the summer and they still use vapour barrier. In fact it is code in Ontario.

 

[redline9k]

Girls or foliage?

Yes.

 

[z28snksknr]

The paper face should face the drywall/OSB and the vapor barrier should prevent moisture from creating mold on the paper. I didn't think it was an issue either.

My understanding as well. I offered up that my insulation was installed (again not by me) in a fashion that would PROMOTE mold growth and it has not happened in 25+ years. No vapor barrier also.

I understand that present construction has better methods available, but I just wanted to point out that paper faced batts w/o vapor barrier has been a standard method around here for 30 years without mold being a prevalent issue.

 

[R6 Racer]

My garage and house attic has paper faced insulation throughout. In fact, it is installed upside down (not by me- PO) and I have not spotted any mold present on the insulation (25 years old).

I'm sincerely curious here, not being a smartass- if what you say is true, why aren't all the houses that use paper faced insulation in attics experiencing mold issues?

Simple : no moisture/water = no mold!
If you don't have any moisture problems you wont have any mold problems. But if you ever did have a moisture problem, say a leaky roof, the moisture would get into the paper covering & the mold would start to grow. Feeding on the paper. Fix the leaky roof & the water prob is over but the mold prob is just getting started, feeding & growing on that paper. All the new paperless products out there today just take away the food that the mold needs to grow!
Cool?

Steve

 

[rburke65]

z28snksknr......What do you mean when you said...."In fact, it is installed upside down"? Do you mean inside out?....wi9th the paper to the outside? How could it be upside down?

 

[usmc_noma]

does it matter if the paper backed insulation is stapled on the face of the studs or inside the pockets (between the studs)? whoever did mine stapled it to the inside of the studs instead of the face.

 

[z28snksknr]

z28snksknr......What do you mean when you said...."In fact, it is installed upside down"? Do you mean inside out?....wi9th the paper to the outside? How could it be upside down?

Remember I'm talking about an attic here, so if the paper is supposed to face down (towards the climate controlled space), it was installed "upside down" with the paper facing up towards the open attic instead of downward towards the drywall. I guess that would be "downside up", but you get the picture.

 

[tcianci]

In the case of paper or kraft faced insulation, the paper facing is in fact the vapor barrier. Polyethylene sheet is used for vapor barrier when an unfaced product is installed. While many argue that paper faced insulation is not a good product, both the paper and the separately-applied poly film do the same thing... retard moisture transfer to the fiberglass. Neither of these materials have anything to do with the formation of mold or the lack thereof. The purpose of the barrier is to keep moisture away from the insulation. When moisture enters the wall cavity (either from the building interior or from the building exterior) and the temperatures are favorable for condensation,which can be the case as the moisture gets closer to the outside of the structure, and therefore into an area of the wall that will be colder than the interior of the building, the resulting liquid (condensed water vapor) degrades the insulating capabilities of the fiberglass. End of story, nothing to do with mold or anything of the sort.
There is a very real lack of the basics of building materials on this site and an abundance of far fetched theory and old wives tales. If mold resulting from moisture in the wall cavity was a big issue with paper faced insulation, why then is the back side of the drywall (also paper) not covered with mold. The fact is that in certain modes of failure, the back side of the drywall does get moldy. This is usually the result of leakage or flooding conditions, not normal room vapor.
If vapor migrating through the wallboard material was the issue many folks think it is, then nearly any disassembly of a typically constructed wall would exhibit mold on the back side of the drywall material. The reason you don't see mold there or on the paper or plastic vapor barrier is that the surface temperature of the back side of the drywall (or the front side of the vapor barrier) is basically the same as the conditioned space, hence no condensation. I have posted this information before...the sole purpose of a vapor barrier, be it poly sheet, or kraft paper is to keep moisture from degrading the insulation value of the fiberglass product.
I am not the end-all when it comes to building technology...nor is this site a substitute for sound technical information that any manufacturer has readily available for all of their products. Do your own homework and reap the benefits.

 

[Big N8]

Isn't that what he is doing here basic homework?
Nothing on the internet is considered fact.
I would be remiss if I said I was an expert. But in the past homes had way more air flow between the outside to the inside. This was do to not sealing with an air barrier. In the last 15-20 years there has been a huge shift to make home more efficient. By doing that we have sealed our home so well that we now have mold issues on old products like paper faced insulation and paper backed drywall. Today they now make drywall that has no paper in it what so ever. This is no wives tale or anything of the sort. This is just what I have seen in new homes here in MN that have had to have the drywall or studs replaced because of to much moisture getting trapped in the wall and freezing and splitting the wood or causing mold.

Misinformation is a big deal and I can say that you can all take this for what it is an internet forum.