Interesting Photo

[Jagmandave]

View media item 52633
On my Facebook feed today.....caption follows:


Robby Myhan



This is wrench broaching. Notice the first 10 snap-on wrenches are in a perfect line. Next set of 10 craftsman are not. The next is Mac wrenches. Pretty good and Matco on the end not to good. what does broaching mean. It means that weather you have a wrench from 1940-50-60-70 or today. The are made with the same 9 degree broaching. Meaning in a confined area where you can't get a full turn on the fastener all you got to do is turn the wrench over and the9 degree broach will allow you to get the rest of the turn. Competition doesn't have it. Just the little things that make Snap-Ons American made wrenches better

 

[thebeekeeper1]

I don't think that's what that pic shows. :/

 

[HanShotFirst]

I guess I don't understand how that makes a wrench "better", consistency in the placement of broaching. Where the broaching starts, especially on a 12pt wrench seems to be completely irrelevant, maybe some relevance on a 6 point but I'm not completely convinced there either.

The consistency in holding to spec of the broaching is what is important, not that it starts in exactly the same place wrench to wrench. It looks nice, and it sound really cool, but I'm unconvinced that it really means anything when you take a wrench to a bolt.

All that shows is that every one of those Snap On wrenches were made at the same broaching station.

What really sets Snap On apart is more in their metallurgy, consistency in their heat treatment, and the accuracy of their broaching and the fact they hold a spec very well. This means they pay more for broaches and retire them earlier than most other tool makers; one of the things that drives up cost.

 

[Askme42]

I don't think that's what that pic shows. :/

All this pic and message is doing is banking on the uninformed.

 

[3baygarage]

I know I've seen this picture somewhere before. Probably here of course.

 

[Air21]

I like how the "best" wrenches are in the foreground next to the "worst" so the difference seems huge, and that the other truck brands are in the back of the shot harder to see.

My personal favorite is the video of that walrus looking guy illustrating the "strength" of the different tool box designs by stacking up wooden blocks. Because who doesent like condescending marketing right?

Video

 

[kiatech]

Too bad that applies to the open end and not the box end..

 

[MikeF2316]

Of course, when you're designing the test, who's to say they didn't go over to a bin with 1000 wrenches in it and pick the 10 that were closest?

 

[tool_scrounge]

I guess I don't understand how that makes a wrench "better", consistency in the placement of broaching. Where the broaching starts, especially on a 12pt wrench seems to be completely irrelevant, maybe some relevance on a 6 point but I'm not completely convinced there either.

If I understand the math correctly, with a 12 point socket, each point is spaced 30 degrees apart. So if the point is aligned with the axis (handle) of the wrench, the 12 point pattern is symmetric around the handle. So flipping it over makes no difference and you need to move the wrench 30 degrees minimum before removing it from the fastener and re-indexing. The same is true if the point is spaced 15 degrees from the handle (still symmetric, still 30 degrees minimum motion before re indexing.

But if the point is spaced 7.5 degrees off the centerline of the handle, the next point on the other side of the centerline is then 30-7.5=22.5 degrees off of the centerline. So then flipping the wrench has an advantage, as you can move the fastener 22.5-7.5=15 degrees minimum before reindexing.

So by offsetting the broach angle 7.5 degrees off of centerline, you can remove bolts in a smaller area (30 degrees angle vs. 15 degrees). Please note the angle could be plus or minus 7.5 degrees and still work fine.

However, recently I was working on a project with two identical angled combo wrenches (craftsman industrial) and if the broach angle was not consistent, it would have been a minor pain. Fortunately they matched and all was well.

If the wrench had 6 point sockets, the optimal broach angle offset would be 15 degrees if I am doing the math right.

 

[Fugio]

This is what they mean by "law of diminishing returns." You pay MUCH more for features you'll never, ever notice or care about.

 

[coleman10]

I like how the "best" wrenches are in the foreground next to the "worst" so the difference seems huge, and that the other truck brands are in the back of the shot harder to see.

My personal favorite is the video of that walrus looking guy illustrating the "strength" of the different tool box designs by stacking up wooden blocks. Because who doesent like condescending marketing right?

Video

Wow. If that doesn't turn me off to snap-on, not sure what will. Sell your wares by touting its own strengths, not by bad-mouthing the competition. Unethical.

 

[AnEv942]

Glad that other reasons for snap on q/c were made and the offset in broaching is not thier high point. I have a $5 / 7piece metric wrench set from checker I bought in a pinch one day. They have the offset, flip over and you work a bolt where you dont have room for full swing. (When the offset doesnt get in the way). But nice thought-

I have a Craftsman long handle set thats also offset. All the standard Craftsman I have broach is centered. Sometimes the offset is handy but again on open end usually cant flip due to angle of head. If Im flipping the wrench got wrong tool to finish.

 

[OkRider]

Wow. If that doesn't turn me off to snap-on, not sure what will. Sell your wares by touting its own strengths, not by bad-mouthing the competition. Unethical.

Why didn't he throw Lista in with the mix?

 

[iScream]

....

 

[PugetDude]

That's a Snap-on display from a trade show.
Enough said.

 

[2talltim]

Funny how people that waste money on these types of things are always trying to justify it.


Other things I get a chuckle about are shade tree bubbys trying to sell their Snapon 7ft high tool castles for $6000 crying that they paid $10000 for it.

And before I get burnt at the stake do I think Snapon is a premium brand that is slightly better quality? YES. Do I think it's worth 3 or 4 times the price ? Hell no.

 

[stihlntime]

Where was Stahlwille and Hazet? I would like to see a actual test between those two and SO. Who cares if they are mirror finished chrome or not. Every touts SO as the brand that will take the abuse how do they stack up in measured failure test? The variables such as their thin edge biting in the hand undercextreme use would be hard to measure, maybe a indention test in material were the density was uniform.

 

[organ]

Where was Stahlwille and Hazet? I would like to see a actual test between those two and SO. Who cares if they are mirror finished chrome or not. Every touts SO as the brand that will take the abuse how do they stack up in measured failure test? The variables such as their thin edge biting in the hand undercextreme use would be hard to measure, maybe a indention test in material were the density was uniform.

Who cares... neither of those are readily available in the U.S.

 

[educated shade tree]

When looking at selecting tools. Each manufacturer has there on strategy to make the compatishion not look as good. You can stand point know if is great to buy SO if the funds are available. I have found that some of the less expensive brands can work just as well. (Craftsman, proto,SK) If you like having the trucks come to you or that you go find one. The other brands that I have mentioned you can go too a store and get the tool replaced. I would like to say Made in the USA but most of all the manufacturers have some tools made outside the US. I also feel that if you have older tools from the manufacturers I have mentioned and the tools were made in the USA.

I have found that when you make a living with your tools the trucks coming to you makes getting new or replacements are simpler but that comes with a price tag. When you are doing it as a DIYER the quality store bought tools will accomplish the Job.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[Mikerodrig27]

It's funny, how many people to you know that actually move around a tool box that size? I'm getting the vibe from this site that professional brand tools aren't all they're cracked up to be. I have a set of Autocraft 6 point sockets that I use for breaking oil pan bolts all day long. We have a lot of Toyotas where I live so I use the 14mm the most out of the set. It works as good as it did when I bought it at autozone 5 years ago...

I'll purchase pro tools used on Craigs or on Ebay but I can believe the prices I see when I look on the trucks. These tool trucks have got to realize that people who work on cars as techs don't make a ton of money. There are a few exceptions but for the most part a lot of techs are people who are paid under 20/hr making large payments for tools... It's sad but true.

 

[iScream]

I posted this last night but then doubted myself and erased it. First, I'm not a snap-on hater. They obviously make very high quality tools. But isn't having 12 points what allows you to switch your wrench the other way and get a little more turn if needed? I'm not so sure what is shown in that picture matters one bit.

Why would you actually care whether those 12 points are perfectly aligned between two different wrenches? If every nut and bolt you are going to turn was aligned exactly the same, and that alignment perfectly matched how those 12 points are cut into your wrench, maybe it would matter. But probably not so much even then.

This looks like a, very effective apparently, marketing gimmick to me. I'm willing to be educated here though.

-Chris

PS: If someone will send me a set of Snap-on wrenches and a set and a set of Matco wrenches, I will volunteer to build a test fixture and make a video to prove this one way or the other. Keeping the wrenches would be compensation for my valuable time, of course.

 

[jptbay]

How are you going to flip over the box end and use it, when the wrench is bent 15 degrees?

Marketing deception.

 

[iScream]

Nevermind, my brain hurts now.

 

[bigredmf]

Why didn't he throw Lista in with the mix?

Huh?

 

[Negen]

How are you going to flip over the box end and use it, when the wrench is bent 15 degrees?

Marketing deception.

Maybe with 0 offset you could flip it. Almost always unless some fastener is located in an odd position I reach for 0 offsets. I seem to like them better mainly because mine are longer than my 15 degree offsets I guess.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I don't think there is an advantage to having all of your box ends indexed the same, but I think this display helps to demonstrate attention to detail in manufacturing. FWIW, I don't own any Snap On wrenches, but I can appreciate this level of quality control. At the end of the day, it's a trade show setup, so I don't know that the other brands are fairly represented.

 

[uart]

View media item 52633
Notice the first 10 snap-on wrenches are in a perfect line. Next set of 10 craftsman are not.

TBH it looks to me that those craftman wrenches probably are broached correctly for a 6 point box end. It appears that they are all broached with an offset of close to +/- 15 degrees, just as they should.

The two that are "sticking upwards" just need to be flipped over and they will be offset the same as the others. Sure that will put the offset of the open end "**** about", but does that really matter? I mean, does it really matter what the orientation of the open end is doing when you are using the box end?

 

[GYPSY400]

I've been a mechanic for 15 years and I could care less on where the 12pt is in relation to the handle.. As long as it's 12pt, you can get 1/12 of a turn

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Outlawmws]

How are you going to flip over the box end and use it, when the wrench is bent 15 degrees?

Marketing deception.

This ^^

Unless its a flat box end, (not generally desirable) it's NOT going to be helpful to flip it over to get the last nth degree of movement.

So the "test" and "proof of a theory" is damaged goods... :tard:

 

[Fedwrench]

Snap on Propaganda

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of Snap on but, the older I get I have a dimmer view of them.
I mean a 12 point boxed end is designed to be turned and I have to say, I've never needed to line up that many same sized wrenches on any fastener.

I think snap on should have demoed something more meaningful, like how their flare wrenches grip better than anyone elses.

 

[gooblunar]

It may be propaganda, but got you guys talking.

 

[PugetDude]

It may be propaganda, but got you guys talking.

The Snap-on fanboys have to stay mobilized to espouse the virtues of their beloved Snap-on at every opportunity. ...with the HF haters just a half-step behind them...

 

[Olafur]

This could be useful, few times a year.

 

[Olafur]

If I understand the math correctly, with a 12 point socket, each point is spaced 30 degrees apart. So if the point is aligned with the axis (handle) of the wrench, the 12 point pattern is symmetric around the handle. So flipping it over makes no difference and you need to move the wrench 30 degrees minimum before removing it from the fastener and re-indexing.

But if the point is spaced 7.5 degrees off the centerline of the handle, the next point on the other side of the centerline is then 30-7.5=22.5 degrees off of the centerline. So then flipping the wrench has an advantage, as you can move the fastener 22.5-7.5=15 degrees minimum before reindexing.

This sums it up!

 

[coralnut]

View media item 52633
... Meaning in a confined area where you can't get a full turn on the fastener all you got to do is turn the wrench over and the9 degree broach will allow you to get the rest of the turn. Competition doesn't have it. Just the little things that make Snap-Ons American made wrenches better

I'm thinking that if I'm in a confined area where I can't get a full turn on the fastener, and I have to remove the wrench to flip it over, then I'd have to be stupid to put that same wrench back on and keep taking it off and flipping it again and again -- once the fastener is moving, if I have to take the wrench off I'd rather put a ratcheting wrench on than flip that sucker over again and again and again.

That's a pretty lousy marketing pitch if you ask me. It preys on people who aren't thinking clearly.

 

[Olafur]

Chances are your ratcheting wrench is to bulky and it's impossible to turn the combination wrench around because of the offset.

Then you have to resort another combination wrench with different angle on the broaching and work out the fastener using both wrenches alternatively. Great fun!

 

[Cato]

And before I get burnt at the stake do I think Snapon is a premium brand that is slightly better quality? YES. Do I think it's worth 3 or 4 times the price ? Hell no.

I have yet to see any definitive data that proves Snap On is better quality.





From my own experience I had to return a set of Snap On Flank Drive wrenches due to flaking chrome. I bought them from the Snap On website and they were brand new. Needless to say, Snap On's quality control was seriously flawed. Who knows where else in the manufacturing process, the quality control was bad. And, returning it was no easy task - they definitely gave me the run around.

The only thing that would convince me of Snap On's superior quality is some metallurgical analysis and comparison with other brands. Lots of guys claim Snap On uses superior tool steel. I would like to see some documentation on that.

Otherwise, I see no difference in quality between my Snap On wrenches and
Chinese Husky. Considering my Husky wrenches never had flaking chrome, my Snap On wrenches may be of poorer quality.

 

[coralnut]

Chances are your ratcheting wrench is to bulky and it's impossible to turn the combination wrench around because of the offset.

Then you have to resort another combination wrench with different angle on the broaching and work out the fastener using both wrenches alternatively. Great fun!

In other words, you *WANT* to own several of the "inconsistent" CMAN wrenches shown in the picture!

I have to do the multiple wrench thing more often than I care to admit when working on K-H ABS systems where the designers put 5 lines in close proximity. Unless you're willing to pull off all of the lines you've got to juggle line wrenches with different broaching.

 

[Olafur]

In other words, you *WANT* to own several of the "inconsistent" CMAN wrenches shown in the picture!

I have to do the multiple wrench thing more often than I care to admit when working on K-H ABS systems where the designers put 5 lines in close proximity. Unless you're willing to pull off all of the lines you've got to juggle line wrenches with different broaching.

Ps
One set of snappys wouldn't hurt though!

 

[uart]

Unless its a flat box end, (not generally desirable) it's NOT going to be helpful to flip it over to get the last nth degree of movement.

Doh, somehow I missed that point before.

Yes you're right of course. Any "indexing" of the box end is pretty much irrelevant on your typical (non zero degree offset) wrench.