Interesting comparision- conversation starter, about the difference between heat type costs

[iadr]

Youtube link So I spent a couple hours checking the math of a post I saw online, and FWIW this started off as a for-myself analysis of the content below that Youtube video- just formally giving him credit for the concept and initial research.
I redid the calcs based on recent cost shifts and my specific locality (Edmonton Alberta)

So here goes:

Costs to occasionally heat shop with different sources of energy over a few months of winter season.

Lets calculate for 25million BTU (just seems like a fair number- can be flexed to apply to multiple sizes, ambient temps etc.)
I tried to allow for the fact that anything but the first and last have losses.

type -------------------------------------------amount required----- best case (US $) ----- my local case CDN$
ELECTRIC 99% efficient x7330 KWH= 7400KWh required): $888 (rate $0.12kw) or ( at my $0.20 = $1480)
DIESEL, pump (fuel oil #2).85 efficiency x180 USGal= 211 US gal) : $1053 (rate $4.99gallon) or at my at 1.80/litre = $1435)
KEROSENE, bulk delivery fuel oil #1: (182US galx .85 efficiency =215 US gal x $5.15 gallon= $1108 , or at $2.05 litre = $7.75/gal =$1666
NATURAL GAS, .85 efficency x 26.4GJ requires 31GJ, 293 therms= $260 (rate $0.89therm) at $7.50/Gj = $233
PROPANE-LPG .85 efficiency x 273 gal requires 321gal = $884 (rate $2.75gallon) (1.30/litre is$4.90 by my calc's= $1575)
WOOD PELLETS .80 efficiency and 8K BTU per pound requires 6400 lbs, 160 bags= $800 (rate $5 per 40#bag) ($7.00/40lb bag = $1120)
WOOD: .80 efficiency 1.55 cords birch, or 1.84 cords spruce/MB Maple(boxelder) mix or 2.1 aspen range
$406 (rate$250 4*4*8cord) or $162 (rate$100 4*4*8cord) or in my case ($760 birch=$1234, or $500/cord spruce mix= $920, $400/cord aspen= $840)

Heat pump (these give what % of rated? 100%?) - 18K BTU, 1645 W = 2300 KWH $456 if 100% of rated

What does anyone dispute?

 

[fitter30]

I regress on your figgers.
Hp a lot more that 100% at what temp
Lp in the 90%+ what appliance
Ng in the 90% + what appliance
Electric 100%
Oil fired boilers 80% water side burner side isn't water side.
Geo off the charts
Did u include delivery charge, demand and taxes?
Just because you use nothing there is a charge for ng and electric.

 

[Mr.N]

So here goes:
type -------------------------------------------amount required----- best case (US $) ----- my local case CDN$
ELECTRIC 99% efficient x7330 KWH= 7400KWh required): $888 (rate $0.12kw) or ( at my $0.20 = $1480)
DIESEL, pump (fuel oil #2).85 efficiency x180 USGal= 211 US gal) : $1053 (rate $4.99gallon) or at my at 1.80/litre = $1435)
KEROSENE, bulk delivery fuel oil #1: (182US galx .85 efficiency =215 US gal x $5.15 gallon= $1108 , or at $2.05 litre = $7.75/gal =$1666
NATURAL GAS, .85 efficency x 26.4GJ requires 31GJ, 293 therms= $260 (rate $0.89therm) at $7.50/Gj = $233
PROPANE-LPG .85 efficiency x 273 gal requires 321gal = $884 (rate $2.75gallon) (1.30/litre is$4.90 by my calc's= $1575)
WOOD PELLETS .80 efficiency and 8K BTU per pound requires 6400 lbs, 160 bags= $800 (rate $5 per 40#bag) ($7.00/40lb bag = $1120)
WOOD: .80 efficiency 1.55 cords birch, or 1.84 cords spruce/MB Maple(boxelder) mix or 2.1 aspen range
$406 (rate$250 4*4*8cord) or $162 (rate$100 4*4*8cord) or in my case ($760 birch=$1234, or $500/cord spruce mix= $920, $400/cord aspen= $840)

When I grew up wood was by far the cheapest... a couple of teenage boys, dad with a truck, chainsaw and axe to show the boys how to split wood was the cost of gas & food.

 

[jblnut]

WOOD: .80 efficiency 1.55 cords birch, or 1.84 cords spruce/MB Maple(boxelder) mix or 2.1 aspen range
$406 (rate$250 4*4*8cord) or $162 (rate$100 4*4*8cord) or in my case ($760 birch=$1234, or $500/cord spruce mix= $920, $400/cord aspen= $840)

What does anyone dispute?

Wowser that seems crazy spendy for wood. I assume by you saying "in your case" means those are local prices you've found ? Around here you'd be slapped if you asked even half of those prices.

I burn wood and figure it's a hobby of sorts. I like cutting wood and all that goes with it so my only annual costs are gas/oil and around $30/mo in electricity to run the stove/pumps/furnace fans.

 

[86turbodsl]

No wood around there? Around here, we have enough deadfall to keep anybody in wood most of the time.
Nat gas still that cheap?

 

[428PI]

I went from spending 2k a year with propane to 60 bucks last month with a minisplit. If it keeps up(will supplement with a little propane to light the wood) I'll save 1500 bucks this year.

 

[gmcgeo]

I went from spending 2k a year with propane to 60 bucks last month with a minisplit. If it keeps up(will supplement with a little propane to light the wood) I'll save 1500 bucks this year.

how much was the initial cost to install mini split in? all in with power ran and everything?

 

[428PI]

I believe that the unit was 2500. I probably have another 300 in electrical. I did all my work myself. It's a 3 input 27k outdoor unit with a 9k and 18k wall units.

 

[iadr]

I regress on your figgers.
Hp a lot more that 100% at what temp
Lp in the 90%+ what appliance
Ng in the 90% + what appliance
Electric 100%
Oil fired boilers 80% water side burner side isn't water side.
Geo off the charts
Did u include delivery charge, demand and taxes?
Just because you use nothing there is a charge for ng and electric.

To keep the conversation going... (I didn't see replies until an hour ago).
Sorry if any phrases sound defensive or cocky. I did research this reasonably well, but neither tone is meant...sometimes by giving my whole set of thoughts it can seem that way...was told that by a recently former boss.

I was focused on what "hardware" I could reasonably afford for a garage. Reasonable being very subjective, I know.
I considered that I was already paying Gas and Electric contract fees for the home and those were baseline and inescapable, so tried to stick with just the usage fees (ie whatever total amount was proportional to qty used, and yes that does have add-ons beyond the list price). So that gave kind of round figures of .20 KWH and 7.50/GJ rounded up off my recent bill - and fwiw, thus should have paid more attention to significant figures in the output of my calcs!)

I do have a condensing furnace (N/g,95-96%) in the home but questioned if I wanted that investment in the garage, or that other readers would, so used 85%...typical of say a good take out unit when someone upgrades.
As an aside, interestingly, ventless- despite my misgivings - are 99% efficient (propane, kerosene), are they not? but, I'm pretty careful of my health...so...

Oil-hydronic is pretty unheard of in my region, so I'm inexpert on those. It was a ball park.

I was also inexpert on how to read stats on heat pumps. I gave myself a crash course on the "U-of-internet" since posting. (I didn't get updates that I'd gotten a reply- my bad they are probably turned off)
I now understand COP and HSPF are used as ratings, and that they have essentially identical meaning & are direct/linear to each other.
Turns out I used the CSA/UL specs from a specific unit, and the COP was (working backward), 3.21 on my example. I think that's fair. I'd also mention it is going down to a low of -15*F here tonight before warming up again. So in my case, heat pumps just are not a thing locally... and with the big picture view this little research project gave me, I now I know why- as well as quantifying for myself how I've heard how remarkably effective they are elsewhere. (And, now I have a major leg up on researching how to do a budget AC install for the home, so time was reasonably well spent).

I knew wood was hard to quantify. I'm urban. I don't have rural land, a chainsaw, or a vehicle suited (nor wanted to use up a favour). So I went on the local buy and sell (we use Kijiji locally) and found what it would be delivered to my door. In the case I rounded down from a 1/2 cord for $400 to $750. IMO fair to quote this way, b/c the other options were delivered, too... though I see both sides of that, for sure.
Locally we have aspen- it's a poor fuel wood- low BTU and in my limited experience strangely difficult to burn without a stench. If you search it out we have the preferred birch and spruce within say 1.5-2h round trip. I agree I appear to quote worst case for wood. Other's costs may be a fraction, though it's never free per se. It's also peak price season, and its price has risen because the MSM has been pounding how heating costs have risen. *eye roll* Also that is Cdn dollar, so $750 is roughly US $550 for the good stuff, but yes, prices are high.

Propane- yes I picked kind of worst case pricing of 1.295/litre (again Canadian$). Even if I could get it for 99cents- which is below what the Commodities price appears to be, it still didn't really bring it into appeal. (Hence the other thread I started on converting a propane heater I already own to NG...that was my lesson learned here...)

 

[gmcgeo]

I believe that the unit was 2500. I probably have another 300 in electrical. I did all my work myself. It's a 3 input 27k outdoor unit with a 9k and 18k wall units.

Pretty good price, I see these mr. cools going for about 3-4k now with the same heads. i may pull the trigger on it soon. This would be for my garage only.

 

[PoorUB]

Guys rave about heat pumps, and I have no issue with them, but people need to understand they may be 300% at 40F but start to go downhill at some point. Most are break even with resistance heat before 0F, although a few will get father below zero before they get to that point.
A lower priced model might break even close to 32F.
They are only highly efficient in cool weather. Natural gas may beat a HP on the average.

 

[428PI]

Most are break even with resistance heat before 0F

I haven't seen the specs but I really wonder if the electrical load gets reduced along with less output at low temps with heat pumps. I have 27k of btu output when cool and it has kept my old main floor of house (roughly 1300 sq ft) warm to 65-70 in 17 degree mornings whereas my main furnace is an old inefficient Longwood 115btu propane and wood furnace. Probably only 60 percent efficient on gas. I'm going to use it mainly for woodburning and use propane for only lighting the fire (maybe let it run 15 minutes to get wood started). I can add another 9k wall unit to my outdoor unit for more heat and ac if I need it.

 

[dave*99]

I'm generalizing here - but in cold climates where natural gas is available, that usually wins. Of course free or nearly free wood is a contender if you can get it. But I will watch this thread and see what you find.

I occasionally heat my garage in the winter with a 30,000 Btu wall mounted non vented NG heater. In NJ. It works great. I don't use it enough to justify anything more complicated.

Last house I had a 45000 Btu NG garage heater. Power vented. Ceiling hung. It was a Dayton and looks like the typical Modine or Mr. Heater. Also worked great.

Shop size, insulation, desired temperature, Run time, installation cost..... all need consideration.

 

[fitter30]

Mini splits for a garage isn't the best idea. Wall units have thin filters that could only stop rock, bottles and kids. The fins are enhanced meaning they have small slits in them and are wavy. Look at a you tube video on cleaning indoor units.

 

[dave*99]

Mini splits for a garage isn't the best idea. Wall units have thin filters that could only stop rock, bottles and kids. The fins are enhanced meaning they have small slits in them and are wavy. Look at a you tube video on cleaning indoor units.

All true. I've seen many photos of woodworkers building large filter boxes on the air intake side their mini-splits to keep the sawdust out. The blower is tiny and can't deal with much restriction, so filter area must be very large.