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Insulation question, please jump in

Gnfantic

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Hey guys. Like everything else today , foam insulation has gotten more expensive and is now out of my budget. My garage walls are completely insulated but not my roof joists which I was planning to foam and install metal roof paneling inside. This will be a heated garage. My question is this... If I install ceiling fans that will push the heat down and do not insulate the ceiling (Install metal panels) will I regret it?? Am I going to be losing massive amounts of heat?? I really do not want to spend $5500 for insulation.

Thanks for the input.
 
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The Cobbler

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a non insulated ceiling is a huge heat loss /gain
as said many times here in the past, pay for insulation once, pay for heat/ac every time it comes on
I would get a price on blown fiberglass. my experience is you can't buy bats for the same price as blown in, and you haven't factored in labour even.
condensation won't be an issue
 

walrus

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Any air movement thru the fiberglass will drop the performance of the fiberglass dramatically. So not sure what a metal ceiling is but if it has cracks or seams that aren't airtight fiberglass isn't a great choice
 

Denwood

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Vapour barrier ceiling joists, apply metal. Fill with blown in cellulose. Better R value and better air movement (convection) as temps drop. Cellulose is cheap, and you can rent a blower to do it yourself.
 
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Gnfantic

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Hey guys, thanks for all the replys. I understand about the importance of insulation, thats why my house attic is R60 but this is a shop that I wont be in everyday for 12 hours. so I am trying to see how long it would take to break even on all the money I spend in insulation for the roof. I have used Roxul many times in the past for walls but worried about the roof. Also I want to keep an air gap so no blow in stuff.
 

GeddyT

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Question: How is your roof ventilated? Or is it ventilated at all?

There is a pretty decent thread about a similar problem elsewhere on this forum that you might read through.

To me, your biggest issue is condensation. You're going to heat this garage, so you're going to have a temperature difference between the air above your roof deck and the air beneath. In the winter, this difference will be significant enough for condensation to form. I've seen what this can do, and believe me when I say it can be a nightmare.

I don't think fans redirecting air are sufficient to solve that problem. The majority of heat loss occurs UP. Then foundation perimeter (direct contact with frozen ground above the frost line). Then walls. Then underslab. There's a big gap between those first two items in terms of bang for buck. In your case, your walls are insulated and your ceiling wouldn't be. Fans or not, that hot air is going up, and condensation will form without either directly insulating the roof deck (2" of spray foam) or ventilating the underside of the roof deck.

If the roof is already ventilated (soffit/blocking vents and ridge vent or gable and roof vents of adequate size), then your problem could be solved pretty cheaply: Staple up baffles between rafters to protect your soffit/blocking vents, install a ceiling of choice (gypsum, metal, etc.), seal that ceiling (mud/tape or continuous vapor barrier above), then very cheaply and easily blow in cellulose to whatever R value gives you the warm fuzzies (cost/time per inch is marginal, so I'd go at least 14" installed in NY).

If your roof is not ventilated, that $5500 in foam starts to look a lot more attractive. You could perhaps save some money by spraying 2" of foam to create your thermal break (and add R-14 of insulation) and then bring this R-value up the rest of the way by stringing up insulation batting beneath. Or, if you're going to install a ceiling anyway, you could spray the foam and then blow in less loose fill beneath.

Summary: You're heating a building in an area that gets awfully cold outside. You need either a thermal break at the roof plane or ventilation between the roof plane and your insulation layer to prevent condensation. What is the most cost effective method of doing so depends on the design/state of construction of your garage--largely, is the "attic" already ventilated or isn't it. Is the roofing installed or isn't it (3" XPS panels between the roof deck and roofing material is far more cost effective than spray foam and would eliminate the need for venting in your climate zone).

Not that code compliance necessarily matters for your garage, but building code exists for a reason. So maybe a look at the IRC section for R-value of impermeable thermal break for unvented roof decks would be a good use of your time. Looks like Long Island is zone 4A, so R-15 (2" of closed cell spray foam or 3" of XPS pre-formed) is the ticket for preventing condensation below unvented roofs in your neck of the woods.
 
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Gnfantic

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Thanks for the excellent response. My roof is vented with roof vents and soffits. Installing those vent rafters will be cheap . I rather stay away from blown in, to damn messy. The rafters are 2x8, why not lay 2x6 roxul on top of vents? It would much cheaper then spray foam, at least $3000 cheaper. If I do it this way would I still need a vapor barrier?
 

ericm

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You want the vents bottom and top to stay open to the space above the insulation so air can flow through. For regular flat ceilings they make inexpensive plastic pieces that keep insulation out of the vent and preserve an air way. If you have a cathedral ceiling it'll be different but the same idea.
 

GeddyT

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I love mineral wool insulation. I use it in walls 100% of the time. Unfortunately, it's a LOT more expensive than blown-in, so that answers your question as to why blown-in. Blown-in is also much quicker/easier to install over a large, flat area.

If you have adequate soffit and roof vents, then I don't see why this has to be super complicated and expensive. It's a standard installation. Install your lower vent baffles [YouTube video], hang your ceiling of choice, go up in the attic and blow in your insulation to desired depth.

I know it's messy, but it doesn't take long, is easy, and is a one-time thing. I blew in 1100 square feet to R-49 in about three or four hours. Machine rental was free with the purchase of insulation. Four hours in a respirator for me and the same for my wife down loading the hopper saved us about a thousand dollars.

What I'm still unsure of with your particular installation is whether you plan to have a flat ceiling or vaulted ceiling in the garage. Having a vaulted ceiling definitely complicates things, and I would probably use fiberglass or mineral wool batts for that instead of blown-in. Either way, the top down order of your roof/ventilation/insulation system should go:

1.) Roof deck (top)
2.) Ventilated space
3.) Baffles to separate ventilated space from insulation
4.) Insulation
5.) Ceiling

Here's such a system for a cathedral style ceiling (note this only works with a continuous ridge vent, as air is unable to pass between rafter channels to box vents):
766aca0057d8e9151306266b7339d8d5.jpg


And here's how it would look for a flat ceiling:
blog-baffle.jpg


In the latter case, I still recommend blown-in, as the savings are significant. 1000 square feet to R-49 costs about $900 with blown-in where I'm at (in fact, this would be more like R-55 because it's cheaper to buy more bags to get volume discount), R-60 fiberglass would be a bit over $1400, R-46 mineral wool would be about $2400.

As for vapor barrier, I think it's a bit overrated when you have adequate ventilation in the attic space. Especially considering all the little holes you'll poke into the vapor barrier in the process of installing both it and the ceiling. If you install drywall on the ceiling and tape and paint it, this itself is a vapor barrier. Preventing condensation in the attic is achieved two ways: preventing warm, moist air from reaching the attic in the first place and providing for adequate ventilation to remove said warm, moist air when it inevitably makes it up there anyway.

I did not install a vapor barrier. I drywalled, taped and mudded seams, kept ceiling penetrations to the bare minimum, and spray-foamed any penetrations that were made. Attic ventilation is up to code and then some. Twenty degrees outside, 67 degrees inside, attic was bone dry. Heating bills were surprisingly low.

All that being said, don't take my word for it. I'm no building scientist or engineer. Ask your local building inspector to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to do.
 
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Gnfantic

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Here is a pic of ceiling I am working with. A ridge vent could not work due to size of massive beam. Also had to tie in the rafters so I have a small section in the top that is flat. I am going to get long pieces of metal ceiling panels, white.
 

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GeddyT

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Hmm. Almost a cathedral ceiling. This is one I'd have to defer to the experts on. The problem is that if you stick to just the depth of your rafters, you only have 7.5 inches for insulation and air cavity. So really that's about 5.5 inches for insulation. You can get R23 from mineral wool in that space and leave an air cavity above. The flat area at the peak created by the rafter ties might be your saving grace in tying all the rafter cavities together so they all have access to the upper vents.

Cardboard baffles all the way from the top of your wall to the rafter tie, stuff mineral wool in below that, install ceiling, you have R23. Or just plug the vents (they wouldn't be needed, fill those cavities nearly full with foam, you have R49 (and a really light wallet).

It becomes a math problem at that point. Add up number of heating days times cost of fuel, see how long it takes for the spray foam to pay itself off.

For sure I'm out of my league on something like this. Probably best to consult an expert. I originally wanted vaulted ceilings like that but found it was cheaper to just buy flat trusses, screw on a flat ceiling, fill with blown-in, so that's what I did.
 
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Gnfantic

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GeddyT, exactly my point. 3 months of winter a year and being in the garage on weekends only with maybe 10 hours max a day. I will never break even with a $5000+ insulation bill. A lot of people complain online about the Styrofoam baffles you buy at big box stores collapsing. I never seen cardboard baffles, going to search for them.
 

GeddyT

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I made my own baffles. I just bought sign board (expanded plastic? I don't know what you call it), scored it, bent tabs, and stapled.

Really, the great thing about mineral wool is that you stuff it in and it holds its shape. R23 mineral wool is made to fit a 5 1/2" cavity. You have 7 1/2". That's a full 2" for air to travel above it. I'd be tempted to save the time and money, make sure to not stuff the insulation past flush with the bottom of the rafter beams, and call it good. Mineral wool holds its shape well enough that an air channel above would be maintained.

I heat my shop 24x7 (to a minimal comfortable level), so the insulation would pay for itself in four or five years. In your case, yeah, that would be hard to justify.
 

ericm

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You could research ways other than closed cell foam to seal the roof deck and make an unvented insulated attic that won't get condensation. If its done right it's a valid way to go, and would avoid a lot of problem solving for a vented attic in this building that wasn't really designed for it.

Or you can make it vented as discussed above. You'd need both soffit vents and vents high up. Since you can't use a ridge vents you could use "eyebrow" vents in the small volume the rafter ties give you. There's also gable end vents but I'd be concerned that there's not enough area to be effective and that the flow in the space between the rafters and ties would not be good.

Code calls for effective vent area a minimum of 1/300 of the sq footage. I believe that's each, for top and bottom. And 1/150 is recommended.

If you plan to condition the space at all I recommend insulating and blocking air leaks. It'll make the building more comfortable and cost less to heat/cool.
 

Crazyhorse

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Here is a pic of ceiling I am working with. A ridge vent could not work due to size of massive beam. Also had to tie in the rafters so I have a small section in the top that is flat. I am going to get long pieces of metal ceiling panels, white.

I have a similar setup I am working on insulating, with a 10x20 GlueLam Beam. I am looking at a modified ridge vent detail with what my roofer referred to as a "Boston Ridge", where the ridge vent is widened out to clear the beam.
https://www.cor-a-vent.com/uploaded_files/files/Tech Drawings PDF/Cor-var4.pdf?1429117453342
 

Crazyhorse

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Crazy h. What are you doing for insulation??

Plan at this point is leaning towards continuous ridge vent, intake between each rafter at the eaves, 1 1/2" vent space, continuous baffle of 1/2" rigid foam, then fiberglass bats below to fill the cavity. I'm in Zone 3 though, so there is much less to deal with here to get proper R value for moisture control.
 

duneslider

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If you are only heating occasionally you will be better served to work on air sealing, especially the garage door/s. If the room doesn't have many air changes happening then just run the heater when you need it and it will stay warm. Even if you insulate but have large gaps and a lot of air changes you will have more trouble heating it. If you wanted to heat it all the time then sure insulation is a bigger deal.
 

wrenchguy

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You have a unusual roof for a garage and mentioned you had joist. You don't. Baffle the whole length of each rafter bay , then install batts. Pad down your rafters enough to get the R rated insulation you want to use. Do research on ridge vent too, your gonna need it.
 

davo727

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Whats the length and cross section on that beam? Interesting build.
 
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