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Interesting power issue

American Locomotive

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So lately I've been noticing a very subtle flicker in the lights in my house. It's not continuous, and is very subtle. It will last for between 5-15 seconds, and then come back 1-2 minutes later. The frequency of the flickering seems to be around 20-30 Hz (just a WAG).

It doesn't seem to affect CFL bulbs (at least the CFL bulbs I have), it's very very faintly noticeable in incandescent bulbs and my cheap LED shoplights. It's most noticeable on magnetic-ballast fluorescent fixtures. The F96T12 fixtures out in my barn are bothered by it the most, to the point where it becomes audible in the ballast.

The bar graph on my DMM isn't fast/sensitive enough to notice anything. However, when the flickering is occurring, the line voltage increases by about 200-300 mV, then settles back down when the flickering ends.

Any idea what's going on? I suspect I'm going to have to find someone with oscilloscope, or convince the POCO I'm not just imagining things?
 
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manwithtools

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I had a similar issue when the variable speed fan in one of my HVAC units was dying. It actually caused mildly audible / visible arcing in the breaker panel that I would not have noticed if i had not had the cover off for other reasons.

I was a smoker at the time, I had my morning coffee and smoke at 5am in the dark in the garage and I happened to hear and simultaneously see the arcing in the dark am light. Replaced the motor and the problem went away. It never was enough of a draw to trip the breaker, but the constant pulsing of power caused a small arc at the connection of the breaker to the buss bar. I replaced the breaker just to be safe.

May have nothing to do with your issue, but something worth looking a bit more closely at if you have similar equipment. It was not audible anywhere else in the house BTW.
 

rlitman

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A oscilloscope might catch the issue, but it would be pretty hard to see. I would expect that the waveform might look slightly more triangular than ideally sinusoidal.

Better, would be a meter that shows harmonic distortion (THD, or preferably something that identifies percentages of specific harmonics). Best, would be a clamp meter that can show the distortion in both the voltage and current domains.

Voltage harmonic distortion will give you an idea of how bad your power is. Current harmonics will help you trace down the source of the noise, IF the source is on a circuit in your panel.

I once had a similar issue at my work, and presented all sorts of information, including time-stamped logs, documenting the problem. That led a utility linesman troubleshooting specialist to a neighborhood capacitor bank (for power factor correction) with an arcing contact.
 

grantw

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same thing happened to me in a bathroom light. The switch for the room was on it's way out. I took apart the switch after replacing it, the internal contacts were starting to turn blue. You could have the same issue in a branch breaker or even the main for the house.

Never hurts to look...
 

manwithtools

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Also, this could be related to a loose (maybe only slightly) connection somewhere in your power distribution system.

On the other hand, the place could be possessed..... :)
 

DC73

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Some PoCos will come out and temporarily install a "disturbance analyzer". These devices will monitor and record the waveform and take snapshots of any deviation from normal. The captured waveform can be compared to other known anomalies to help determine the source. They are very effective if you have someone who really knows how to use one and how to interpret the data.

DC
 

Captain Spaulding

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I'd start out by just monitoring voltage on a circuit that has the disturbance. Just a straight voltage drop could cause some of what you are describing. Check the neutral in your panel for signs that is loose or that it may be getting hot.
 

sberry

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There are a lot of problems with N in meter bases and on pole connections, leg connections too. We had the poco out to my Buds place and they insist that all was well, finally a couple months later the line falls right off in the parking lot.
 

vtsoundman

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Make sure it isn't tied to a toaster, toaster oven, microwave, oven, induction cooktop or other 'high current' load. A flicker like you describe can be produced by any scr/diode load that is only working on half the line (as opposed to a full wave bridge rectification). It happens in our house everytime we run the Breville toaster oven - seems they are using SCRs to control the elements. ...to top if off, we have old wiring that seemingly magnifies any power disturbance.

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American Locomotive

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At least one other house on the transformer. I did some testing today, and I can't reliably cause the flickering no matter how much load, or what equipment I turn on. The flickering affects multiple circuits.

I did call the POCO today, and surprisingly they're rolling a truck out to check the lines. Makes me wonder if they got any other complaints if they sent a truck out no questions asked?
 

rlitman

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Not too much of a surprise. A loose neutral can burn your house down, and the only sign you may have in advance is a flickering.
 
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American Locomotive

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National Grid came by and checked everything. Load tested the meter base, checked the pole transformer. Got him to confirm that he saw the flickering too.

VTSoundman nailed it. It's the freaking coffee maker. I couldn't get the lights to flicker at all, then I noticed the Keurig had turned itself off when he disconnected the power. Sure enough, as soon as I started the Keurig up, the lights started flickering again once it finished heating. The stupid thing keeps itself hot 24/7, and it must pulse the heating elements rapidly to do it. I personally hate the damn thing for wasting power like that, but the women of this house practically worship the thing.

I'm going to investigate further and verify the main connections in the panel. I can't believe that little coffee maker uses enough power to make the lights in the entire house flicker like that.
 
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grantw

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Something is wrong if that load is making the house flicker. I'd still check for neutral problems or back-stabbed outlets. My espresso machine is 1600W and doesn't cause my garage lights to flicker. It's a triac controlled heating element, and will pulse to maintain an even pressure in the boiler.
 
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American Locomotive

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No back stabbed outlets. I'll measure the voltage drop from the neutral bus the neutral line coming out of the service entrance cable when I get a chance.
 

Zeke

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We have 2 keurig makers. One is like yours, manual. The other has an internal clock. The one with the internal clock has gone wonky 2wice now and I started to throw it away each time. However, after being unplugged for hours or days, the thing resets itself and works fine for months at a time.

Point being is that I think Keurigs are suspect. And the cups average 75 cents each. Time for a Mr. Coffee. Sorry for going OT.
 

RPH

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Gated rectifiers are known to cause line issues. We have them on the front end of some of the induction equipment we build. Power companies have been known to increase their prices to customers who use the larger ones. I had one machine in a new building that would shut off e office computers when it ran. They knew it was our machine because it only happened when they ran ours. Even the ground wire had horrendous currents flowing on it when running. Engineering said all was fine, they just needed filter strips. That fixed their problem.
 
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American Locomotive

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So I looked into it more, and the Keurig has a 1.5 kW heating element. I'm still going to check the neutral connection, but I can defintely see 1.5 kW pulsing 10-20 times a second causing flickering.
 

rlitman

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So I looked into it more, and the Keurig has a 1.5 kW heating element. I'm still going to check the neutral connection, but I can defintely see 1.5 kW pulsing 10-20 times a second causing flickering.

It can, though it should have been designed to not have that problem.
I wonder if a power factor correction capacitor in it has failed. That could suddenly make such a device inject lots of noise into the power grid when it did not before.
 
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American Locomotive

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From what I can find online, this Keurigs are pretty unrepairable and pretty trouble-prone. I think the short-term solution will just be to put a timer on the machine.
 

wyliesdiesels

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At least one other house on the transformer. I did some testing today, and I can't reliably cause the flickering no matter how much load, or what equipment I turn on. The flickering affects multiple circuits.

I did call the POCO today, and surprisingly they're rolling a truck out to check the lines. Makes me wonder if they got any other complaints if they sent a truck out no questions asked?

My local PoCO Co-op is the same way. They have several troubleshooters that drive around all day troubleshooting.

I have had several issues in the past and dispatcher has rolled troubleshooter out no questions asked.

Local non-profit government PoCo is awesome for that...

Not too much of a surprise. A loose neutral can burn your house down, and the only sign you may have in advance is a flickering.

:+1: yup

National Grid came by and checked everything. Load tested the meter base, checked the pole transformer. Got him to confirm that he saw the flickering too.

VTSoundman nailed it. It's the freaking coffee maker. I couldn't get the lights to flicker at all, then I noticed the Keurig had turned itself off when he disconnected the power. Sure enough, as soon as I started the Keurig up, the lights started flickering again once it finished heating. The stupid thing keeps itself hot 24/7, and it must pulse the heating elements rapidly to do it. I personally hate the damn thing for wasting power like that, but the women of this house practically worship the thing.

I'm going to investigate further and verify the main connections in the panel. I can't believe that little coffee maker uses enough power to make the lights in the entire house flicker like that.

Which model Keurig do you have?

I have had several different models and none of them kept water hot 24/7.

The latest model I have is a 525c bought from costco.

Had the fancier version of that before with the K-carafe...but it had issues... more on that below.

However, mine does not cause lights to flicker when I turn it on in the morning.

Something is wrong if that load is making the house flicker. I'd still check for neutral problems or back-stabbed outlets. My espresso machine is 1600W and doesn't cause my garage lights to flicker. It's a triac controlled heating element, and will pulse to maintain an even pressure in the boiler.

:+1: My keurig doesnt cause that either.

We have 2 keurig makers. One is like yours, manual. The other has an internal clock. The one with the internal clock has gone wonky 2wice now and I started to throw it away each time. However, after being unplugged for hours or days, the thing resets itself and works fine for months at a time.

Point being is that I think Keurigs are suspect.
And the cups average 75 cents each. Time for a Mr. Coffee. Sorry for going OT.

My previous 2 keurigs bought from costco (think it was the K575 version with the Karafe) had issues with clock maintaining the time. That was the only issue. After a lot of digging online, I discovered a rather long thread on amazon of people complaining about the issue to keurig and Keurig issuing free replacement units to customers with very few questions asked.

Some of them replied back and said they came home to a brand new Keurig machine left on their porch by Fed-ex without any notice from Keurig.

Other customers didnt have as much luck getting through to corporate as its a different center that answers the phones.

But Keurig is pretty good with customer service and they HAVE acknowledged the issue. The new Keurig 2.0 was supposedly suppose to have a better chip in it. But it looks like mine is doing the same thing with being unable to keep the time.

Petty pitiful that Keurig cant find a chip in this day and age that can keep the time properly. We have devices that are far cheaper that keep the time like clock work...

I wouldnt have thrown them away if i were you. You couldve gotten a replacement unit..

So I looked into it more, and the Keurig has a 1.5 kW heating element. I'm still going to check the neutral connection, but I can definitely see 1.5 kW pulsing 10-20 times a second causing flickering.

Whats funny is that while my keurig (525c) doesnt cause the lights to flicker, my samsung laser printer does and its really bad. I can tell when the infuser is heating up because it pulses on and off repeatedly for 10 secs or so, causing the lights to flicker in a specific rhythm and pattern.

One of my office outlets must be bad because when my laser printer is plugged into certain outlets, it causes my battery backup to switch to battery and the logs show a brief loss of power. Im sure I have a back-stabbed outlet somewhere that cant handle the brief high current draw. Havent had time to find it so i just found an outlet that doesnt have the issue....

From what I can find online, this Keurigs are pretty unrepairable and pretty trouble-prone. I think the short-term solution will just be to put a timer on the machine.

yup. If you want i will see if i can find the thread on amazon reviews.

Instead of the timer, I would get a better model that doesnt constantly heat the water like mine. You can even program it to heat up at a certain time say 6am, so its ready for use when people get up in the morning.

I bought mine at costco(as i did with the previous 2 units that were the older model) so if i ever have an issue with it i can just return it no issue and no hassle.
 
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American Locomotive

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It's a Keurig 2.0-200. No clock or timer. It just sits there plowing power. The lights don't flicker during its main heating phase. Only once it enters the "stay warm" mode.

I checked voltage between neutral & ground at a random outlet, and I was only getting 8 millivolts. So I'm pretty sure the neutral connection is good.
 

wyliesdiesels

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It's a Keurig 2.0-200. No clock or timer. It just sits there plowing power. The lights don't flicker during its main heating phase. Only once it enters the "stay warm" mode.

I checked voltage between neutral & ground at a random outlet, and I was only getting 8 millivolts. So I'm pretty sure the neutral connection is good.

Do yourself a favor (and the wife will love you for it) and go buy a newer higher end Keurig at Costco that has a timer.

It will save you money because it wont constantly be heating water or working to maintain it.
 

Falcon67

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Just set it to turn off automatically. If you don't have a model with that option, time to upgrade LOL. Have had one at the house for years and there is a big one at work, in a building wired in 1947. No flickering noticed.
 

grantw

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...One of my office outlets must be bad because when my laser printer is plugged into certain outlets, it causes my battery backup to switch to battery and the logs show a brief loss of power. Im sure I have a back-stabbed outlet somewhere that cant handle the brief high current draw. Havent had time to find it so i just found an outlet that doesnt have the issue...

My mom had a contractor built house done recently. The laser in the back bedroom was causing light flicker something awful. The culprit? 14AWG wire, daisy chained and back-stabbed through about 10 outlets on the branch. The home warranty paid for an electrician to drop a 12AWG from the nearby bath circuit, and poke a dedicated outlet through the subfloor. No more flicker.

...The lights don't flicker during its main heating phase. Only once it enters the "stay warm" mode...

Yeah, this is likely a problem with how they designed the "pulse" on the machine. My 1600W espresso machine has 1-2 long second pulses on the "keep warm" mode. The kerug probably does a form of PWM many times a second. :(
 
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American Locomotive

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Yeah, this is likely a problem with how they designed the "pulse" on the machine. My 1600W espresso machine has 1-2 long second pulses on the "keep warm" mode. The kerug probably does a form of PWM many times a second. :(
If they did real PWM it would be fine, since the pulse frequency would be so high it'd be unnoticeable. The problem is they are pulsing at 10-20 hz.

Also no way I'm buying a new one. I hate the thing (I don't drink coffee). I've got a cheap plug-in Intermatic timer rated for 1750 watts. That should do the trick.
 

vtsoundman

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Something is wrong if that load is making the house flicker. I'd still check for neutral problems or back-stabbed outlets. My espresso machine is 1600W and doesn't cause my garage lights to flicker. It's a triac controlled heating element, and will pulse to maintain an even pressure in the boiler.
The cheapest way to control a resistive element is to use a half wave SCR to reduce the duty cycle into the element. Using this method and may cause LEDs and lights to 'flicker'. The human eye is quite sensitive to light intensity fluctuations especially if repeated. It doesn't take very much of a voltage fluctuation to cause a noticeable change in lighting. For full power, my guess is a small sugar cube relay is closed around the SCR...

Your boiler is likely controlling both halves of the AC waveform and is slew rate controlled (slow ramp up/down)...thereby limiting in rush currents (if any)...preventing momentary line sag/neutral offset.

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MikeF2316

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We have 2 keurig makers. One is like yours, manual. The other has an internal clock. The one with the internal clock has gone wonky 2wice now and I started to throw it away each time. However, after being unplugged for hours or days, the thing resets itself and works fine for months at a time.

Point being is that I think Keurigs are suspect. And the cups average 75 cents each. Time for a Mr. Coffee. Sorry for going OT.

Be careful. Mr. Coffees have there own problems. Read the thread by a well respected member... :lol_hitti

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367678
 

nut_buster2017

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Just a thought, but you could put a low cost UPS on the Keurig to act as a buffer when has large current draws.
 

rlitman

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Just a thought, but you could put a low cost UPS on the Keurig to act as a buffer when has large current draws.

A standby UPS does not buffer anything. Power is just passed through from the wall to whatever is plugged into it, unless it is using the auto-transformer to step up or down a brownout. Also, I have personally seen small UPS units switch to battery when the OP's sort of light flickering power issues occur. That takes us to:

A online UPS (or a standby UPS that is running on battery) is limited by the inverter capacity. I am not aware of any low cost units that have the power output to handle a Keurig. And such a UPS would be considerably larger than the Keurig itself.
 

vtsoundman

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Inexpensive UPS will do nothing. Online ups -> big $$ and power hog.

The easy solution...
51UsxA6CVHL._AC_US218_.jpg


Pour over coffee produces much much better coffee than Keurig .... and for a lot cheaper. Keurig coffee makers do a lousy job of making coffee - from overpriced coffee in k-cups (which are horribly wasteful and generate so much trash)...to brewing the coffee at too low a temperature. Coffee should be brewed at 200-205degF. Anything cooler, and it will taste like dirty water and will be bitter. The new Keurig coffee makers still fall well short of ideal temps.

You could use a french press, which I prefer over pour-over/drip...but cleanup is not as quite as a filter in a pour-over.


For water...heat it using a kettle on the stove or get an electric kettle/water boiler. Best brand is by far is Bonavita. It uses a relay to turn the coils on/off. Very quick & accurate too.

51p5Rnb1U4L._AC_UL170_SR204,170_.jpg
 

wyliesdiesels

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Just a thought, but you could put a low cost UPS on the Keurig to act as a buffer when has large current draws.

As pointed out above, a UPS wont do anything to better this issue.

A UPS doesnt act as a buffer (provide extra current when needed), it acts as a backup power source.

And The UPS wont even provide backup power to the keurig unless the power on the outlet goes out.

Furthermore, the UPS would have to be very large(at least 2KW) to support that kind of load even for just a few seconds....

And a UPS isnt gonna filter out the noise that is being injected into the circuit by the appliance....
 
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aunsafe2015

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Inexpensive UPS will do nothing. Online ups -> big $$ and power hog.

The easy solution...
51UsxA6CVHL._AC_US218_.jpg


Pour over coffee produces much much better coffee than Keurig .... and for a lot cheaper. Keurig coffee makers do a lousy job of making coffee - from overpriced coffee in k-cups (which are horribly wasteful and generate so much trash)...to brewing the coffee at too low a temperature. Coffee should be brewed at 200-205degF. Anything cooler, and it will taste like dirty water and will be bitter. The new Keurig coffee makers still fall well short of ideal temps.

You could use a french press, which I prefer over pour-over/drip...but cleanup is not as quite as a filter in a pour-over.


For water...heat it using a kettle on the stove or get an electric kettle/water boiler. Best brand is by far is Bonavita. It uses a relay to turn the coils on/off. Very quick & accurate too.

51p5Rnb1U4L._AC_UL170_SR204,170_.jpg



Good advice if you want good coffee. Takes a few more minutes, but the difference in quality is well worth it. Be sure to get a decent grinder, and grind your own beans!
 

grantw

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...For water...heat it using a kettle on the stove or get an electric kettle/water boiler. Best brand is by far is Bonavita. It uses a relay to turn the coils on/off. Very quick & accurate too.

51p5Rnb1U4L._AC_UL170_SR204,170_.jpg

+1 on the bonavita. I have this model and it was worth every penny.
 
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