Interesting Propane questions.

[Pruittx2]

So today, I contacted my current provider. I have a metered service, where they just keep my tank full and I pay for what I use in my house. Their 500 gallon tank sit's 15ft behind my polebarn out of sight. But run's 90 feet up to the back of my house where the meter is, So taping in there to use on my yet to install Big Maxx 80 is out of the question.

They said, I could have them tap off that tank and just put a second meter in on my barn, but that meter fee would be $400 plus permit of $60 Plus fuel purchased <--- Um No thanks.

Or I could have them set another 300lb tank next to old one, and they would plumb it to my stubbed in barn piping. No meter on that one, and they would "On Call" fill that one for me at my request. Cost $60 for permit, and 1 dollar lease fee, plus cost of filling tank. <---- Ok seems better.

When I asked them about a stand up fatty tank, I believe they are 120 gallon. This is what they said.

"That tank would be too small for an 80K btu furnace. It would draw too fast, causing it to use an excessive about of fuel. As the burn off rate would not allow the tank to vaporize the fuel quick enough, for proper draw rate.
So I said,, "you mean, like it would draw more of a rich liquid vapor, and basically be like a car running rich, and using more fuel than needed?"
She said, yes. We would recommend the 300 gallon tank for that application.

Now weather I get the stand up 120 gallon or the 300 gallon, is basically the same cost. BUT I see a lot of folks on here, running 1 or 2 100lb tanks, that only hold like 40 gallons ea.
So I'm kinda at a loss for what I was told, and wonder why I shouldn't just buy a few 100lb tanks locally, I have found 4 or 5 for around 60-75 ea. Tie them together with a switchable and be done with it.
The local place to till tanks is 3 miles away, and is reasonable with the price.

Can I NOT lay these down to transport before or after they are filled???

I've really enjoyed looking at everyones install, and gained a ton of knowledge just seeing how they've done things, to fill in the questions of what my install journey will be. I look forward to hearing from you guys, and helping out when I can in the future.

 

[Buckgnarly]

I had a 120 gallon running my 80k tube heater last year, no problem. I added a second this Summer so I did not have to have as many deliveries in the Winter. I should have gotten them to put in a 300 gallon so I really would not have to worry about it.

I WOULD NOT want to be unhooking and filling tanks in the Winter, especially for an 80k heater.

Can you prebuy at a fixed price in the Summer?...if not, get the 300 gallon and fill it when prices are cheap.

 

[couch67]

I've never heard about a metered propane service - seems overly complicated?

Is it possible to get them to remove the meter, plumb the new line into your existing tank, and pay for the propane at fill time?

 

[mx500]

Im just a little north of grand rapids and use crystal flash. $1.89 gal is what the rate is i think, and they will lock you in for 6 months. they would not install anything smaller than a 330 gal tank for my barn. (its free, you just pay a little more) they will also do a half tank fill. I do not have a meter, i just check gauge in july, january.

 

[Pruittx2]

Tri County homeworks in Portland is who I have. The metered service is nice as I only pay for what I use monthly and they keep it full. $1.69 is my going rate now.

I must add it's a 28x48 uninsulated pole barn. I don't plan on keeping it at a constant temp, and only will be a weekend warrior, when I have something to fix. or project. maybe 6-8 hrs sat or sun or both. I've read some using a pair of 40lb tanks, and I'm sure they are filling often. Ferrellgas in Ionia is at $1.99 per and would set a 120gal for me. $99fee plus fuel, and permit. with a requirement that I at least get it topped of once a year, or they have a low use fee.
I seen a 120 gal on FB marketplace for $150 but it sold super fast.

 

[Jackfre]

Timely! During the 50th moving everything around in the shop today, I found my Container Vaporization Calculator. I'll give you the BTU/hr output in thousands for the 100, 300 and 420 respectively in 10* increments. 40* 61.5,119,143; 30* 52.4,101.3, 122; 20* 43.3, 83.7, 100.7; 10*34.2, 66.1, 79.5; 0* 25, 48.5, 58.3; -10* 16, 31, 37.1; -20* move to AZ.

There are diversity factors but what happens when you overdraw a tank is you freeze up the regulator and that is a no-heat pitn. Looks to me like I follow the LP Cos suggestions. The other question is, why do you have an 80K heater?

 

[Zexx]

Can they move the meter to the tank?

 

[mcbane]

After the introductory 6 month deal is there any ceiling on price? I had a similar deal and after the introductory deal the price was over $4 per gallon and the contract prohibited having any other supplier fill the tank.

Now I own my own tanks and pay the August price each year, which I believe was $1.59 this year.

 

[Bretny]

Personaly i would buy a pair of 100lb tanks. I would be willing to bet they will kill you on the tank rental fee if they plop a tank in your yard for only generator service.

 

[joe_padavano]

I guess I don't understand the "metered propane" construct. Our propane service simply fills the tank periodically and we get charged for the actual amount they put in the tank every time they come out. The truck has a meter on it. There's a gauge on the tank, but that's really just a fuel level gauge.

 

[CJseven]

I think the monthly metered setup helps home owners spread the cost out over time instead of a big bill with each fill, and also lets the propane company schedule deliveries better so there not running back and forth all over the county filling empty to near empty tanks when people call needing fuel.

 

[Pruittx2]

Timely! During the 50th moving everything around in the shop today, I found my Container Vaporization Calculator. I'll give you the BTU/hr output in thousands for the 100, 300 and 420 respectively in 10* increments. 40* 61.5,119,143; 30* 52.4,101.3, 122; 20* 43.3, 83.7, 100.7; 10*34.2, 66.1, 79.5; 0* 25, 48.5, 58.3; -10* 16, 31, 37.1; -20* move to AZ.

There are diversity factors but what happens when you overdraw a tank is you freeze up the regulator and that is a no-heat pitn. Looks to me like I follow the LP Cos suggestions. The other question is, why do you have an 80K heater?

I guess I'm not sure I'm following your first paragraph. In my area I may see zero F a few days out of the year, but snow from Mid Nov till late March. Being and hr or so from Big ol Lake Michigan, that tends to regulate my temps, compared to same locations in states west of me.

I plan on using a curtain to contain half of the 48 portion of the 28x48 size, most of the time. I will also be a casual user maybe 4-6 hr's in the garage on weekends. To work on my Ingersoll tractors, ect. So I don't believe my usage will cause a major freeze out with excessive draw. 80k would be a Big Maxx 80000 unit. Same heater is shown in threads, using a 100lb tank with no issues. (well that they are posting about anyway)

Heater should be here tomorrow,, and I'll get to tinkering, doing the propane conversion, and get other things in order for the install.

I spoke with another provider today, they will bring me a 125 Gallon stand up unit, place it up against my barn, do the gas line test, hook up, to my stubbed in pipe and first fire up. No permit fee, $99 install and fill with $1.89 approx 90 gallons. And fill as needed, on an on call basis. This company charges going market prices in our area all year. No rental fee, unless I don't have at least 1 fill per year.

My current company is a Co-Op. Our price is $1.69 per my last bill.

I found this:
A burner or appliance rated at 60,000 BTU/hr (with burner turned on to "High") will burn 60,000 BTU every hour which means consumption of fuel is one gallon of propane every 1.53 hours. (92,000 BTU/Hr / 60,000 BTU/Hr = 1.53 hours that one gallon would last Providing the burner remains on "high" you can determine the number of hours your propane supply with last. To adjust for appliances, like a furnace, that are controlled by a thermostat and only cycle "ON" maybe a few minutes per hour, you would then need to adjust your calculations. For example if the furnace cycled on for 15 minutes every hour in the winter you would adjust by a factor of 4. (92,000 BTU/Hr / 60,000 BTU/Hr = 1.53 hours that one gallon would last x 4 = 6.12 hours of furnace use for each gallon in inventory)

So based on that math,, then an 80000 unit would burn approx 1.15hr per gallon of fuel. I would bet with initial warm up time, then a few cycles per hr, would use about 3-4 gallon in a day in the shop. let's say 4 gal per day, used on weekends only would be a long time! All guestimates at this point.

 

[Jackfre]

Propane capacity given a certain cylinder size will diminish as the temp drops. Conversely the vaporization rate will increase as temp rise. At 30* outside temp a 100 gallon tank will provide 52,400 btuh. A 300 gallon tank 101,300 btuh and a 420 tank 122,000 btuh. This is from the Marshallexcelsior.com calculator.

 

[Adk Mike]

Have them put a tee black under the hood of the original tank and a 2d regulator off to the 2d location. Done.
Done it 100’s of times.
They are making up foolishness.
My way you have two gas systems. One tank.

 

[Pruittx2]

Have them put a tee black under the hood of the original tank and a 2d regulator off to the 2d location. Done.
Done it 100’s of times.
They are making up foolishness.
My way you have two gas systems. One tank.

Can't do that,, as I have a meter at the house, and only pay for what I use.

Your way would have me stealing gas.

 

[Pruittx2]

Propane capacity given a certain cylinder size will diminish as the temp drops. Conversely the vaporization rate will increase as temp rise. At 30* outside temp a 100 gallon tank will provide 52,400 btuh. A 300 gallon tank 101,300 btuh and a 420 tank 122,000 btuh. This is from the Marshallexcelsior.com calculator.

Ok Now I'm pickin up what your laying down.

Still don't see how some are using a 100lb tank that holds 23ish gallons, and not having issues.

Sounds like I'm gonna have to just get another big *** pig put back there.

 

[Jackfre]

You know how it goes. You can try the smaller tanks, but in real cold and you go out there and run that thing hard, that is when you might have issues. Every system has a personality

 

[mikester]

After the introductory 6 month deal is there any ceiling on price? I had a similar deal and after the introductory deal the price was over $4 per gallon and the contract prohibited having any other supplier fill the tank.

Now I own my own tanks and pay the August price each year, which I believe was $1.59 this year.

Pretty funny. I was paying $4.89 up until April. I just got a delivery on Friday morning. They topped my tank. 27.5 gallons. The new price from the company Ive been buying from for at least 15 years ? $6.69 a gallon. Needless to say theyre getting the tank back as soon as I can get another company. I told them Im shutting the heat down and getting rid of the propane totally since its too expensive. Ive already lined up another company. $2.69 a gallon for heat.

 

[brewchief]

Propane capacity given a certain cylinder size will diminish as the temp drops. Conversely the vaporization rate will increase as temp rise. At 30* outside temp a 100 gallon tank will provide 52,400 btuh. A 300 gallon tank 101,300 btuh and a 420 tank 122,000 btuh. This is from the Marshallexcelsior.com calculator.

Where are getting this info? I found a vaporization rate calculator on Marshellexcelsior.com and it doesn't show the 120 gallon tanks but does show a 150, max withdraw on that is 107100 at -30.

 

[Bretny]

Propane capacity given a certain cylinder size will diminish as the temp drops. Conversely the vaporization rate will increase as temp rise. At 30* outside temp a 100 gallon tank will provide 52,400 btuh. A 300 gallon tank 101,300 btuh and a 420 tank 122,000 btuh. This is from the Marshallexcelsior.com calculator.

I think your tank size is off. 100gal i think you meen pounds.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I think we've beat all around the right-answer-bush on this one.

The right answer is go to unmetered service for the house and plumb into the existing tank. This will likely get you a cheaper rate on the propane for your home and the same rate for your outbuilding.

My logic is, there's no-way the propane company is giving you the same price on a service were they have to provide a meter AND send someone around to read it every month AND issue you a monthly bill AND process a monthly payment as they would for a bulk fill delivery option.

Switch to bulk fill. Eliminate the meter. Hook to your existing tank. Problem solved. Money saved.

Phil

 

[Pruittx2]

I'm with a co-op, they are the cheapest rate of any company around by at least $.20 and that's a yearly capped rate. I called to ask a few questions after reading your post.

Price is the same weather metered or not. They Do send someone out every month to read meter, except 4 months during summer. Prices are adjusted once per year. I did pay a metered service fee of $400 when I first signed up.

I do have an appointment Nov 26th with the engineer at my house to discuss my options,one of which I learned today to possibly replace my 500 with a 800 gallon tank, and running a line from my current meter to my pole barn. I do like the metered service, instead of the 500 bill surprise!

 

[jtsboss]

I just paid 1.47 gal seems like that's a good price compaired to some i'v seen so far on here.

 

[sz0k30]

I live in SE Michigan, have a 32 x 48 x 12 pole barn and like you am a casual user in the barn. It has spray foam insulated walls and an open ceiling. I have a Re-Verber-Ray XTS Series 100,000 BTU tube heater run on propane. I have an I think 60 gallon propane tank (approx. 3 ft tall & 2 ft dia) with on-call fill up. I also have a propane usage spreadsheet that you might find useful. Only I would need to email it to you. If you are interested email me at: [email protected]

 

[Pruittx2]

I have found this chart on a few different gas co sites.

Seems to me a 120 Gallon 4ft lil fatty tank would be fine for my usage. If it's below Zero outside,, I won't be going out there anyway!


Maximum Intermittent Withdrawal Rate (BTU/HR) Without Tank Frosting* if Lowest Outdoor Temperature (Average For 24 hours)
Temp 150 Gal. 250 Gal. 500 Gal. 1000 Gal.
40° F 214,900 288,100 478,800 852,800
30° F 187,900 251,800 418,600 745,600
20° F 161,800 216,800 360,400 641,900
10° F 148,000 198,400 329,700 587,200
0° F 134,700 180,600 300,100 534,500
-10° F 134,200 177,400 294,800 525,400
-20° F 108,800 145,800 242,300 431,600
-30° F 107,100 143,500 238,600 425,000

A number of assumptions were made in calculating the BTU figures listed in the table above:
The tank is one-half full.
Relative humidity is 70%.
The tank is under intermittent loading.
Although none of these conditions may apply, the Table above can serve as a rule-of-thumb in estimating what a particular tank size will provide under various temperatures. Under continuous loading the withdrawal rates in the Table should be multiplied by 0.25.

 

[TractorJeff]

Ok Now I'm pickin up what your laying down.

Still don't see how some are using a 100lb tank that holds 23ish gallons, and not having issues.

Sounds like I'm gonna have to just get another big *** pig put back there.

So you guys are saying that his 80k heater in post 12 is using 4 gallons a day that on a 100 pound tank holding 23 gallons he would get approximately 8 days of usage?
So based on that;
A 150 gallon would have approximately (4lbs x 150gal) 600 pounds of propane.
This means that it would theoretically last (600lbs / 4gal usage) 150 days?
Just trying to follow????

 

[tyme2par4]

Pretty funny. I was paying $4.89 up until April. I just got a delivery on Friday morning. They topped my tank. 27.5 gallons. The new price from the company Ive been buying from for at least 15 years ? $6.69 a gallon. Needless to say theyre getting the tank back as soon as I can get another company. I told them Im shutting the heat down and getting rid of the propane totally since its too expensive. Ive already lined up another company. $2.69 a gallon for heat.

I'm in the same boat. I only use about 2 gallons a month for cooking, but my current supplier charges $40/yr tank fee plus almost $5/gallon.
My oil supplier will waive the tank fee, and quoted me $2.69/gallon. The only problem is my current tank is too close to the garage door to be legal, so the oil supplier won't put a new tank there. Need to find a good spot for it.

 

[Pruittx2]

So you guys are saying that his 80k heater in post 12 is using 4 gallons a day that on a 100 pound tank holding 23 gallons he would get approximately 8 days of usage?
So based on that;
A 150 gallon would have approximately (4lbs x 150gal) 600 pounds of propane.
This means that it would theoretically last (600lbs / 4gal usage) 150 days?
Just trying to follow????

You're mixing up pounds and gallons. I know it's head turning

That 4 GALLONS a day, would be based on my usage. You won't get ALL of the gallons out of a tank either.
This is all approximate.

your last sentence swaps lbs for gallons. So using all of the 150 gallons
would only be 37.5 days. @ 4 gal per day.

 

[6768rogues]

I had a 100K BTU heater in western NY and it used two of the upright fat 120 gallon tanks. It worked fine, but in a cold windy month I could use all the tanks held in a month. I was paying through the nose for propane because the vendor supplied the tanks. I looked into buying a tank but natural gas was available and the price for the tank was about the same as the price for natural gas down my 400' driveway.
If I were in your situation and if it looks like natural gas will not be available anytime soon, I would bite the bullet and buy a 1000 gallon tank (or if possible, one that will hold a year of propane). When I priced one, it was about $3000 delivered and installed. I was paying a dollar or more per gallon extra for a loaner tank, and owning my own tank would let me call around to shop for the best price. If you buy annually, at the end of the summer the heating season has not started, storage facilities are full, and propane is usually available cheap. I think I could have paid for the tank with savings over time. Companies try to be competitive if they can fill your big tank and you pay cash/check, not credit card. I cut my fuel bill by 70% by going to natural gas, and when I am in FL for the winter I don't have to have someone plow the driveway so the propane truck can get in.
You could manifold a bunch of 100# tanks together, but you have to pipe them so you can remove any one tank while leaving the others in service, and you need a regulator. I would not bother, I would rather buy a big tank and get it over.

 

[Royalwapiti]

I feel fortunate. My 500 gallon tank was 60% full in August so I bought an additional 500 gallons, locked in price for $1.27, will be delivered as needed through April. Cash price was $1.17.

You are taking a beating by having it metered at the house, I own my propane the moment it enters the tank. It doesn't matter how much I use or when I use it, I own it.

Use your 500 gallon tank and get off the meter system. Tap into it so it feeds your house and garage. Better yet, buy a 1000 gallon tank and then you can buy propane from whoever you want. You are not locked into whoever owns your tanks. Fill it once in the summer when prices are cheapest and be done for the year.

You do not want to be messing with changing tanks in the winter, you go on vacation come back the tank is empty, no heat in garage and all your liquids are frozen, latex paint ruined, etc.

 

[Barn5]

Some propane/generator notes from others out there and some math (perhaps bad math) I did a while back:

14kW gen = 203,000 BTU @ Full Load
20kW gen = 340,000 BTU @ Full Load

Other source info: A 250 gallon tank sized 72” long and 30” diameter at 0°F, the maximum flow is 97,920 BTU/hour.

Another source info: "Generator X" website shows a 94” length and 30” diameter for a 250 gallon tank

My different tank size 250 gallon info:

A 250 gallon tank has only 150 gallons of usable fuel. Size = 7’5” Long x 30” Diameter.

89”x 30” x 45 (K @ 10% full) = 120,150 BTU (Calc’d for 0 degree Fahrenheit)
89”x 30” x 70 (K @ 30% full) = 186,900 BTU (Calc’d for 0 degree Fahrenheit)


89”x 30” x 45 x 2 (K @ 10% full) = 240,300 BTU (Calc’d for 20 degree Fahrenheit)
89”x 30” x 70 x 2 (K @ 30% full) = 373,800 BTU (Calc’d for 20 degree Fahrenheit)


89”x 30” x 45 x 1.75 (K @ 10% full) = 210,200 BTU (Calc’d for 15 degree Fahrenheit)
89”x 30” x 70 x 1.75 (K @ 30% full) = 327,000 BTU (Calc’d for 15 degree Fahrenheit)

*** This means a 14kW would be able to run full load at 20 degrees outside even with
the 250 gallon propane tank being only 10% full.

***. Fuel consumption rate:
2.3 gallons per hour with 135 gallons available (90% of 150 gallon number above)
Total Run Time @ 100% load = 58 hours

1.8 gallons per hour with 135 gallons available (90% of 150 gallon number above)
Total Run Time @ 50% load = 75 hours



89”x 30” x 90 (K @ 50% full) = 240,300 BTU (Calc’d for 0 degree Fahrenheit)
89”x 30” x 90 x 2 (K @ 50% full) = 480,600 BTU (Calc’d for 20 degree Fahrenheit)



A 325 gallon tank has only 195 gallons of usable fuel. At 0°F, the maximum flow is 214,200 BTU/hour. Size = 10’ Long x 30” Diameter

120”x 30” x 45 (K @ 10% full) = 162,000 BTU (Calc’d for 0 degree Fahrenheit)
120”x 30” x 45 x 2 (K @ 10% full) = 324,000 BTU (Calc’d for 20 degree Fahrenheit)

A 500 gallon tank has only 300 gallons of usable fuel. At 0°F, the maximum flow is 264,180 BTU/hour. Size = 10’ Long x 37” Diameter

120”x 37” x 45 (K @ 10% full) = 199,800 BTU (Calc’d for 0 degree Fahrenheit)
120”x 37” x 45 x 2 (K @ 10% full) = 399,600 BTU (Calc’d for 20 degree Fahrenheit)



LP consumption rate at full power would be something between 3.5 and 3.8 gallons per hour.

An 850 gallon tank would provide 405,900 BTU/hour at 0°F
A 1000 gallon tank would provide 472,320 BTU/hour at 0°F

You mentioned that your 20 Kw generator 340,000 BTU at full load.

A 500 gallon horizontal tank will only provide about 200,000 BTU under certain conditions (even less at lower temperatures).

The calculation is based on 0 degree F temperature, and the tank 10% full.

Hers's the calculation:
Tank diameter (inches) x length (inches) x K

K at 60% full = 100
K at 50% full = 90
K at 40% full = 80
K at 30% full = 70
K at 20% full = 60
K at 10% full = 45

500 gallon tank = 37" x 119" x 45 = 198,000 total BTU available when 10% full (792,000 BTU at 50% full)

@ temp +20ºF 2.00 factor

500 gallon tank = 37" x 119" x 45 = 198,000 total BTU x 2 for temp factor = 396,000 BTU available when 10% full (792,000 BTU at 50% full)

1000 gallon tank = 41" x 192" x 45= 354,000 total BTU available when 10% full (700,000 BTU at 50% full)

 

[mrobins297aaa]

just a thought but why not just bite the bullet and buy your own 500 gallon tank for about $1200 installed for your house and barn.

Then you can shop for your propane and get the best price.
I pre bought this year from Harmon oil 1000 gallons for $1.39 gallon

 

[Pruittx2]

Well I got the Propane engineer to come out today!!

I've got options. I CAN set a 125 gallon stand up unit, on a will call. OR
I Can have them split from the main tank and put second meter on my barn.
BOTH OPTIONS NO COST!!!

Now I just gotta put unit up there,, get it all ready, with gas line stubbed out 18-24 in off ground level, and give them a call. They will hand dig trench, set it all up, pressure test and hook up. Plus they'll do first fire up to make sure it's all on the up and up.

No permit fees required, no extra cost to install,, and still $1.69 per gallon for what I use.

I'm a happy camper!!! Now to get it up there, using drywall lift, and finish putting in the other 15 boards on the ceilings. Their end will take 2-3 weeks from when I call,, so I"ll be calling before I'm done

 

[CJseven]

Good NEWS!!! I’m sure you are a happy guy.

 

[TractorJeff]

So you guys are saying that his 80k heater in post 12 is using 4 gallons a day that on a 100 pound tank holding 23 gallons he would get approximately 8 days of usage?
So based on that;
A 150 gallon would have approximately (4lbs x 150gal) 600 pounds of propane.
This means that it would theoretically last (600lbs / 4gal usage) 150 days?
Just trying to follow????

Thanks!
My calculations were based on 5:30am Math!
LOL!