hangfirew8
Well-known member
All new Sears vendor partnerships should be viewed as Eddie looking for buyers for the Sears brands like Craftsman, Kenmore, et al.
Interesting Sears Survey- WHAT?!?!
- Thread starter Loscaldazar
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TimDaToolMan
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I can tell from working at Kmart for a couple years, that SHC (Sears Holding, parent company of Sears and Kmart) is going down the *******.
The CEO and board are not looking at ANY core reasons behind the issue, they don't admit fault, and it's their absurdity that will ultimately fail them.
SHC has been doing "throw it on the wall and see what sticks" for quite a while now. In fact some sears stores were planning on or were actually going to sell high end items like Rolex watches.
They have completely forgetting the actual and original purposes of these stores, and thus they have no brand image at all.
SHC fucked up big time when they starting importing cman tools. Hell any store has import tools, people bought the Craftsman brand EXCLUSIVELY because it was US made, by US people, and backed by a forever warranty.
I tell people to not even BUY any new cman at stores, because 10 years from now I highly doubt the company will even be around, and then no one will be around for warranty purposes.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've heard, but in reality it does not surprise me. They are going to keep grabbing at toothpicks to try to pull them out of the water.
However its too late, their goose is already cooked and their running through and burning cash like **** through a tin horn.
The CEO and board are not looking at ANY core reasons behind the issue, they don't admit fault, and it's their absurdity that will ultimately fail them.
SHC has been doing "throw it on the wall and see what sticks" for quite a while now. In fact some sears stores were planning on or were actually going to sell high end items like Rolex watches.
They have completely forgetting the actual and original purposes of these stores, and thus they have no brand image at all.
SHC fucked up big time when they starting importing cman tools. Hell any store has import tools, people bought the Craftsman brand EXCLUSIVELY because it was US made, by US people, and backed by a forever warranty.
I tell people to not even BUY any new cman at stores, because 10 years from now I highly doubt the company will even be around, and then no one will be around for warranty purposes.
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've heard, but in reality it does not surprise me. They are going to keep grabbing at toothpicks to try to pull them out of the water.
However its too late, their goose is already cooked and their running through and burning cash like **** through a tin horn.
AceofSpad3s
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The reason they are going down the hole is because if I recall correctly, the ceo or whatever is a hedgefund manager that loan some money to sears and put all the retail locations as collateral, when the go down, he gets all the commercial properties. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I remembered hearing this a while back.
There are a lot of businesses that have tried to keep there core customers that have found out that there core customers have changed. A lot of people are now more interested in price than quality, they buy the cheapest product and don't care where it's made. As far as craftsman is concerned, there is the possibility that the offshore tools are as good as the U.S. made tools. I doubt it and I don't want them but I'm just saying.
TimDaToolMan
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The rabbit hole runs much deeper, he had little experience as a CEO before stepping up to SHC's home plate.
The issue with the guy is he's a stubborn ****, and ignores advice. Which can be good, Henry Ford didn't listen to anyone and made millions, but he is too stupid to not take advice from others.
Also, before I left a month ago, they phased out inventory in the store and told customers to buy it online.
He's trying to become like Amazon, except Amazon is good as it is, and their "amazon" is a **** attempt.
People buy online to buy online, people buy in stores because they want to try on, hold, feel the product, etc, and want it now.
They called it "integrated retail". I called it "intergradedtardation".
But beyond that, what floors me is that other sites, like best buy, allow other sellers to sell on their own website.
That makes ZERO sense, why cut your own throat?
softailgarage
Well-known member
Yep, thats exactly what I and every other dealer would do. F 'em
. I think everyone knows Sears is swirlin the drain, it's just a matter of time.Although, I am surprised they haven't put a few of their own trucks out there hitting construction sites.Parrothead
Well-known member
In a nutshell, you're right. ESL investments (run by Lampert) loaned Sears (run by Lampert) money with the retail stores as collateral. Either way Lampert wins. If Sears folds, he gets the property (he undervalued it by a large margin) and makes a very tidy profit, and if Sears can make it, his shares of stock go up. The people screwed are those that invested in Sears.
rickhigginshtbr
Well-known member
they threw in there a business idea i had a few years back... let people rent a bay and a lift for an hourly rate to work on their own cars. I'd love to do that, and in certain areas, it would work out great.
Coach James
Well-known member
Eddie L. is an easy target, but Sears was in serious trouble long before he came along. Sears was already showing signs of trouble back in the late 1970's with losses in market share to other retailers.
As to the changes listed in the OP's post, I'll believe it when I see it.
Coach
As to the changes listed in the OP's post, I'll believe it when I see it.
Coach
Sirnick
Active member
Yeah, I got the same survey the other day. It seems like Sears is grasping for straws. I was getting the impression that they want to try the Auto parts business again, like when they owned Western Auto. I don't think they have the reputation to compete in that. I did tell them to forget the silly idea of having people work on their vehicles in the parking lot or renting bay space. Could you imagine some flunky changing out his struts for the first time and killing the guy in the next bay when that spring gets away from him! Plus, not all but most of the people that fix their cars in a parking lot are slobs when it comes to keeping their work area clean. To much liability for that to ever exist with a large corporation.
As far as the tools go, I basically said for them to become the Made In The USA version of Harbor Freight tools if they want a fighting chance. Yes, I know not everything can be domestic but They could at least return the original Craftsman line back to a quality mid grade tool. Just make a cheap line for the junk collectors. As far as their pro/industrial lines, they need to drop it, who wants to pay a premium for tools that may be discontinued in a couple years like most of their pro line has!
All I know is I would have never started investing so much in Craftsman tools 15-20 years ago if I thought they were going to flush it down the drain!
As far as the tools go, I basically said for them to become the Made In The USA version of Harbor Freight tools if they want a fighting chance. Yes, I know not everything can be domestic but They could at least return the original Craftsman line back to a quality mid grade tool. Just make a cheap line for the junk collectors. As far as their pro/industrial lines, they need to drop it, who wants to pay a premium for tools that may be discontinued in a couple years like most of their pro line has!
All I know is I would have never started investing so much in Craftsman tools 15-20 years ago if I thought they were going to flush it down the drain!
I'll **** purple twinkies if this happened, in the mean time I will continue to produce normal yellow twinkies.
I highly doubt the truck brands would allow this as it would really PO the drivers.
It would be more logical for sears to bring in CM industrial/pro, and like others have stated, SK/Wright/Proto.
Also the liability is way too high to allow customers to use their equipment to work on cars, and on the property, lawsuit galore. This is why Auto stores do not allow you to work on cars in the parking lot anymore.
Still it would not bring me back as a customer, because they wont warranty my USA regular CM for a industrial version. So how long until they outsource Pro and Industrial?
I highly doubt the truck brands would allow this as it would really PO the drivers.
It would be more logical for sears to bring in CM industrial/pro, and like others have stated, SK/Wright/Proto.
Also the liability is way too high to allow customers to use their equipment to work on cars, and on the property, lawsuit galore. This is why Auto stores do not allow you to work on cars in the parking lot anymore.
Still it would not bring me back as a customer, because they wont warranty my USA regular CM for a industrial version. So how long until they outsource Pro and Industrial?
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Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Absolutely true. If Sears wasn't so big, it's mistakes could have killed it long before Eddie Lampert showed up.
LordPsychon
Well-known member
If they brought in Snap-on or Matco, I can't see how the heck that would work - their prices are ridiculously high for the average consumer (geared towards the professional mechanic) and very few people will be willing to shell out that kind of money. I could see Bluepoint Snappies being potentially sold - still pricey but not in the "sell me your firstborn" vein. SK or Wright could maybe make it; Proto's a little too specialized like Snap-on but Blackhawk Proto could fit that bill. I'd like to see more GW and Craftsman Industrial myself - the GW selections at my Sears are pretty limited.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
How are they going to have people qualified to assist with automotive repairs when they can't even retain people qualified to assist with a screwdriver purchase?
This sounds like a ********* out of some whiz-kid with an MBA in Desperation Marketing.
This sounds like a ********* out of some whiz-kid with an MBA in Desperation Marketing.
LordPsychon
Well-known member
Hmm, your Sears seems different from my Sears - the staff at my Sears actually knows what they're doing. I will grant you that this does seem like a pipe dream which if true would **** harder than a Dyson.
Super Sport
Well-known member
I received this survey the other day, and was also quite thrown off. Sears is going in the opposite direction of nearly everything they propose in the survey. For the life of me I can't figure out why they would ever send this out.
I would love to see this in practice, but I know the market for any of this is slim to none and it would fail miserably.
I would love to see this in practice, but I know the market for any of this is slim to none and it would fail miserably.
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
Probably never believe it, as what they're "proposing" can't - and hasn't before - worked. They're painting a picture of their current dissolution company as the oldy-timey general store image of SR&Co (complete with popcorn machine and wood floors).
Exactly. Their current business model is (as is mentioned above) exactly the opposite of the pretty pictuure painted above, e.g. If you have to buy stock get it as cheap as possible and damn the quality, Gut the store and sell it fast, cut your workforce deeply and pay them as little as possible, sell the buildings, take the money and run. As fast as possible.
Know what screamed "this is the end" to me? Seeing "Craftsman" sold in as many retail outlets as they could, combining their ops with K-Mart, and giving up on what made them awesome for decades. They sold themselves down the river, because greed overcame quality and customer service and loyalty.
This is one of those ideas on the surface sounds great and everybody's buddy says "hell yeah".
The problem is in the real world, this idea is wrought with high insurance costs and/or litigation issues when the first mouth breather idiot fails to put a car on a lift correctly and either damages the vehicle and/or injures themselves. Never mind the logistics of scheduling when people hog bays or has a vehicle dead on a lift and not in a rolling condition.
The only place I seen this idea work was in the military when every good size installation had an "auto craft shop" that service members could work on their own vehicles. The only reason it worked there is because you usually had to take a 20-40 hour safety class and the military is self insured if a member kills or injures themselves.
those are all very valid points. i've heard the same arguments when guys talk about starting their own "rental lift/repair shops" where for X amount of dollars you get access to a lift or air conpressor or whatever. just can never imagine how something like that could be viable in the long term.
Renchi
Well-known member
I was wondering if anyone else here got this stupid survey. My only conclusion after taking the time to complete it is that Sears has truly lost its way. 
LordPsychon
Well-known member
I care about Sears because I remember the glory days - the 1980s, the heyday and swan-song of American Craftsman tools. I still shop there on occasion and while the selection has gone the way of the dinosaur there are some deals to be had. Regarding the survey, as I said earlier I don't see how they could make it profitable - Joe Schmo isn't going to pay $200 for a Snap-on ratchet when he can find a Craftsman ratchet at $40 (he won't know that the Snappie can hold up to extreme abuse and that's part of the price tag).
tjpavlov
Well-known member
How would sears even sell expensive tools? They'd lose a lot to theft.
Has anyone sent the link to this thread to the originator of the Survey email? I'm guessing that there was a brainstorming session on the opinions of persons outside the Sears/Craftsman organization. This survey being the next step toward formulating a tentative plan on how to straighten out the issues plaguing the company's tools and hardware et al. (if possible at all, of course).
I was wondering if anyone else here got this stupid survey. My only conclusion after taking the time to complete it is that Sears has truly lost its way.
That's true. I was researching a tool, and a banner ad for Sears popped up at the bottom of the search engine. And on it, Sears had the same tool I was researching, BUT it was advertised at like 10x the normal street price. So just out of curiosity, I clicked the ad, and it took me to the Sears website and the overpriced tool was sold off the Sears website but fulfilled by a 3rd party.
I was like WTF? Sears, you are stumbling. Grasping at straws.
Then the other day I was looking at their website for lawn mowers, and their database is all screwed up. Under "self propelled" (or as Sears calls it self powered), only 2 mowers showed up as being self-propelled even though they actually carry about 15-20 self-propelled mowers. Their database is not set up correctly.
I really hate to bring this up but ya'll do realize that we here at GJ are such a small section of the shopping public that what we think really doesn't matter.
Personally I would love to see this, and who needs Snappy, Mac and Matco, I am more than happy with the industrial brands along with my old CM as far as the specialty tools just check out the truck tool eq thread, most if not all the specialty tools are made for the truck brands by another company who I am sure would be more than happy to sell to Sears either under their own brand or a rebranded name.
I really love one stop shopping, if I could walk into Sears and get the tools to do the job and the parts I would be all over it, and the guys behind the counter can't be any worse than the guys I have to deal with at the parts store who no nothing more than what the computer tells them. It took my 3 different stores to get the right U-joints for my truck 2 of the places just looked in the computer and both came up with the wrong ones finally pulled out the Moog book and we got it right.
Personally I would love to see this, and who needs Snappy, Mac and Matco, I am more than happy with the industrial brands along with my old CM as far as the specialty tools just check out the truck tool eq thread, most if not all the specialty tools are made for the truck brands by another company who I am sure would be more than happy to sell to Sears either under their own brand or a rebranded name.
I really love one stop shopping, if I could walk into Sears and get the tools to do the job and the parts I would be all over it, and the guys behind the counter can't be any worse than the guys I have to deal with at the parts store who no nothing more than what the computer tells them. It took my 3 different stores to get the right U-joints for my truck 2 of the places just looked in the computer and both came up with the wrong ones finally pulled out the Moog book and we got it right.
This must be an April Fools joke. Granted it's several weeks late, but it is Sears, so.... The company of gimmick tools and rapid off-shoring of traditionally US-made tools is contemplating going the extreme opposite direction? This doesn't make sense at all.
the part about people being able to use a bay in the auto center to work on their own car is where i got the "this is BS" vibe
even without the potential insurance nightmare you have the issue of tying up a bay while joe blow takes 3 hours to change an O2 sensor because he doesn't know what he is doing
even without the potential insurance nightmare you have the issue of tying up a bay while joe blow takes 3 hours to change an O2 sensor because he doesn't know what he is doing
cevans7
Member
Has anybody considered the possibility that the reason that Sears (and most other consumer-grade tool companies) have outsourced production is because some extremely qualified executives and some amazingly intelligent and well-educated consulting firms have come to the realization that the average American consumer prefers low prices over quality?
Sears is going under because they have lethargic management and haven't been able to adapt to a constantly changing domestic market as quickly as they needed to. It isn't because they started outsourcing their tools. In fact, had they started outsourcing their tools earlier, they could have actually produced better tools for a lower price, and retained more market share.
The reality is this: Until American consumers start to prioritize US-made and quality products (these are, believe it or not, distinct) over cost, and there is no reason to expect them to do so anytime soon, more and more tools will begin to be outsourced. Manufacturing in America started dying out decades ago, and this isn't actually a bad thing. Many of the manufacturing jobs America lost to foreign countries have been replaced by higher-paying jobs with more stability, better benefits, and more enduring possibilities of advancement. Especially for those with the willingness and ability to learn the necessary skills.
Sears is going under because they have lethargic management and haven't been able to adapt to a constantly changing domestic market as quickly as they needed to. It isn't because they started outsourcing their tools. In fact, had they started outsourcing their tools earlier, they could have actually produced better tools for a lower price, and retained more market share.
The reality is this: Until American consumers start to prioritize US-made and quality products (these are, believe it or not, distinct) over cost, and there is no reason to expect them to do so anytime soon, more and more tools will begin to be outsourced. Manufacturing in America started dying out decades ago, and this isn't actually a bad thing. Many of the manufacturing jobs America lost to foreign countries have been replaced by higher-paying jobs with more stability, better benefits, and more enduring possibilities of advancement. Especially for those with the willingness and ability to learn the necessary skills.
nicksnothereman
Well-known member
The high end stuff would probably just sit there besides they already have "high quality brands" just rebranded craftsman (sometimes). Well higher quality at least.
What they need to do is offer more variety in brands and do in store warranties for said tools where they apply. They won't though because it will cannibalize their stuff. I wouldn't mind having access to higher end and exotic stuff though...not that I go into sears that much anymore.
MilwaukeeFish
Well-known member
Barack? Is that you?
j/k
O.K. to stay on topic... Whomever at Sears put this together has been hitting the bong pretty hard. No way the tool truck brands are going to go for this. Their bread and butter are the routes. Having them in Sears will just piss off the drivers who made the heavy investments. The tools will just get dusty on the shelf until a paid wrench goes and gets something he needs on a day the driver doesn't show. Plus the merchandise will have a zillion looky-loos palming the stuff just to see what the fuss is all about. I dunno about anyone else, but if I'm going to spend tool truck money: I want something that hasn't been passed around and used as a demo. Which is how I view many high dollar items in a retail setting. For the rest of us (Like myself) who aren't wrenching for a paycheck: I dunno? I'd still rather get it off the websites or off a truck. Convenience be damned.
And can you imagine the ***** of a time trying to get a warranty on this stuff at Sears? Hell these cretins try and weasel out of their own legendary warranty so often anymore. Can you imagine the hassle of trying to get them to warranty a $150 ratchet or a $250 socket set? "Nope sorry you have to send it back to the manufacturer or find a truck." Which in turn as someone said earlier would lead to all the drivers dumping their warranty stuff on Sears and raising a fuss so they don't have to wait for corporate to fill orders.
Nah won't work.
Now if they re-brand items from the trucks....Meh. Again, if I'm going to pay tool-truck money it better have the truck name on it. Re-brand the item and have a fair drop in the price and maybe I might consider it. Re-badged tools are known here but GJ is a small part of the buying populace. There isn't a ruckus on the trucks that I'm aware of about this knowledge here. But if it goes to the scale of Sears Holding Corp re-badging truck stuff: as soon as word gets out that it's the same tool for less moolah, all of the drivers are going to revolt 'cause Sears will be eating their lunch.
Nope, that won't work either.
Sears having their own lines of truck tools exclusive to their retail operations: Meh.
I don't think any of the major players will go for it. Would you buy a cheaper made tool with a truck name on it? Many would but when that tool fails to live up to the reputation that the premium line has built for itself the rep becomes tarnished, and I seriously doubt that is a hit the major players are willing to take. Nope, still won't work.
Now if Sears brought in some re-badged industrial brands or sub-brands as a 'tool truck-like' quality line: say for instance having Snap-On bring in Williams under a different banner...that might work. Or SK or Proto or whatever. As long as it's extra shiny most people won't question it. That's probably the most workable scenario. But Sears probably won't go that way. If they did they could create a marketing back-story and have some trucks pimped out like a real tool truck to make their rounds to show off for the masses and really sell the concept. But knowing Sears they will find a way to screw that up too.
I dunno. I still think it's too little and too late for Sears.
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twertsy
Well-known member
MilwaukeeFish
Well-known member
Fixed that for ya...........
Lol. The part I quoted just struck me as something a politico might say while on the stump.
mmack66
Well-known member
Companies move production to, or buy goods from, overseas, because they want to maximize their profits. That's it.
Don't put that on me. As a consumer, I want quality goods at reasonable prices. There's no reason that those goods can't be manufactured in the US, but it is hard for companies to resist the lure of endless supplies of extremely inexpensive labor, no overhead, and no regulations.
cevans7
Member
Yeah, companies maximize profit. That is what they are supposed to do. I wasn't saying that you specifically wanted cheap import tools. But the fact remains that the average American consumer prefers considerations of price over considerations of quality or country of origin, so companies (like Sears) that target the average American consumer do exactly what they should do which is outsource their tool production and drop price and quality to meet the price points that their customers want.
And yes, there can be a reason that quality good can't be manufactured at reasonable prices in the United States. Quality products require quality tooling (expensive), quality workers (expensive) and if you want those made in the United States, American wages are significantly higher than in other countries. It might just be true in some cases that you can't have the quality you want at a price you consider reasonable while keeping production in the United States, and the reason is simple: American labor is expensive.
Put another way: Snap-On could make better tools for cheaper if they outsourced their production. The only reason they haven't done this is because their customers are willing to pay an extraordinary premium for USA-made tools.
And yes, there can be a reason that quality good can't be manufactured at reasonable prices in the United States. Quality products require quality tooling (expensive), quality workers (expensive) and if you want those made in the United States, American wages are significantly higher than in other countries. It might just be true in some cases that you can't have the quality you want at a price you consider reasonable while keeping production in the United States, and the reason is simple: American labor is expensive.
Put another way: Snap-On could make better tools for cheaper if they outsourced their production. The only reason they haven't done this is because their customers are willing to pay an extraordinary premium for USA-made tools.
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kiatech
Well-known member
I seen a sears coming soon sign in SC right before I moved.
cevans7
Member
But to get back on topic: As everybody else has said, it would be awesome if Sears did this, but they won't. Probably because it wouldn't be good business to do it. GJ type consumers are almost certainly the minority among the customers Sears has or wants (but I don't have in depth knowledge of the marketing environment for tools, so I won't say this definitively), so introducing a line of expensive, high quality tools with any worthwhile exception is probably far too expensive.
That being said, it would so awesome if I didn't have to order Snap-On tools from the internet anymore.
That being said, it would so awesome if I didn't have to order Snap-On tools from the internet anymore.
That is a decent statement but there is one equation left out of the price vs. quality argument and that is "value".
Value is the "perception" of what something brings to the user and is the balance between cost paid and what the item can deliver to the expected end user.
Walk into any Home Depot and go to where the pliers are at. Look at the import Milwaukee and Dewalt pliers and then the comparable Channellock selection. In most case, the comparable Channellock is cheaper in price than the import Milwaukee and Dewalt import made pliers. Given that the Channellock's are cheaper in price, one would think they would fly off the rack but the fact is the Milwaukee and Dewalt pliers sell faster for more because of the marketing that give the end user a brand association of "value" over the USA made Channellocks.
So even given a cheaper price USA made alternative, cheaper price does not always win out.