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Insulation Question

DirtyWhiteBoy

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Aug 18, 2009
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141
Location
Byrdstown,TN
I am looking at closed cell foam(if I can afford it) for the 2nd floor of my gambrel roof building. I have 2 estimates scheduled this week.

My question is do I need ventilation with the closed cell foam applied to the roof deck? I built it with eave and ridge vents planning on using baffles and bats. There seems to be varying opinions on spraying the foam directly to the roof deck. I would love to have the extra r value in the wood shop area (2nd floor) if I can deal with the $$. the heat/cooling savings seems like it would eventually pay off.

What do you think about vent/no vent and is it worth the cost

Thanks in advance
 
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tcianci

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Walpole, Ma
The main reasons for using the eave and ridge vents are two-fold. First, allowing the air to be admitted at the eaves and exhausted at the ridge utilizes air convection to its full advantage and since the entry point of the air is down low in the attic and the exhaust is high, it will do a great job of keeping the air changed in the attic, thus lowering the attic temperature as much as possible in the summer months for a "passive" ventilation scheme.
Second, admitting air at the eaves keeps the back side of the roof sheathing cold in the winter. This is a typical design feature of "cold roof" construction. The theory is that with the roof deck being kept cold, the layer of water that commonly forms under ice on the roof is more likely to stay frozen and not wick its way into the building. Now of course the roof will stay cold as long as there is no source of heat in the structure. Since we are dealing with a heated structure, the trick is to keep the roof deck cold. The more insulation you have to keep the heat from the roof deck, the better.
It would be helpful to know what your insulated envelope will look like. In a gambrel for instance, you would commonly insulate the vertical "knee wall" and then either a flat ceiling or a cathedral ceiling. I am assuming that your eave vents are at the lower portion of the gambrel roof and not at the start of the gable roof. In that case, with an insulated knee wall the entire area behind the knee wall will stay cold and the only place you will need the baffles would be at the junction of the two roof slopes on up to make sure air from the eaves gets to the ridge. That would be in the case of a cathedral ceiling design, If you opt for a flat ceiling, then you only need to ensure the air has passage from the beginning of the gable roof to a point above the top of your ceiling insulation.
The flat ceiling option may be the least expensive in the long run because, while you may not get lots of insulation at the point where the two roof pitches come together, you can insulate the knee wall with any thickness of batt you want, even a 12" bat since it sticks out in the area behind the knee wall. The same holds true for the flat ceiling, you can load that too. This construction will maintain a cold roof design and insulate the structure well. Since you can do the fiberglass install yourself, you can have a well insulated structure for less money than a spray in foam job. If you have any more question, just post.
 

GSSFC

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Apr 13, 2008
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423
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Wolfeboro, NH
Gamble is difficult to vent properly to begin with. With closed cell foam properly applied, venting is not necessary anyway. Close the soffits and ridge vents off and have the foam applied directly to the decking.

Tim
 

tcianci

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Walpole, Ma
And it's even harder to spell properly...I have to respectfully disagree with nixing the venting, if for no other reason, the attic should be vented to lower the summertime temperatures in the attic space as much as possible. I know there are a lot of newer materials available as an alternative to plain old fiberglass, but from what I can see, the biggest advantage to any of them is the ultimate R value for any given installed thickness vs cost. R 30 is R 30 whether it is from fiberglass, foam, cellulose or rat fur. Please elaborate on how the foam insulation negates the need for attic ventilation. There are also some schools of thought that a vented attic helps the roofing shingle life too. I don't have any first hand experience with that one.
 
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DirtyWhiteBoy

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Byrdstown,TN
Thanks for the reply's guys. Sorry that I omitted useful info.

I have no issues with only insulating the flat ceiling, however I have 2 doorways framed into the "knee walls" for access into storage area on each side. i plan on the storage area to be insulated to keep finishes from freezing and control moisture for lumber storage as well. I do plan on using the batts in the 2 x 6 walls for the 1st floor

For reference the building is 30x 34 with 12' 1st floor ceiling height, the 2nd floor has 8' height and is 20 x 24 inside the knee walls. here is a shot during framing before all of the truss like braces were installed
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts

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tcianci

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Cool lookinng frame! To me the frame is always one of the more exciting parts of the project, it defines the building, and it happens so fast! Seems like you have a good handle on how you need to do your insulating because you are supplying access to the area behind the knee wall. Good luck on your project
 

walrus

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Nov 12, 2008
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11,673
Location
Maine
And it's even harder to spell properly...I have to respectfully disagree with nixing the venting, if for no other reason, the attic should be vented to lower the summertime temperatures in the attic space as much as possible. I know there are a lot of newer materials available as an alternative to plain old fiberglass, but from what I can see, the biggest advantage to any of them is the ultimate R value for any given installed thickness vs cost. R 30 is R 30 whether it is from fiberglass, foam, cellulose or rat fur. Please elaborate on how the foam insulation negates the need for attic ventilation. There are also some schools of thought that a vented attic helps the roofing shingle life too. I don't have any first hand experience with that one.

Air moves right thru fiberglass, that means moisture can condense out as it moves towards the outside in the fiberglass, vents move the moisture. It can't do that in closed cell foam, air doesn't go thru it. this is a good site www.buildingscience.com
 
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