Insulation Questions

[90TalonTSI]

Hey guys, new to the forum, but really glad I joined. You all have been very informative and have a bunch of great ideas.

A little about myself, I'm 23, work full time selling parts for a Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep/Ram dealership in Kansas. Love working on cars of any time, age, style. I've been renting places here and there, just kind of floating around, and finally found a place I'd like to call home for a while. I'm buying my first house and close on it March 4th. It's got a 20-25x30 720sq ft detached shop I'd like to insulate and heat. Not too worried about A/C as our summers generally aren't too terrible, nothing a few shop fans and open garage doors can't solve. I believe it's what you call a pole barn setup. I've attached a few pictures to show you guys what I'm working with. These were just quick snaps, hopefully I can get over there to snap a few more before closing so I can get to work as soon as possible on it. Any help or insight would be great. I'm a pretty handy person, but stuff like this gets a little overwhelming sometimes.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Congratulations on your purchase.

I don't see any question marks in your post. What are your goals and budget? That might be a good place to start.

Phil

 

[90TalonTSI]

I suppose I should've proof read my post a little better. Sorry for that.

At the end of the day, I don't have any real major budget for this. I'd say around $2-3,000. I don't plan to sheet rock it out immediately, but eventually would like to. I would eventually like to make an attic so I can use it for storage up top. I'd also like to put a wood stove or some sort of heater in it after insulation.

Mostly just looking for the most cost effective way to do it with the space that I have. I'm unsure if I need a vapor barrier or not. Some things I've read say I do, some say I don't. There are slight gaps where the top of the side walls meet the roof. They make the ridge shapes like the metal panels. I'm unsure if I should seal those up before insulation, or leave them open for an air gap. Mostly just any time of insight anyone can offer me would be great. I can work on a vehicle all day long, but household stuff confuses me.

 

[k-os]

You mention your summers aren't very hot, but don't mention what your location is. Where are you at? This will help people recommend vapor barriers/etc.

 

[MisterMike]

There are a lot of knowledgeable folks here. I can only tell you want I've found that works.

We have a place in SW Wisconsin and about five years ago built a 30x48x14 pole barn with a concrete floor on that property. The budget has been limited, so we've been doing things in stages. A while back we had enough money on hand to undertake insulating it, and we decided to go with closed cell spray foam. The difference was profound. Not only is spray foam extremely effective in yielding a high R-value for its thickness, it also serves as a vapor barrier and eliminates (almost completely) the infiltration of dust and dirt that otherwise blows through a building of this construction.

The stuff is more expensive than fiberglass batting, and you do want to ensure that you cover any of it that might be exposed to sparks or heat sources with some sort of fire resistant layer, but it's incredibly effective. If your budget dictates that you'd have to wait a bit longer to be able to afford it, I'd urge you to wait.

 

[rebelranger]

How much work do you want to do?

If it were my pole barn, and there are overhangs I would remove the wall metal sheets and install 2" rigid foam then reinstall the metal sidewalls. Then Open cell spray foam 2" from the inside. Then place 3.5in fiberglass insulation over the spray foam then drywall. We are talking R10 for the rigid foam, R7 for the spray foam with AIR SEALING, and R13 for the fiberglass with some small noise reducing properties for a total whole wall R value of R30. You can skip the rigid foam if you can't find a good deal because off the Lowes rack 2in rigid foam is about $25 for a 4x8 sheet.

For the roof/ceiling the trusses don't look like ones designed for storage so I would drywall it. Spray 2in open cell foam on top then 12 to 16in of loose cellouse. For an AIR SEALED r value 49.

This would make a huge difference for the HVAC requirement on the building, however the cold concrete slab can't be helped at this time.

 

[90TalonTSI]

I live in Kansas. The summers are mostly humid. The heat doesn't bother me a whole awful lot, so I'm not too concerned about A/C of any sort. The winters however, get too cold sometimes for my liking. I hate cold weather with a passion, so I will be installing a heater of some sort eventually.

I do like the idea of the spray in foam. Even if it is a tad more expensive, I'd rather wait the time for funds to appear and do it right and once.

I don't mind working, as long as it's worth it. The cold concrete slab I'm not too concerned about. I'm just looking to heat it enough to take the chill off, and insulate it enough to keep the heat inside.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I live in Kansas.

Put that in your profile.

I do like the idea of the spray in foam. Even if it is a tad more expensive, I'd rather wait the time for funds to appear and do it right and once.

Spray foam is expensive, but is does 2 jobs. Insulation and vapor barrier. 1-2" provides a good vapor barrier. You can add more later if you don't close up the walls.

Portable heaters work well for short periods. Kerosene stinks and LP give off water vapor and both give off carbon monoxide. Ventilation is required.

Do you have natural gas ? If not, a mini-split heat pump might be a good solution.

 

[90TalonTSI]

Yes sir, natural gas is available. I'll go through my profile now and change some things around.

 

[rebelranger]

Here is the deal. No matter the low cost of gas/propane/coal/etc it is a dying item.
Get a mini-split, or if you aren't ready to commit do a dual gas/electric heat pump, insulate it right, and add solar vice using gas. My recommendation will cost more today and may take longer to recoup the investment costs but if you live there 10 years and when gas is $5 a gallon again and natural gas is $3.5 a gallon you will thank that you did proper insulation and went electric.

As a comparsion I have a 4ton 20 SEER 12.5 EER whole house heat pump in southern Missouri for a 5400sqft home, 4 zones, and my highest electric bill was last month for $200. My highest summer bill was $71. Now that isn't bad but I have a mandatory $59 monthly fee for 60months to recoup the underground install for new construction and my HVAC bills are incredible. I used spray foam 5.5inch open cell and insulated vinyl siding. My shop will be just as i recommended.

 

[90TalonTSI]

Thanks for the insight. That's the best part about all of this, is so much useful information and real world experiences. Luckily, the shop I've got is built, but it's almost like a blank canvas that I can do whatever I want and go whichever route I choose to do so. I think I'll end up going the spray foam route. It seems like the best option in the long run. Now then, to the next question. Since my walls are metal. Would it be best to use closed cell foam for the exterior portion of the wall, and then open cell on the inside? I do plan to stay in this house for quite a while, so the extra money spent initially, will be well worth the payoff in years to come.

Thank you all for the great suggestions. I really, really appreciate it.

 

[CNGsaves]

Congrats on the great 25'x30' shop !!

Also, Welcome to GJ and yes, there are countless guru's here to help.

Being just 23, you are WAY ahead of any curve . . . WOW !!!

I'd just watch CL like a hawk and see if you can get some exterior foam/styrofoam sheeting on the cheap and put under the tin as suggested above. Put on Tyvek housewrap after that and re-install exterior tin.

Then you can slowly work on rough electrical and lighting improvements on the interior. Don't rush into putting up insulation or sheetrock inside, until you decide HOW you're going to use building and wire/light it appropriately.

Start saving your money for buried natural gas line in the yellow plastic polyethylene and the risers on each end to connect near your gas meter.

Once you've got all rough electrical/lighting done, and NG service out to building, then you move forward to final insulation and wall covering. Might even be able to pickup cheap OSB from CL if you're willing to work at it. All the while, also be on lookout for bargain 45K or 50K Btu hanging NG gas vented heater.

In summary . . . Congrats . . and . . . Save . . . and . . . Plan, Plan, Plan !!

 

[NUTTSGT]

I'd consider trying to squeeze some rigid 1.5 panels between the girts. I'm not sure if they will fit or not or if you can loosen the panels on the outside to give you some extra clearance. I'd try to get this done first, then spray foam. It'll get you some insulation in the wall, time to save up for some spray foam. It'll also keep you from directly spraying onto the metal siding. You might find that is not a good choice for you if you have to replace a panel in the future. . .Kansas, tornado alley..hail storms = dented metal ??

The ceiling, you have trusses on an 8' center ? That will take a little bit of extra work to put a ceiling up as panels (drywall,osb or metal) can't span that far without some help.

 

[90TalonTSI]

Thank you for the kind words CNG. I've definitely busted my **** trying to get where I am, and will only continue to do so.

I have no problems with pulling the metal panels off and putting foam board insulation and TYVEK or any alternative around it then reinstalling them. Especially if you guys feel like it'll be that much more beneficial. I definitely plan on staying in this place for quite some time, and if/when the time to move does come later in the future, I feel like having a nice insulated shop might increase the value just a tad. I might not ever see my money back for it, but maybe it'll make for a quicker sale. I'll be on the hunt for items on craigslist etc. I'm excited to start this project and get it underway. I'll definitely have to make an "existing shop improvement" thread and show you guys progress. I can't thank you all enough for all the help/insight you've given me.

 

[wick30]

I'm in the last stages of building my 32x36 pole barn with 13' ceiling. I did sheetrock the ceiling and blew in a R49 value insulation. I used Tyvek on the sides. The walls are insulated with green board from Lowe's. Heat is buy a old Monitor 41 at 30 outside turn on the heat and it's 60 in 30 min. I am covering the walls with old barn wood and metal roofing and sheetrock 1/2 way done now. Bare walls are cold,place hand on the green board and there alot warmer. $11 a sheet. I hope this helps.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'd just watch CL like a hawk and see if you can get some exterior foam/styrofoam sheeting on the cheap and put under the tin as suggested above. Put on Tyvek housewrap after that and re-install exterior tin.

I just talked to my daughter's father-in-law. He is a certified home energy auditor. He is also currently building a new home.

He told me you ca find places that have WAREHOUSES FULL of used polystrene or even polyisocyanuarte foam board for <1/2 the new price ! Some are full sheets (removed from commercial re-roof jobs) some are cut-offs from other items.

 

[bzinsky]

the return on investment from insulation depends on how often you're going to be heating it.

There are countless ways to insulate, and insulation's purpose is mostly to save money or energy costs. How much energy you're going to save should determine how far you take it.

 

[90TalonTSI]

I spend an awful lot of time in the garage/shop. Always have. I have multiple project vehicles as well as a bunch of wood working projects. If I'm not at work, I'm spending time out in the garage. I use my house to shower and sleep. I'd like to get the most out of it for certain.

 

[bear5759]

I just talked to my daughter's father-in-law. He is a certified home energy auditor. He is also currently building a new home.

He told me you ca find places that have WAREHOUSES FULL of used polystrene or even polyisocyanuarte foam board for <1/2 the new price ! Some are full sheets (removed from commercial re-roof jobs) some are cut-offs from other items.

Did he offer insight on how one finds these places?

 

[Voi]

Did he offer insight on how one finds these places?

There are websites that allow one to search for used or reclaimed foam.

I'll see if I can find them and post back.

 

[Voi]

http://www.insulationdepot.com/contact-us.cfm

http://www.greeninsulationgroup.com/contact-us/

 

[Radical540]

How much work do you want to do?

If it were my pole barn, and there are overhangs I would remove the wall metal sheets and install 2" rigid foam then reinstall the metal sidewalls. Then Open cell spray foam 2" from the inside. Then place 3.5in fiberglass insulation over the spray foam then drywall. We are talking R10 for the rigid foam, R7 for the spray foam with AIR SEALING, and R13 for the fiberglass with some small noise reducing properties for a total whole wall R value of R30. You can skip the rigid foam if you can't find a good deal because off the Lowes rack 2in rigid foam is about $25 for a 4x8 sheet.

For the roof/ceiling the trusses don't look like ones designed for storage so I would drywall it. Spray 2in open cell foam on top then 12 to 16in of loose cellouse. For an AIR SEALED r value 49.

This would make a huge difference for the HVAC requirement on the building, however the cold concrete slab can't be helped at this time.

Follow all this, and you'll have the equivalent of a DEF-CON 3 bunker. A little over-kill Ranger.
I had open-cell spray foam done on the underside of my garage roof. Each inch of this stuff is is about R7-R9, and the thinnest area is 10". Do the math.
Keeps it warm in the winter - cool in the summer, but keep in mind the air is basically stagnant. You'll need to learn to become creative with fans; for air flow.

 

[rebelranger]

Radical I promise you open cell is never R7-9. Max is R4. They advertise it as the equivalent of R7-9 because of it's air sealing properties. Further the best you can do without a family discount is $.3 per inch per square foot for open cell. 10" is $3 per square foot at R30. You can get CLOSED cell foam for that price and higher R value and better moisture and rigidity qualities.

If you have OPEN cell foam with R7 or higher please give me the link!

Further you are forgetting thermal bridging from 2x4 or 2x6s. 1in of wood is R1. Thus without rigid foam the highest your wall can be is R4 or R6 where the studs are located.