Insulation Help for Large Shop

[Alaska4Ever]

Hello all.. I am new.. From Alaska and trying to get my new shop up and running so i have a work place in the long winters. Sorry for the long post but wanted to give some background to try to answer as many questions as possible. I will post some pics as soon as i learn how

Here it goes:
Background:

I live in very small town in remote Interior Alaska where the nearest town to get supplies is Fairbanks 1.5 hours away so obtaining help and rental equipment is either expensive, impossible or both. Winter here begins mid October and last usually late April where temperatures regularly are in the negatives and the dead of winter can be lows of -40 and highs -20 or so.
The barn that is need of insulation is 50 x 80 with 14 foot ceilings and 8/12 roof. The back 1000 square feet is a shed style roof. (50x20)
When i bought it the barn was framed out inside with 2x4x14 walls and the ceiling is ready for ceiling (1x6) on16 inch centers.

Mission: Insulate and finish out the inside. I am looking to keep the temp at least above freezing during the winter so i can store paint and such and hopefully heat it up so i can work out in the long winters. I know it is cold but coming out from negatives even to a 32-40 degree barn is noticeable. Heat will come from coal boiler with additional coal or wood stove.

Money is obviously not unlimited and on a barn this size small increases add up. I would love spray foam but it is not possible or an option. I would also like to be able to accomplish by myself or with my 100 pound wife as a helper due to location. I am also not held to codes but want to not make it dangerous either.

Ceiling… i would like to stay away from sheetrock.. weight and ability to hang without a jack is almost impossible. Will be lots of room above the insulation with such a steep roof pitch.

I was thinking 1 inch foam for the ceiling due to ease of hanging, insulation factor. I plan on blowing fiberglass to insulation no matter what just need a ceiling. Liner panels are an option but at 1.20 sq/ft gets expensive

Walls… could be sheetrock, OSB or liner panels. the main issue with the walls is from the back of the 2x4s to the metal is about 15 inches. I was thinking R 13 in the studs with 1 inch foam on the girts to keep condensation on the metal a bay. Also if this is not enough I can then blow loose insulation in the void if needed. The foam board was planned in the event i do this to keep the cellulose from resting against the metal. I plan on ensuring the vapor barrier is well sealed to assist with sealing the building air envelope.


One Question is do you think the foam is necessary in the walls if I do decide to blow in insulation.

Second question… is foam needed in between the rafters on the shed roof in the back. Thinking that i do this put a ceiling below and blow insulation between. Again the thought is to keep condensation off the roof.

Sorry for the long post but wanted to paint a good picture so people can weigh in on ideas.

thanks

 

[Alaska4Ever]

pics as promised ... hopefully if i did it correcty

 

[CNGsaves]

Beautiful shop and property. LOVE the picture and snow . . . . but then again having lots of snow in Alaska is routine !!

You may be little anxious to get insulated, but you've got to finish rough electrical and lighting BEFORE you jump into insulation. I'd recommend you sketch out drawing of how you'll use shop and develop rough plan. Keep refining plan until you're ready to use free software like Sketch-Up.

With your setup, you should get quotes for spray foam insulation directly applied to inside of metal skin of walls. Just a couple inches would create a nice air envelope to retain heat. Then you could plan thickness of blown densely pack paper cellulose in the stick construction walls behind a vapor barrier (electric outlets sealed in plastic "Canada style" also). With 2 or 3 inches of foam and another 8 to 9 inches of cellulose, you'd have healthy wall insulation. Then wallcovering of sheetrock for fire protection. Cosmetic metal could cover bottom portion of walls up to chair rail height, or as desired.

For ceiling, I'd recommend heavy plastic vapor barrier with all light fixture boxes taped "Canada style" to air envelope seal. Then metal covering for ceiling would go up quick. In attic you could do affordable blown paper cellulose to thickness providing R50 to R60. You'd need to also ventilate the attic area so roof stays cold . . . thus gable vents or top-side vents.

Good luck planning shop improvements. Any pics of caribou wandering onto the property ??

 

[TheEquineFencer]

To cover the roof or walls on the "cheap", look at using Lauan Plywood, around here it's just over $5 a 4x8 sheet. I just rebuilt the interior of my G/F's horse trailer with it in the living area. It looks pretty good too. You can shoot it up with an air brad gun or staples. Paint it before you put it up, it'll save a lot of time.

 

[jgorm]

Spray foam insulation is very expensive. From what I can tell it's ~$1 per 12x12x1". I'm in a similar situation where I'm going to insulate behind the 2x6 walls with roll insulation, then put bats between the studs. I'm trying to keep the heat out.

 

[SM Racing]

I would screw OSB to the ceiling. I know its tough to handle, but when you get done the ability to screw lights and other things directly into the ceiling is so nice. With anything else you have to look for studs. Staple up your vapor barrier and then put the OSB right up there. Once you are done, start pumping in the fiberglass blow in. Its a little pricey, but you can get awesome build up in no time and its a great insulator. Much easier to deal with than the cellulose junk.

Why are the exterior walls so far away from the interior walls? You could probably have great insulation capabilities on the walls. If you did foam all the way out on the exterior walls, and along the bottom edge of the space, you could blow in fiberglass there as well. Just fill it to the top.

The biggest issue would be condensation without adequate ventilation between the heated space and the metal roofing. I would think the shed roof would have problems with getting enough ventilation and still maintaining good insulation capabilities.

 

[jimp]

I know it's not the same, but I ran R 30 behind my walls then R 13 in the 2x4 wall. Along with original insulation + R 50 in the walls and ceiling. In the KC area a 80,000 btu furnace keeps me comfortable in a 60X72X14.

See photo, run R 30 (or more) along the back of you stud wall then fill the 2x4 with R 13, blow the ceiling with R 30 or more.

After working with Sheet rock and OSB on my shop and later helping my BIL do panel liners on his, I will never do anything but panel liners, faster, easier and cleaner install, plus for him it was cheaper.

 

[mikewatson]

to cover the roof or walls on the "cheap", look at using lauan plywood, around here it's just over $5 a 4x8 sheet. I just rebuilt the interior of my g/f's horse trailer with it in the living area. It looks pretty good too. You can shoot it up with an air brad gun or staples. Paint it before you put it up, it'll save a lot of time.

$24 a sheet here

 

[930dreamer]

My first choice would be spray on insulation, yes it's expensive but it will seal all of those little opening and you ARE in Alaska.

 

[Alaska4Ever]

Thanks guys for the replies. Spray foam is out. Way to expensive for me and living here it is even more expensive. quotes were over 20K. Remember i am in the middle of no where so just getting her to work is an issue and there is no place to stay the night.

So without the spray foam you guys seem to think blowing in insulation in the walls is a good idea. With that said then can i just line it with 1 inch foam board then vapor seal or put up batt insulation and then vapor seal and blow in the insulation. Also can someone point me in the direction of this sealing vapor the "Canada way"

CNG you are correct about the rough in plan. I am not looking to do this right now but just getting the plan and budget together. I have all the electrical in the barn to rough in and get it ready based on what i want to do just need to get a warm enough day to do it.

Also any help on the back shed ceiling for ideas would be nice. Planning to foam board then put up a ceiling and blow in insulation there. thoughts.


Please remember that my helper is 5 foot 9 inches weighing in at just over 100-110.

I will try to send some more pics of my place ... LOVE IT OUT HERE.

 

[Alaska4Ever]

I know it's not the same, but I ran R 30 behind my walls then R 13 in the 2x4 wall. Along with original insulation + R 50 in the walls and ceiling. In the KC area a 80,000 btu furnace keeps me comfortable in a 60X72X14.

See photo, run R 30 (or more) along the back of you stud wall then fill the 2x4 with R 13, blow the ceiling with R 30 or more.

After working with Sheet rock and OSB on my shop and later helping my BIL do panel liners on his, I will never do anything but panel liners, faster, easier and cleaner install, plus for him it was cheaper.

Jimp... so you are talking about the metal building roll insulation behind the studs. I thought about that but i am concerned about moisture when insulation is in that manner. I am hoping some will talk about that cause that is the reason i am putting up 1 inch foam to SIMulate spray foam that best i can. If i am going to blow it why not just put up batt insulation vapor seal and blow it rather than putting up more roll insulation. By the way... KC is a great place.. almost moved there last year. Nice shop also.


By the way all the spray foam quote was for only 2 inches... still have to insulate even more for up here and all the other finish work to fund plus the heating portion will be another thread i start some day.

i did look into buying a used rig and doing it myself but that was overwhelming could not even find what the material cost would be.

 

[DC73]

Also can someone point me in the direction of this sealing vapor the "Canada way"

Do some research on these two sites and you should find plenty of answers. The GBA site has a forum where you can post questions to the experts.

Building Science Corp.

Green Building Advisor

DC

 

[PeterT]

For what its worth, I got about $1500 in spray foam kits (I think it was 4 - 600 board foot kits), I put on a thin layer to stiffen up the inside wall structure (prior to putting up 2x6 walls between the 'pole's). I was a little short, but I got the the lower 6 foot around the entire bldg. Then I put up 2x6 walls, framed them on the floor, put up house wrap on outside, lifted 2x6 wall into place. Then I hung R30 batts.
The barn stays pretty warm with one natural gas heater running on a thermometer set to 45. I don't think batts get the credit they deserve and for the price at the home centers, I don't think it can be beat.

 

[jimp]

Jimp... so you are talking about the metal building roll insulation behind the studs. .

No, while I had R 19 installed when the building was put up ( the white face shown), I later added R 30 batt to bring most walls up to R 50 and on the framed shop areas I added additional R 13 (photo). I know it is over insulated, but at the time HD had a big sale so the R 30 was relatively cheap. I have a few areas that still do not have cover and the batt is still in place and tight, no settling.

It's just an option to consider as long as you have something to hold it in place, like your stud walls.

 

[Alaska4Ever]

PeterT I guess i never really thought about it but the spray foam kits might be an idea. The walls are 840 sq/ft... so i would need several kits. How thin is thin? Also anybody know about this as oppose to just putting up 1 inch foam. The girts are 2x6 so that will leave an an 1.5 air gap between foam and metal. Do not really want to put up foam but if i ever need or decide to blow in insulation then i am nervous about insulation against the metal. Also someone told me that dead air is around 1R... with 15 inches of gap between back of stud and the girts... that is R15.. sounds questionable to me. Also to answer a question as to why so far from the outer wall.. 1 already done when i got it...2 The owner wanted to cover the very large poles used in the barn i guess.

I would be up to buying a spray foam machine and then resell but that concept is so foreign to me. Not sure how to price it as i do not know where to get chemicals how much is needed and how much a said volume will cover. Sounds like another forum to me... up here spray foam is so expensive as is everything.
More pics of the place this time in the summer

 

[Alaska4Ever]

Threw in a couple pics of the house....and the property. Love it out here... challenging but very peaceful. Just to get the barn up and running and all will be good.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ Simply STUNNING pictures . . . . AWESOME !! . . . .

/ Alaska envy

 

[jimp]

Also someone told me that dead air is around 1R... with 15 inches of gap between back of stud and the girts... that is R15.. sounds questionable to me

It would not be dead air, the hot side/cold side would set up convection air flow, it's very questionable.

It looks like you have a great place.

 

[Alaska4Ever]

Stunning it is but cold it is as well.... out at a neighbor bonfire tonight and northern lights were out. Keeps you around for sure.

Going to start running with a plan to budget for 1" foam board with bat insulation, blow in the ceiling, and then see what the winter brings. I will leave availability to blow in the walls if needed. Also my take a look at spray foaming the walls with a thin coat as PeterT did... just thinking that 1 inch foam might work the same and give me some thermal break and protect my metal if i do decide that blowing the walls is needed. Always open to ideas.. since i am in the planning stages of this.

 

[drmarkr]

Don't forget your lines for air as well, although those could easily go outside the rock....

 

[sberry]

White steel liner with a layer of foam board under it, batts in the walls and blown chop in the ceiling.

 

[sberry]

You betcha, this is a fixer upper. This as a 100% heated building would be a super benefit, once the effort is spent anything inside those 4 walls is weather protected and makes coping with bad weather so much easier.
My shop never freezes. its not like an oven, 50 or so but its not like being outside either and don't feel any wind, the more snow blows around and piles on the warmer it is. With the type of ceiling in the pic there is no substitute for insulation and it becomes greater the warmer you try to get it.

 

[sberry]

Heat to 45 and zoom it up a little as needed.

 

[bgarrett]

One inch of insulation is not going to do much. I sprayed the underside of my metal roof, then checked with the Horrible Freight temperature gun and the foam was actually warmer than the bare metal. I guess the foam was holding the heat

 

[sberry]

An inch would be better than steel which is none. As the OP stated and I contribute to the fact that all these aint got to be heated like we have hi occupancy body shops. Anywhere above freezing and out of the wind is a plus but thawing is somewhat slow. It takes longer than overnight to thaw a froze car at 50, could speed it with infared which makes for great backup.

 

[sberry]

With low heat the walls are less of an issue. In big buildings the loss is super thru the roof. With tedius rebuilding its nice to be warmer than 50 but for general to do stuff and getting out of the weather its bearable, you get used to it and are already dressed somewhat warm. Ceiling fans and if a guy had a pinch of gas for a radiant over a bench and I have an office that's 10 degrees warmer, can turn up so you can recover from outside.
I would leave the back cold storage and might even be tempted at some point to add on a side office, I have mine in front corner after walk in but my building is 80 wide and it doesn't eat in to working floor space and was designed specifically for it. I have second story above it, if its an add on it doesn't need to be so hi but you cant have falling ice either etc.

 

[sberry]

One thing about the design here. The addition out the back is ok but it could have been all under one roof plane just as well. This is a super nice size. It really gives a little elbow room.

 

[PeterT]

The do it yourself kit prices have come down and you do not need any special equipment, just some gloves.

Here is an example,
http://www.energyefficientsolutions.com/Quick-Cure-Spray-Foam.asp?item=FOAM605

 

[Bib Overalls]

Check your local Craigslist Materials Section every day. You never know what will show up. The other day I scored 25 sheets of pink foam board 4' x 16' x 1.5" for 10 bucks each. A friend of mine scored some 4" thick slabs for the same kind of money several months ago. This kind of stuff goes fast so you need to be ready to jump when a deal comes up.

 

[Alaska4Ever]

Bib: I do exactly that but it is tough. Insulation is a premium up here and when things do come up they go extremely fast. It is even harding being 70 miles from town. I cannot tell you the number of times i have called and missed items...even when i do get in touch and say can i come up in a day or two based on work schedule usually it does not work because someone with cash is standing right there. I do looks though, can not hurt.

Sberry... Thanks for the reply. I do not like the back shed style design. Creates an unvented cathedral style roof but you get what you get. So based on what you are thinking i would not run into condensation issues with 1 inch foam board sealed with bat insulation in the walls. My main concern is doing all this work and expense only to do something that in the long run leads to demise of the barn structure. With that said doing it economically is needed as well.. trying to find the happy medium.

After reading some on the green building web it appears that the proper way to do this in my climate (TO CODE) would be flash and bat... up here that would mean R10-15 spray foam followed by batt or blown insulation. the only thing that was not dealt with is the amount of blown i am dealing with (15 INCHES) that is non typical so they did not deal with how this might affect amount of foam needed. ALSO they said no vapor barrier if done this way to allow to dry to the inside in my climate.

Here is the bad thing--- our climate for the most part is COLD.. but summers here can get to 90-100 (short burst TRUE) but still that is like the milder climates. Good thing that weather is measured in weeks not months.

 

[sberry]

Right, you got what you got. This is a pretty respectable building. Enough room to get a couple things in, leave some to move around, not have to pack up projects to get a crisis in.

 

[sberry]

Having a big building is about like another child but there are upsides. One thing, if you got to switch gears you can make a living out of it but you can really work with the weather and shift the work load.
I often park daily drivers in when the temps head down, park my plow truck in for most of the winter. De icing cars too. You likely don't have every road salted, not sure how much mud but we got both. If you are quite car and equipment dependent get a hot hi pressure washer like the car wash.

 

[sberry]

Cold is different to different people and local. We had half a dozen nights below 0 with a low of about -15 this year and a couple days at 0. It gets cold enough you cant wash a car, the water freezes back on. The warmer it is the easier but above 20 or so it works.
If you don't have road grime then its not so much a problem parking inside. I bite the bullet most of the time and clean before coming in and then things dry faster once the ice is cut off.
A steamer (really a hot hi pressure washer,,, steamer is slang) really goes well with this type of building. We can deal with frozen stuff, nothing beats being able to clean something fast. The other day I pulled a tractor mower out and the 6 yr old wasn't excited to see it with a cake of dust but a couple minutes later it look like new in comparison and my guy says,,, whole different machine.
You may not have the grime and dirty equipment I have, there would be a different rate of return but it really helps keep the rest of the place cleaner when you can knock it off outside.
These go hand in hand, about like a feeder and a plasma, the steamer and heated shop. I have switches outside, stick hose thru wall and make hot water on demand. Make it under pressure and can cut and melt ice. Don't have to drag out equipment, all plumbed in. Mine is between the doors and I have a big apron, your case may make some sense to do it off to the side etc depending on mess.
You will love this building, being able to work and store warm adds a whole different dimension. Getting in your car at 40 vs -40 is like entering another world.
I have floor drains which help.

 

[sberry]

Northern tool has a hot washer a little smaller and cheaper than this, I was actually curious and wouldn't mind trying one to see how it worked. Mine is 1500 psi but 5 gpm, big burner. It uses some fuel but it works well in cold weather. I use it every day.

 

[Alaska4Ever]

Sberry....Good idea i will look into one of those. I look forward to this some day. One problem i have is the short work season i.e. summer and i will be gone a good bit this summer. Even if i did have the money to spray foam the entire thing i really can not do it till summer. I really do not want to go through another winter cold that is why i am budgeting and planning now. trying to get it set up to have it finished on limited time by next year. We will see.

You are correct about making money out of it... i have already had people wanting to store RVs over the winter and such. Thought about it but it is my new toy... i would like to enjoy all of it before i start giving up parts to others..

 

[Alaska4Ever]

So here is the latest from the fine folks at Green Building Advisor.com They directed me to some blogs on cut and cobble, and R value of sheathing requirements. My build is a little different as i stated to them in that i am no applying this over OSB sheathing then putting siding on over the foam board. With that said there is a table for different zones that give you Foam board thicknesses required for different walls. In my zone (7/8) 2x4 wall require R10 or better and 2x6 requires R15 or better. You pick the foam board based on that R value rating. Basically the intent was to keep the interior side of the foam board warm enough to not have warm air coming from inside to out reach the dew point at the board.

The questions they really never answered was that i am not typical construction in that i do have 2x4 walls up but there is a 15 inch gap to the girts. I would be willing to fill that with blown cellulose but that was really never addressed only the foam thickness, which by the way is like 5 inch foam EPS or 3.5 inches of close cell spray foam .... $$$$$$ YIKES

Also does anyone understand WHY you need more R value foam for 2x6 vs 2x4. Seems like it would be the other way around.

Also one would think i could put up blown net insulation and just fill the cavity with blown cellulose That would be like R70. Actually not that expensive given the cost of cellulose and the R value you are getting. the only reason i have not rushed out to do it was i was concerned about damage to the girts (i.e. structure) and the metal.

Till i get this worked out i am proceeding with the rough in electrical and ceiling insulation. That is simple math for this simple guy.

Thanks guys.. it is nice to have several heads working on a project.

 

[DC73]

Also does anyone understand WHY you need more R value foam for 2x6 vs 2x4. Seems like it would be the other way around.

After reading the replies on GBA, I don't think they are saying that you need more R value foam for 2x6 vs 2x4, rather that R10 is the absolute minimum for a 2x4 wall and that a 2x6 wall with R15 would be better.

Pay attention if you get a reply from Dana Dorsett as he seems to really know this stuff.

DC

 

[Alaska4Ever]

Another Update.... Rick Van Handel replies and went a totally different route. He is saying foam with that large of an air gap would be a waste unless i blow in insulation to fill the void. He suggested foam on the girts with blown cellulose or fiberglass with house wrap on the back sides of the studs to allow it to breath both ways then the foam thickness would not really matter. This would allow me to use the stud wall as a mechanical chase area without putting any holes in the air barrier. He ask Martin and Dana to chime in. Also suggest as a question to Dana if EPS foam might be better.

So far this might be the most economical solution.

I do not understand the house wrap theory here and have read even on the GBA site that house wrap is not that good of an air barrier. Plus it seems to be 180 degrees from the original recommendations. This stuff is confusing at best.

I like it though... only thing that will be really difficult if this is it will be putting up the house wrap correctly in that tiny space i have and 14 high. I guess i could opt for putting it on the inside and running conduit but it would still get holes from the sheathing and hanging things in the sheathing ....hmmmmm guess i better go on a diet. GBA is really helpful but they are very technical for a non engineer like myself.

 

[sberry]

Yes, you will find others want to store in your new building, I don't even wait for them to finish asking,,, ha

 

[Alaska4Ever]

One thing that was not discussed was the ceiling. What are your thoughts on just putting foam with reflective back on the ceiling. Anybody done this and happy with what they have. It would be something that i could do by myself. Got any pics.... don't want the barn to start looking a huge piece mill project.