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Interesting auction I saw in MN

hailwood1965

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That little lathe and some of the other items are very cool. Is there a modern/China equivalent of that small lathe or mill?

Sadly the terms of the auction house make it seem like a deeply unfriendly place to go and bid. Big fees and they will not help you load even a small box of Kleenex tissue.


Here
 
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zendriver

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Sadly the terms of the auction house make it seem like a deeply unfriendly place to go and bid. Big fees and they will not help you load even a small box of Kleenex tissue.


Here
Completely normal today for an on-line auction, which most estates are sold at least around here.

Auctions used to be cool and fun, get some bargains. Now they **** "wanna play, gotta pay!"

They can keep their stuff.
 
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reader2580

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It is unfortunate, but 15% is not that unusual for a buyer's premium these days. The fact they won't help load is also not unusual for auctions either. It is pretty common when heavy items are involved to provide the names of riggers who can move and load the items for you for a fee.

I recently bought a bunch of stuff at a bankruptcy auction. The auction house normally charges a 15% buyer's premium, but for some reason they don't charge a premium for bankruptcies. They stated the staff on-site may be able to help load, but essentially don't count on it. It turns out the staff would not only help load, but they had also rented several forklifts to load stuff for buyers. The on-site staff for loadout was a guy who had worked for the bankrupt company and a few guys the head guy knew. The auction company did not have any of their own staff at the site. (Auction was in Dallas and the auction company is in Arizona.)

The stuff is apparently in the garage of a house in a residential neighborhood. It makes sense that they won't have a forklift on site. Will a standard forklift even fit into a normal garage?
 

Tynee

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Yeah, I get romantic about the notion of auctions, but especially online, it just wouldn't make sense. For this auction in MN, let's say I bid $10 on a tap and die set. I'd have the 15% buyer's premium, the 9.03% Sales tax, the 4% processing fee for paying via credit card, and the $20 fee for shipping it. Then I've got to pay shipping. I'd be in it for $45 to get my $10 tap & die set.
 

paulsomlo

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It is unfortunate, but 15% is not that unusual for a buyer's premium these days. The fact they won't help load is also not unusual for auctions either. It is pretty common when heavy items are involved to provide the names of riggers who can move and load the items for you for a fee.

I recently bought a bunch of stuff at a bankruptcy auction. The auction house normally charges a 15% buyer's premium, but for some reason they don't charge a premium for bankruptcies. They stated the staff on-site may be able to help load, but essentially don't count on it. It turns out the staff would not only help load, but they had also rented several forklifts to load stuff for buyers. The on-site staff for loadout was a guy who had worked for the bankrupt company and a few guys the head guy knew. The auction company did not have any of their own staff at the site. (Auction was in Dallas and the auction company is in Arizona.)

The stuff is apparently in the garage of a house in a residential neighborhood. It makes sense that they won't have a forklift on site. Will a standard forklift even fit into a normal garage?
@reader2580 How close are you to this? https://maps.app.goo.gl/c1tGETZb25p6DTYt8
 

zendriver

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Yeah, I get romantic about the notion of auctions, but especially online, it just wouldn't make sense. For this auction in MN, let's say I bid $10 on a tap and die set. I'd have the 15% buyer's premium, the 9.03% Sales tax, the 4% processing fee for paying via credit card, and the $20 fee for shipping it. Then I've got to pay shipping. I'd be in it for $45 to get my $10 tap & die set.
Even worse, to make sure your not buying broken/missing junk, you have to go there inspect, go home and start placing bids, if winner go back and pick the item up.

On-line auction usually make zero claims to the condition of the item, other than "as-is"
 

Leaflessshadetree

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Looks like the tools/equipment are in good shape. Could be some good deals. If you live within a reasonable distance and figure in the buyer's premium and tax when you decide what to bid.
 

cvairwerks

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This is at least the 2nd auction out of this estate. There are going to be a number more. IF you want an idea about what all Russel had, check out Topper Machine's channel and the auction walk thru videos. Auction house estimate was that it would take them more than a year and a large number of auctions to clear the shop part of the estate.
 

Tynee

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Why does it matter how much are the buyer premium and sales tax? You bid your maximum price, including those extra costs, and all is fine.
It matters because almost nothing is going to go for a reasonable price once I factor all that in. It's just not worth my time and effort to bid, and that ***** because I'd love to think I could find some bargains on good tools and equipment. Sadly, it's just not reality.
 

zendriver

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Why does it matter how much are the buyer premium and sales tax? You bid your maximum price, including those extra costs, and all is fine.
It matters because it could, in addition to buyers paying up to 25% more for an item, mean less money for the seller - who ironically is paying a listing and selling fee as well, if buyers get turned off by the auction terms. I am.

I used to attend hundreds of live estate auctions, where neither buyer fees or sales taxes (in most cases) were ever charged.

Now, online auctions mean way less work (= more profits) for the auction company and yet they tack on a 15% buyer fee.

Not my money, so have at it.
 

Bert_

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The whole concept of a buyers premium is ****. They still take a % of sale price on the sellers end too.

But the solution is simple. You have a maximum price you are willing to pay so just subtract the premium to get your bid.

It's easy to sit and scroll through auction listings in the evenings unfortunately everybody else can do the same thing!
 

MOS3522

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It matters because almost nothing is going to go for a reasonable price once I factor all that in. It's just not worth my time and effort to bid, and that ***** because I'd love to think I could find some bargains on good tools and equipment. Sadly, it's just not reality.


It's fallacious to blame the premium and tax for that. The simpler truth is the stuff is just too expensive, full stop. Doesn't matter how it's calculated.
 

zendriver

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Unfortunately everyday auctions are becoming like "banana duct-taped to drywall" art auction.

People seemingly have money "burning a hole in their pocket" not caring what they spend on auction items.

Good for them.

We resold estate auction items on eBay for several years doing "ok". Everybody else caught on and the selling prices went too high. Pandemic shut things down, then they came back with ape-**** prices. Then the labor shortage made on-line auctions way more appealing, auctioneers retired (or died).

One of my and (wifes) favorite things, digging through dead (or retired) peoples belongings, looking for treasures. Fun while it lasted. We still talk about great auctions we attended years ago.

SOLD!
 
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loganb

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Prior thread on this particular set of auctions here:

 

Under_Pressure

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Yeah, online auctions really ****. There was an estate of a guy that had a machine shop in his garage around here earlier this fall, had some stuff that I was interested in, but people would just go nuts. He had some Harbor Freight equipment- if there was something that you could go buy brand new today for $500, guys would bid up to $450 (less buyer's premium, etc.) and apparently think they got a deal. I did end up buying a heavy welding table just because I have been after one and the marketplace ones either ended up going too quick or were too far away to be worth it, but I definitely don't think I got a deal. I would consider it "retail" at best (to the extent there is a retail price on a homemade welding table), especially because I had to bring my big truck and trailer to pick it up as I needed to bring the skid steer to load it. The only things that went relatively cheap were the couple big old cast iron machines he had, but again, pretty sure that was because you had to move/load yourself and they were very clear that you had to get everything out between like 8 and 4 the next day, no exceptions, no help whatsoever. I theoretically had the equipment to get it moved and loaded, but with big awkward stuff like that, I wasn't interested in working under that kind of time constraint.
 

fatfillup

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Auction hound here. Online auctions through covid were tough, prices increased by about 30%. Has calmed down since. Previewing is always a good thing but not always doable because of distance. Looking to buy a desirable tool or set of tools at an online auction will not yield a bargain but paying close attention to box lots and partial sets can be quite good. Last week I did an online auction and was bidding on 375 lots. Won 87 of them for $2600. Will net close to $6000 but won't happen overnight for sure. From the pics online, the tool boxes and locker looked quite clean and that is an indication the tools will be nice too. That was the case this time. Many tools I was able to put a price tag on without cleaning which is a plus. Actually sold a 3/4 Snap on torque wrench before I ever saw it and more then doubled my money. Sold a 2 1/2 inch socket on the way home, customer called and asked if I had one and was pretty sure I have bought one. $6 turned into $30 with only a mile going out of my way. To be fair, I have a used tool store and know a lot of mechanics and companies and they know my inventory is deep, especially on big tools. Get calls most everyday for something.
Live auctions are more fun and can be great but also can be overpriced too. IF there is a lot of Snap on, you can bet prices will be high on many things. Also, certain auctioneers will have followings that make buying for resale impossible.

OK, never mind, auctions are horrible, you should stay away :ROFLMAO:
 

Boogerman

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So, the professional sellers have found a way to get reasonable value out of a dead guys stuff instead of giving it away at u-**** prices. It's not a detriment that there's not enough meat left on the bones for you to buy it and resell it on ebay or facebook and make a high profit. That sounds like a success for the family, and for the seller putting in the work, who's getting decent pay for putting in a lot of work to prepare and sell the stuff.

I don't get u-**** mentality here, guys proud gave widow or family member cleaning out estate 5% of items value, so could flip for a profit. And, piss/moan when nice stuff sells too high for them to do that. What wrong about the auctioneer making 30% to sell the item, but it's okay you make 150% flipping item on ebay? Whatever became of buying items you could legitimately use, for a price fair to both buyer and seller? I do understand taking a bargain when a seller prices and advertises it themself, if they price it at $10 and you pay the $10, that's a willing buyer and seller. But, to complain that a $1000 item is priced for $950 instead of $125, that's poor form. Just pass it up if you don't want to pay $1000. On an auction, you can see what the selling price is, and put in your maximum price, minus the add on percentages. If someone else is willing to pay more, it was worth that to them. No reason to complain if it's worth more to someone else than to you so you can't buy it; if you wanted and needed it badly, you could have bid more.

This auction looks like a chance to get some high quality hard to find tools. As such, buyers wanting the stuff will pay pretty decent prices to get those desirable items. Nothing wrong with that. I saw a couple things I would love to have, but not willing to drive 2500 miles to pick up. Be a great opportunity for someone local.
 

Tynee

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So, the professional sellers have found a way to get reasonable value out of a dead guys stuff instead of giving it away at u-**** prices. It's not a detriment that there's not enough meat left on the bones for you to buy it and resell it on ebay or facebook and make a high profit. That sounds like a success for the family, and for the seller putting in the work, who's getting decent pay for putting in a lot of work to prepare and sell the stuff.

I don't get u-**** mentality here, guys proud gave widow or family member cleaning out estate 5% of items value, so could flip for a profit. And, piss/moan when nice stuff sells too high for them to do that. What wrong about the auctioneer making 30% to sell the item, but it's okay you make 150% flipping item on ebay? Whatever became of buying items you could legitimately use, for a price fair to both buyer and seller? I do understand taking a bargain when a seller prices and advertises it themself, if they price it at $10 and you pay the $10, that's a willing buyer and seller. But, to complain that a $1000 item is priced for $950 instead of $125, that's poor form. Just pass it up if you don't want to pay $1000. On an auction, you can see what the selling price is, and put in your maximum price, minus the add on percentages. If someone else is willing to pay more, it was worth that to them. No reason to complain if it's worth more to someone else than to you so you can't buy it; if you wanted and needed it badly, you could have bid more.

This auction looks like a chance to get some high quality hard to find tools. As such, buyers wanting the stuff will pay pretty decent prices to get those desirable items. Nothing wrong with that. I saw a couple things I would love to have, but not willing to drive 2500 miles to pick up. Be a great opportunity for someone local.
You say all this like "if you don't like it, pass" is a novel concept. It ain't... And that's what Zendriver and I (and many others) are choosing to do. The fees are stupid high, so we don't participate. Then we come on here and point out that the fees are stupid high, and we're somehow complaining?
 

rooster59

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I know a few people who hired an auction company to deal with an estate. None of them made more than peanuts. There's no reason a relative can't get a table, chair, hammer, PA system and do it yourself. Cash immediately. You don't have to talk like a coked up Woody Woodpecker, just be reasonable.
 

Boogerman

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You say all this like "if you don't like it, pass" is a novel concept. It ain't... And that's what Zendriver and I (and many others) are choosing to do. The fees are stupid high, so we don't participate. Then we come on here and point out that the fees are stupid high, and we're somehow complaining?
Yes, you are complaining. The fees aren't stupid high, they are set by you, the bidder, and can be set at will by you. If you elect not to bid, you elect to pay no fee. If you see a $100 item, and you pay $30, you pay $4.50 fee. If you think the fee should be $2.50, then bid $15. If you bid $100 on the $100 item, you then pay $15, and have exceeded the price of the item. But, you, the bidder set and accepted that cost.

What you are complaining about is that prices between a willing buyer and seller are higher than you would like to pay. Unfortunately, in an inflationary economy, particularly for very desirable items, we may not be able to buy things we want at the price we'd like to pay. Particularly if we want to buy them cheap and resell for our own profit.

If the prices are truly "too high", meaning that someone in the selling chain is making too high a profit, the buyers refraining from buying fixes that because the prices have to be dropped to make it sell. In an auction, that process is automatic, you stop bidding when the price reaches your threshold.

You are putting downward pressure on prices for the other buyers, by refraining from bidding, so the system is working to adjust the prices to market rate. As I said in my post, that's a success for the sellers and buyers, although it looks like a problem to the u-**** wannabe buyers.

Really, the TLDR version: You are complaining that someone else is willing to pay more for something than you. You are making the wise decision to just not buy. Kudos to you.
 

Bert_

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So, the professional sellers have found a way to get reasonable value out of a dead guys stuff instead of giving it away at u-**** prices. It's not a detriment that there's not enough meat left on the bones for you to buy it and resell it on ebay or facebook and make a high profit. That sounds like a success for the family, and for the seller putting in the work, who's getting decent pay for putting in a lot of work to prepare and sell the stuff.

I don't get u-**** mentality here, guys proud gave widow or family member cleaning out estate 5% of items value, so could flip for a profit. And, piss/moan when nice stuff sells too high for them to do that. What wrong about the auctioneer making 30% to sell the item, but it's okay you make 150% flipping item on ebay? Whatever became of buying items you could legitimately use, for a price fair to both buyer and seller? I do understand taking a bargain when a seller prices and advertises it themself, if they price it at $10 and you pay the $10, that's a willing buyer and seller. But, to complain that a $1000 item is priced for $950 instead of $125, that's poor form. Just pass it up if you don't want to pay $1000. On an auction, you can see what the selling price is, and put in your maximum price, minus the add on percentages. If someone else is willing to pay more, it was worth that to them. No reason to complain if it's worth more to someone else than to you so you can't buy it; if you wanted and needed it badly, you could have bid more.

This auction looks like a chance to get some high quality hard to find tools. As such, buyers wanting the stuff will pay pretty decent prices to get those desirable items. Nothing wrong with that. I saw a couple things I would love to have, but not willing to drive 2500 miles to pick up. Be a great opportunity for someone local.
The scalpers are the frustrating part for me. I just want to buy stuff to use.

There's still deals to be had. Just depends on what you want
 

zendriver

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So, the professional sellers have found a way to get reasonable value out of a dead guys stuff instead of giving it away at u-**** prices. It's not a detriment that there's not enough meat left on the bones for you to buy it and resell it on ebay or facebook and make a high profit. That sounds like a success for the family, and for the seller putting in the work, who's getting decent pay for putting in a lot of work to prepare and sell the stuff.

I don't get u-**** mentality here, guys proud gave widow or family member cleaning out estate 5% of items value, so could flip for a profit. And, piss/moan when nice stuff sells too high for them to do that. What wrong about the auctioneer making 30% to sell the item, but it's okay you make 150% flipping item on ebay? Whatever became of buying items you could legitimately use, for a price fair to both buyer and seller? I do understand taking a bargain when a seller prices and advertises it themself, if they price it at $10 and you pay the $10, that's a willing buyer and seller. But, to complain that a $1000 item is priced for $950 instead of $125, that's poor form. Just pass it up if you don't want to pay $1000. On an auction, you can see what the selling price is, and put in your maximum price, minus the add on percentages. If someone else is willing to pay more, it was worth that to them. No reason to complain if it's worth more to someone else than to you so you can't buy it; if you wanted and needed it badly, you could have bid more.

This auction looks like a chance to get some high quality hard to find tools. As such, buyers wanting the stuff will pay pretty decent prices to get those desirable items. Nothing wrong with that. I saw a couple things I would love to have, but not willing to drive 2500 miles to pick up. Be a great opportunity for someone local.
Sour grapes for lunch?

I have no hard feelings for the sellers making money, or even the auctioneers - when they used to put in a lot of work/cost putting on a live auction. And it was a lot of work. I could see the what they had to deal with. Printing and mailing flyers (before auctionzip), labor, to move clean and arrange items for auction, ringers, clerks, concessions, cleanup security, etc.

Now one person walks around and take crappy pics, lists and have one person sit and watch buyers pick up the lots. Definitely worth 30% :headscrat

They were auctions. If I won an item it was the most money anyone was willing to pay.

It's not about greed. Paying top dollar and trying to resell at any profit it just a stupid waste of time and money.
 

MOS3522

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It's not about greed. Paying top dollar and trying to resell at any profit it just a stupid waste of time and money.


For sure. Resellers who pay too much and miss the market don't last. But you still see it a lot among the newbies at the auctions.
 

Tynee

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Yes, you are complaining. The fees aren't stupid high, they are set by you, the bidder, and can be set at will by you. If you elect not to bid, you elect to pay no fee. If you see a $100 item, and you pay $30, you pay $4.50 fee. If you think the fee should be $2.50, then bid $15. If you bid $100 on the $100 item, you then pay $15, and have exceeded the price of the item. But, you, the bidder set and accepted that cost.

What you are complaining about is that prices between a willing buyer and seller are higher than you would like to pay. Unfortunately, in an inflationary economy, particularly for very desirable items, we may not be able to buy things we want at the price we'd like to pay. Particularly if we want to buy them cheap and resell for our own profit.

If the prices are truly "too high", meaning that someone in the selling chain is making too high a profit, the buyers refraining from buying fixes that because the prices have to be dropped to make it sell. In an auction, that process is automatic, you stop bidding when the price reaches your threshold.

You are putting downward pressure on prices for the other buyers, by refraining from bidding, so the system is working to adjust the prices to market rate. As I said in my post, that's a success for the sellers and buyers, although it looks like a problem to the u-**** wannabe buyers.

Really, the TLDR version: You are complaining that someone else is willing to pay more for something than you. You are making the wise decision to just not buy. Kudos to you.
Thanks for the lecture on ecomonics. You seem to have a good grip on the free market system. Kudos to you.

I'm not buying anything to resell, I'm trying to pay a reasonable price for quality goods. And, I'm not complaining about anything. I'm on here saying, "It would be nice if `I could find some things I want at reasonable prices. The stupid high fees make it so I can't, so I don't buy." There's no complaint there. Complaining would be if I bought it anyway, then came whining about the price of it.

The stupid high fees just artificially depress what your willing buyer gives to your willing seller and limits the number of people willing to bid. I thought the reason to hire an auctioneer was to INCREASE the exposure you're getting, limiting the buyers with artificially high fees is the opposite of what the seller is paying the auctioneer for.

What it boils down to is the auctioneers weren't making enough or weren't happy with how much they were making, so they found a way to cut costs AND extract more money from the pocket of the SELLER. The fees limit the bidder pool and limit how much the buyers are willing to bid. Good for them I suppose, bad for everyone else involved.

A couple questions for you. First, if the buyer's premium has to be charged to cover the auctioneer's costs, and they charge me for everything else (take to office fee, shipping fee, freight/shipping charges, credit card processing fee...) what does the fee the seller pays cover?

Second, if a buyer's premium is really justifiable and isn't a stupid fee, why hasn't eBay caught on and started charging both sides of the transaction for their services?
 

Tynee

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They were auctions. If I won an item it was the most money anyone was willing to pay.
Yeah, I hate to admit it because I love winning an auction as much as the next guy, but I have a hard time not following up that celebration with the realization, "wait... I just paid more for that than anybody else in the world thought it was worth... D'oh!!"
 

Boogerman

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Buyers premium is very simple: Auctioneers carefully analyzed both ways, and found that prices come out higher when there's a buyers fee. They reduced the percentage to the seller, and added the buyers fee to replace it in their income stream. Overall, prices went up and both seller and auctioneer made more.

It doesn't cost the seller in lost revenue, and the fees are competitive between auction houses. It's a free economy, those that think the auctioneers are making too much for very little work are free to start up their own business, cut the fees by say 5% to be more competitive, and rake in the bucks! Pretty similar scenario to those that think tradesman or mechanic prices are too high, the opportunity exists to jump in with your own business, and reap the high price benefits for yourself, or lower your prices to what you think is more reasonable and provide a valuable service to your fellow man, while simultaneously putting pressure on the high priced ones to reduce their rates.

I can also assure you if all bidders simply refrain from bidding on buyers premium auctions, that practice would entirely stop. It continues because it's successful in bringing in the most money overall on the sale.

I don't know why ebay doesn't do it, but I think their market is much more sensitive to change, and they know that doing anything to alienate bidders will be disastrous for them. Policy changes in the past, although small, have resulted in gross sales reductions of 20% or more for months until the buyers get used to the changes. Even small changes in the software to change the look of the search or buy screens drastically reduces sales, at least temporarily.
 

zendriver

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Yeah, I hate to admit it because I love winning an auction as much as the next guy, but I have a hard time not following up that celebration with the realization, "wait... I just paid more for that than anybody else in the world thought it was worth... D'oh!!"
Been there, done that, more than once.
 

Tynee

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They reduced the percentage to the seller, and added the buyers fee to replace it in their income stream.
If they actually reduced their fees to the seller, then fine. I'll sulk off in disgrace. I have my doubts that they did, but have no way to prove one way or the other.

BTW, back to the sanctimonious assertion that some of us are just complaining, how do you think the market communicates that a price is too high? Buyers talk to each other and come to agree that the fees are excessive. Sellers talk to each other and realize, "I didn't make near what I thought I would on my father's estate." It's all part of the process.
 

RoninB4

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That little lathe and some of the other items are very cool. Is there a modern/China equivalent of that small lathe or mill?
-Can't see the maker name of the one mill but I can see the other....Hauser. You will NOT find something of that quality from China. The other small lathe is a miniature of a Monarch 10EE and likely just a curio widget the owner liked. If this link is to the auction that was posted a few months ago then I would not expect to find a Chinese equivalent to ANYTHING he had in that collection because everything I saw was all top tier items. The Chinese may be capable of making (copying) knock-offs but it's not likely you'll find them here in the USA.
 

Boogerman

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I don't see myself as sanctimonious about the complaining, I was just trying to make a point that the buyers fee is irrelevant, only the final price is relevant, and complaining about the buyers fee is really just complaining that someone else is willing to pay more for the item than you are.

The auction business is, and has been for some time, becoming less and less viable for the auctioneers, and they've had to adapt to try to cut costs and increase profits. Online sales cut costs and risks, and let them work with fewer people on the payroll. Buyers premiums and higher percentage fees are ways to try to keep the income up. Number of auction sales has been severely impacted by yard sales, facebook and craigslist, and ebay. Even when the family elects to go with an auction, most of the high value, easy to sell pieces are siphoned off and sold by the family using these venues, to avoid paying the auctioneer what they see as a high fee for easy to sell pieces. The commission on those high value items used to be what covered the expenses to sell the lower value items. Now the low value items have to carry their own weight, and increased percentage fee is how they do that.

The service the auctioneer provides for the family is that they sell everything that's saleable, and depending on the fee structure agreed to, will sort out the garbage and dispose ahead of time, take on all the risks of the sale site, sell the remaining items, etc. With a typical estate bringing in $15,000 or less; 30% of that doesn't make the auctioneer rich; it's a fair amount of work for their money.

Whether that's a good deal for the sellers is debatable, but what is pretty definite in the industry is that it's not as lucrative as it was 20 or 30 years ago when there were many live auctions, and sellers let them sell the high value items.
 

Rc_Guy

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Joined
Apr 14, 2013
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Location
Minnesota
I guess Minneapolis is a lot larger than I thought - you don't happen to go by there on your way to/from work? ;)
The Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area is a thriving community of nearly 3 million people, in 7 counties and 182 communities, encompassing nearly 3,000 square miles.
 
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