Insulation

[nate379]

I spent some time up in my attic last weekend and realized that the insulation is less than I thought. About 16" in most areas by some it's more around 10-12.
I am going to have more blown in. I am trying to figure how much?

I was thinking to get everything to about 24" which would be R-60. Am I overlooking it? The insulation is about 30$ a bag and I calculate 20 bags.

 

[Falcon67]

I would look at the AttiKat stuff from Owen's Corning. Not that expensive, most places give you the blower free with enough bags and it's DIY. R19 over 1000 sq/ft is 10 bags.

http://www.mccoys.com/atticat?icid=1046399-1051979-0

http://shop.mccoys.com/building-materials/insulation/blow-in-insulation/p.63909
click on "specifications"

 

[nate379]

Looks to be about the same stuff I have in my attic. Johns Manvillle Attic Saver.

Gonna to price out what it costs for a pro to do. Pretty much need 2 people at least to do it and I don't have anyone able to help me out right now.

Aprox 1500 sq ft 12" deep is roughly 20 bags.

 

[tdkkart]

At least around here having it professionally done is the way to go. I don't know how they do it, but they can send 2-3 guys out in a big *** truck, blow in all the insulation, do all the clean up and be done minutes, for less than what you'd have to pay for the insulation.

 

[nate379]

Interesting enough I called EVERY insulation guy in the yellow pages. About 13-14 different places. Of those I got ahold of 1 person, all others I left messages.

The one guy I talked to flaked out on coming for an estimate. Then of the messages I left only 2 called me back. One is coming to do an estimate on Monday and the other on Tuesday.

If I DIY I'm looking at about $600 all said and done. One of the places that set up an appt said roughly looking at $500, but would have a solid number after they take a look up in the attic.

As I get older I am realizing that some times it's just easier to write a check and have a pro do it. In out and done before I'd have time to figure out WTF I'm doing.

 

[jimp]

Believe it or not you can over insulate, see attached. At R 25 it is just about flat.

I normally have about R40 to account for settling and air infiltration. But beyond that, use the money to stop air inflitration.

 

[nate379]

One of the reasons I was up in the attic was to increase air infiltration. House is sealed too tight and when the bath fans or dryer are running it causes neg air pressure in the house. Open a door and it will about fly into your face. Or if the woodstove is going it will backdraft the chimney.

One of the interior walls has a vent toward the bottom of the wall. At the header, there was 2" PVC pipe that ran through the insulation into the attic area. "fresh air intake". I added 2 more of these.

Min code for this area is R38, but most builders spec out at least an R45-R50. Per all the webpages, a R50-60 is ideal. That would be 20-24" of blow in. I know I won't be complaining about the $500 I spent when it's -20* outside.

 

[tdkkart]

One of the interior walls has a vent toward the bottom of the wall. At the header, there was 2" PVC pipe that ran through the insulation into the attic area. "fresh air intake". I added 2 more of these.

Last house we were in had a 4" pvc run from the attic down through a closet to the basement right beside the furnace.

 

[nate379]

Well quotes I got are might more than I expected (Go figure).

One is $1800 and the other is $1700.

Both places did the quotes to read "add R-**". When I said I didn't want to add r-** because the existing insulation is not level. Some places there is about 16" (r38) while other places there is about 8" R18).
I want 20" across the whole attic, which is R50. Well that didn't make any sense to them.

I did the math and I really don't understand the cost. I figure on 15 bags of blow in at the very most. Most the likely closer to 12. At $26 a bag that is only ~$400. So $1400 in labor. If the job takes 6 hours (doubt it) that is $120/hr per person for 2 guys.

 

[HVAC Phil]

Well quotes I got are might more than I expected (Go figure).

One is $1800 and the other is $1700.

Both places did the quotes to read "add R-**". When I said I didn't want to add r-** because the existing insulation is not level. Some places there is about 16" (r38) while other places there is about 8" R18).
I want 20" across the whole attic, which is R50. Well that didn't make any sense to them.

I did the math and I really don't understand the cost. I figure on 15 bags of blow in at the very most. Most the likely closer to 12. At $26 a bag that is only ~$400. So $1400 in labor. If the job takes 6 hours (doubt it) that is $120/hr per person for 2 guys.

And on top of that, company has to pay insurances, taxes, etc. They have the cost of the equiptment. So what you are saying is they should do it for free?

 

[Steves32]

My son is a salesperson for a large local insulation company. I use him all the time to suppliment my HVAC bids. He gets 75 cents to a buck a square foot on average to blow in to R38 & $1.50 to $2.00 to vacuum out what's there & then blow in new. We usually go with option 2 because most of the time it's packed too tight or loaded w/ rat ****. They blow the stuff in cheaper than I can buy materials for. Prices may vary depending on where you live. They aren't going to care what thickness you have now (according to my son). Per square foot to acieve R38 or higher. He says there's not much savings over R38. Get it too thick & the weight will pack it down.

 

[nate379]

What the hell guys, did someone **** in the Cheerios this morning?

All I said is that I didn't expect it to be so much.

Materials... $25/bag for the insulation, estimate 12 bags but let's just say 15 to be safe. That's $375.
That means I'm paying ~$1400 in labor.

So please explain. "I can't buy it myself for much less."


Yes I realize a place has overhead, and no of course they don't work for free... they sure as fawk aren't working for "free" when they make $1400 on a 1/2 day job, that I can tell you!

$1 sq ft for R38 sounds about right. In my case blowing in R12 on top of existing so about 1/3 the cost. With those figures material and labor should be in the low $1000 range.

Bare min code here is R38, but for the better energy rating (what all new houses are supposed to have) it's R44. That is what the house was sold with having, and honestly probably was what was there when it was put in 2.5 years ago before it settled and was moved around to get to places up there.

 

[nate379]

With equal pressure in and out there will be a degree of "chimney" to attic, yes.

Once neg pressure in house happens, it pulls air from those pipes. I don't need a meter to tell me that, just put a cig lighter near vent and it blows it out.

The pipe doesn't go to a basement. I don't have a basement. It runs from attic to top of wall plate, that's it. Wall cavity is hollow and vent is at bottom near baseboard molding.

There's enough neg pressure at times to backdraft my woodstove with a hot fire going. That has a 6" pipe and looking at a 600-700* temp difference between in the stove and outside.... what is easy to pull air from, that or 3 2" PVC pipes that have a temp difference of 80*?

That isn't a "fresh air intake", it is a chimney.

You will NEVER get "fresh air" out of your 2" pvc pipe that runs from the basement to the attic. NEVER.

What you WILL get is a draft that ***** the air out of the basement and then exhausts it into the attic, where it will be vented to the outdoors.

 

[rsa]

Bare min code here is R38, but for the better energy rating (what all new houses are supposed to have) it's R44.

In your area, the state requirement is R49 (or R38 with a properly sized, energy-heel truss). Status of State Energy Codes (Alaska). Alaska Amendments to the 2009 IECC.

You also have an issue with the unevenness of your insulation (heat flow through lumpy insulation is greater than through flat insulation). Reference.

 

[walrus]

My shop is 30 by 34, they blew in 13 inches over the whole area, cost 900 bucks. It was closer to 14 15 inches

 

[nate379]

Didn't realize they came out with a 2011 version. R38 was min code a couple years ago.

Don't have heel trusses but do have 2x6 bottom chord on all the trusses.

My insulation isn't lumpy or uneven like that, it's just not blown in level. Some from shoveling out truss cavities to run wiring and some from just being blown in not level.

In your area, the state requirement is R49 (or R38 with a properly sized, energy-heel truss). Status of State Energy Codes (Alaska). Alaska Amendments to the 2009 IECC.

You also have an issue with the unevenness of your insulation (heat flow through lumpy insulation is greater than through flat insulation). Reference.

 

[nate379]

Yeah no ****, it's exactly what you just wrote. Also from the dryer.

The only way your house will be under a negative pressure is if air is leaving it, whether it is through forced exhaust (bathroom/kitchen fans).

 

[Beaumont67]

My good neighbor rented the chopper/blower machine from HD and had 3.5 bags left over after he did his attic.
- he wanted to recover his rental cost, and asked for $100 to spray my entire attic, including material with his GF's son helping load the machine outside (~1 or 1.5 hours)

I would be livid paying a company $1000 profit, for 3-4 hours work - for a couple guys.

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[dlenkewich]

Well quotes I got are might more than I expected (Go figure).

One is $1800 and the other is $1700.

Both places did the quotes to read "add R-**". When I said I didn't want to add r-** because the existing insulation is not level. Some places there is about 16" (r38) while other places there is about 8" R18).
I want 20" across the whole attic, which is R50. Well that didn't make any sense to them.

I did the math and I really don't understand the cost. I figure on 15 bags of blow in at the very most. Most the likely closer to 12. At $26 a bag that is only ~$400. So $1400 in labor. If the job takes 6 hours (doubt it) that is $120/hr per person for 2 guys.

I do insulation proffessionally.

It shouldn't take more then 1 - 1.5 hours. If it takes 6, they are just renting/running a cheap machine. A pro machine blows R40 @ 1000/SF per hour.

I have no financial gain in your project, but my quote on your job(Which, like some contractors told you, is dependent on seeing the attic first) around $990 (According to R20 @ 1500SF) from there, we would show up and keep track and bill according to how many bags we actually used to get your attic insulation at and even depth across the whole attic.

A proffessional outfit should be able to do it cheaper then you can. Because of big box mark-up, I can purchase the same material you can for up to $12 cheaper a bag because of my contractors discount(through my supplier). Here, I buy my material cheaper then Home Depot does, according to their "Pro-Desk" (Contractors Desk).

 

[dlenkewich]

My good neighbor rented the chopper/blower machine from HD and had 3.5 bags left over after he did his attic.
- he wanted to recover his rental cost, and asked for $100 to spray my entire attic, including material with his GF's son helping load the machine outside (~1 or 1.5 hours)

I would be livid paying a company $1000 profit, for 3-4 hours work - for a couple guys.

Sounds like a great deal, but you have no details here.

How much did you neighbor spray in? If it only took about an hour on and HD rental, you didn't get much.

Going by the going rate for AtticKat in my city ($38.99/Bag - Home Depot), you didn't get much.

 

[nate379]

Hired a dude for $250, me and him going to knock it out tomorrow. Got the blower from Lowes and insulation, total cost to include help... $640.

 

[Teken]

Hired a dude for $250, me and him going to knock it out tomorrow. Got the blower from Lowes and insulation, total cost to include help... $640.

What R value do you plan on being at once all is said and done?

 

[long handles]

Well quotes I got are might more than I expected (Go figure).

One is $1800 and the other is $1700.

Both places did the quotes to read "add R-**". When I said I didn't want to add r-** because the existing insulation is not level. Some places there is about 16" (r38) while other places there is about 8" R18).
I want 20" across the whole attic, which is R50. Well that didn't make any sense to them.

I did the math and I really don't understand the cost. I figure on 15 bags of blow in at the very most. Most the likely closer to 12. At $26 a bag that is only ~$400. So $1400 in labor. If the job takes 6 hours (doubt it) that is $120/hr per person for 2 guys.

Hmmmmm, everybody and their brother is doing an energy audit through AHFC and going that route for improvements.

So what's not to understand? Demand helps drive cost.

 

[nate379]

I guess.

I'm not poor, native, or even looking for a handout, guess that means I have to bend over. House is already 5*, just I'm making it 5*... and a 1/2 with a few things here and there.

Attic Cat is the machine I got. Insulation was $26/bag, machine cost $275 deposit. Going through the commercial side of Lowe's... wow. They even gave me free coffee and loaded my trailer while I watched!

 

[Dragster Racer]

Man what a tough crowd! Everyone told me when I was ready to insulate my shop that it would be about the same price or cheaper to have it done professionally. The reasons given were that they can buy the insulation cheaper and can do the job very quickly. Fine. So when I come back with quotes of $1,000 more than doing it myself for the same materials, the response I get is "Well they got to make a living. Are you blaming them for that? Look at their costs!" Seriously? Same people with both arguments. I don't think my situation is unusual..it doesn't take me all that long to earn $1000, but to save that same money can take months! I can earn that back in about half a day including picking up the machine. That's a no brainer.

Are you sure that the negative pressure in your house is due to it being too tight? Does the negative pressure go away when you turn off fans and vented appliances? Do you have moisture problems in the winter in the house even with no humidifier? I have negative pressure in my home, but I'm pretty sure it is actually due to not being sealed enough. I am the only house on top of a hill, and with the air going around the house, the down wind wall of the house is going to create some negative pressure due to venturi, and the upwind side due to pressure is going to make it seem like negative pressure in the house when you open a door on that side. If the house was sealed really well, opening the door would just cause a bit of pressure rise in the house, but the door wouldn't fly in since the air has no place to go. In my case it isn't a matter of pressures, but rather air exchange causing the door to want to self open.
I just hate to see anyone super insulate, and then put a hole in their envelope to take care of other problems. Air infiltration ***** way more energy out of your house than heat migration. Just some thoughts.

 

[nate379]

Yes

Yes

No, not if wood stove is going

Are you sure that the negative pressure in your house is due to it being too tight?

Does the negative pressure go away when you turn off fans and vented appliances?

Do you have moisture problems in the winter in the house even with no humidifier?

 

[Falcon67]

My spreadsheet budget figure for a 24x38 8' wall shop with R11 walls and R19 blown ceiling was $700 for materials. The AttiCat blower is free from McCoys with a $500 deposit and the rest is bat. That is figured at retail price, not any special deals. A 42 x 24' budgeted at $848.

 

[long handles]

I guess.

I'm not poor, native, or even looking for a handout, guess that means I have to bend over. House is already 5*, just I'm making it 5*... and a 1/2 with a few things here and there.

I didn't say the weatherization program. The energy rebate program.

5*with the insulation you've got in the attic?

If you've got insulation highs and lows beyond normal settling and you don't have baffles, or have short baffles and an attic that is well vented, you got the same problem I've got. It's the wind in the valley. Trying adding length to the baffles to get the wind to flow higher up in the attic above the insulation or you're going to keep having to dealing with this.

 

[nate379]

Was signed off saying R44 in attic. I think someone slipped the inspector a $100 or something.

Baffles are about 3.5ft long. I think wind blew between baffle or something. Several had been ripped out of the truss, had to re-staple.


Anyhow got it all done, took us about 3 hrs, put 18 bags, 24" thick, so about R60. Total cost $700.