Irwin Tap & Die Differences

[cloves]

I have been researching for a decent tap and die set and have narrowed it down to irwin or gearwrench. But I am starting to lean towards Irwin because its made in the US. However, Irwin has 3 sets of large tap and die sets and the info on their site doesn't really clarify what the difference is. I thought it might be the metal used but that isn't the case. Found this in an amazon review which clarifies it all.

Irwin sets are part numbers 26377, 1813817, and 1841432

Differences explained below.

https://www.amazon.com/ask/questions/Tx3L8MAMQJG1AUB
"This is an old question, but I just came across it and thought I'd chime in, because I researched this for a while myself. In addition to the difference in part count, the 1813817 is part of the "Irwin Performance Threading Systems" series, whereas the 26377 set is a traditional tap set.

In the case of these two sets, the difference is in the style of tap handle provided - the PTS tap handles use a "locking wheel" instead of a set-screw to hold the taps in place. Note that the PTS family can also include special "self-aligning" taps that have a small non-cutting section at the end - this forces proper alignment but prevents tapping quite as deep into a closed-end hole - even morseo than with conventional taper taps.

Both the 26377 and 1813817 come with conventional plug taps, but the 1841432 is identical to the 1813817 but comes with the self-aligning PTS taps. Irwin has a nice PDF datasheet that explains the differences and includes the full list of parts for each set. There's also a good review on Cycle World under "Irwin Tools Performance Threading System Product Review" that discusses the PTS."

 

[Professional Tool User]

Don't buy the Irwin ones. Irwin is one of those brands whose products are usually poorly made regardless of COO. I have a rebranded Irwin set (Blue Point) and the taps are extremely brittle. I'd rather take my chance with the Gearwrench set if I were to buy it all over again.

 

[vssjim]

the Piloted taps need to be used on deep holes or open holes as the pilot is long and will bottom out real quick.

 

[Bannik254]

Don't buy sets, buy the ones you know you'll be using.

mcmaster com / standard-taps

And my experience, you won't be using dies very often, mainly just on old studs that aren't worth trying to replace. Bolts and fasteners you would just replace with new ones.

Irwin, Gearwrench, etc. are almost always High Carbon taps, which are OK, but if you plan on tapping cast iron, stainless steel, or even softer metals, High Carbon will dull a lot faster than say HSS or Cobalt taps. Carbide isn't worth the investment unless using CNC production line related jobs.

 

[GrundleJuice]

Re: Irwin Tap & Die Differences

Irwin vs gearwrench? Why even bother unless you have only one or two holes to tap. Get a proper cobalt tap in the size your need and get the job done. When you need another, get a quality tap again. Eventually you will have most or all of the sizes you will ever need. The last few through hole taps I've gotten from McMaster have been very good quality. I just did 28 holes of 3/8-16 through 1" steel welding table and the tap looks and the edges feel like new.

 

[californiaHank]

There are three basic shapes of tap that are commonly used when hand tapping. Taper taps, plug taps, and bottoming taps. They mainly differ in the amount the leading end is tapered. When drilling a blind hole, I usually use all three types - a taper tap is easiest to use at the start - it has the most taper which makes it easier to align accurately. After you start with the taper tap, you switch to the plug tap, which has less taper. If you're tapping a blind hole (one that doesn't go all the way through the part) you then switch to a bottoming tap, which has a quite blunt end and allows you to cut threads nearly to the bottom of the hole, and finishes the job.

Most kits, like the Irwins you mentioned in your first post, have plug taps only. That's OK if you're careful, and mainly tap through-holes. But, if you tap a lot of blind holes, it's worth buying your taps in indivdual sets of three taps of the same size. You can buy 'complete' sets that include three taps in each size, but that gets real expensive.

Irwin makes two types of plug taps - standard ones, and ones that are a bit more tapered than standard ones - a bit closer to a taper tap. That's the difference between some of the sets listed in the original post. I only own the standard ones, and don't know if the others are any better. If I'm tapping something critical or difficult, I usually start with a taper tap rather than a plug. But, for routine stuff, you can do the job with just a plug tap if you're reasonably careful.

The Irwin taps are decent. They're standard line is high carbon steel, although they also make high speed steel ones . For hand tapping, it doesn't make a lot of difference. HSS is less brittle than HC steel, amd HSS taps stay sharp longer. That makes a big difference if you're doing machine tapping, but not if you're tapping small numbers of holes by hand. The hardness of a tap is mainly determined by how well it has been heat treated, not whether or not it's HSS. The other main difference between bad taps and good ones is the quality with which they've been ground or machined - Irwin taps aren't the best or most expensive, but they're well made and good value. I've used their standard carbon steel taps on lots of stainless steel parts as well as aluminum and mild steel without any issues.

It's OK to buy a small basic set of plug taps, but I don't think it's worth buying a huge set containg lots of sizes you may never use. I'm like the last poster and find I don't use dies a lot and so don't own a lot of them. I don't own a large set of taps - I usually buy individual sizes in sets of three, and then replace the taps one at a time as they wear. My plug taps get used the most, so they get replaced most often.

 

[cloves]

Well glad I posted this, its given me a lot more to think about. Thanks for all who chimed in.

I will be mainly using the taps by hand for car projects. Stripped bolts seem to be a common occurrence. Even recently stripped a bolt using a torque wrench on a differential cover. I have to also tap a new hole into a cast iron magnum engine because the coolant pipe bolt wouldn't come out.

The reason I wanted to pick up a set rather then one at time is really time. Usually I am working on the cars over the weekend and who carries decent quality taps locally late in the day. Only place I can think of is Napa (Only on sat till 2pm) because advance and all the other autoparts stores carry junk I can get at harbor freight.

So are carbon steel taps not a good choice when working on engines (cast iron and/or aluminum)? I thought both these metals were considered soft and carbon steel was ok?

@californiaHank thanks for sharing all that info. If I do go with the Irwin taps I will just go a plug tap (smaller set), since they seem more universal in nature.

I own a craftsman thread cleaning set so the dies wouldn't really get a lot of usage.

 

[matt_i]

The sad part is that the cheap taps with their low budget metallurgy are uber brittle in my experience to get enough hardness in the steel so it can hold an edge.

So you break **a lot** of them.

As compared to the advice above to buy taps from McM, etc. The HSS material in a quality tap is much tougher and much harder at the same time...the money goes into the metallurgy.

Dealing with broken taps isn't my idea of fun so I am drawn to the taps which are the toughest. See also: spiral point/gun/machine taps which are generally 2-3 flutes and have a lot more meat in the center of the cross-section.

I can think of about 5-6 basic taps on each side of the measurement system I'd want, one can always add down the road.

For your male threads, a triangular needle-file is a very useful tool which can be used on all systems to remove damaged crests and get fasteners running again. McM 4261A54 is what I had in mind.

 

[CJM8515]

IDK for what its worth I have the HF cheapo and nicer tap sets. If your intended use is creating more threads on a bolt that is only partial threaded, chasing holes that might have gotten damaged a bit, making threads in newer holes in plain steel, creating threads where you had to drill out a hole and go to the next size-it works just fine. Same can be said of the Irwin and there rebrands really Id think.



Now if you were in a production machine shop-of course the taps I mention above are worthless to you. But how many of you are building items which would require such taps? and if you were, just buy a nicer tap to begin with for that project

 

[sk farmer]

you have gotten a lot of good advice and i can't argue much with it.

that said, i think they are wrong on some levels. they all told you to buy better taps and dies in the size you need.

great! what size or sizes are they ? that is the problem, you don't know til you need them. i have never been sorry having a tap and die set. you get a variety of sizes. you get a way to store them that makes them easier to keep organised and know when one is missing. you also get the other parts you may not have like tap and die handles and thread checkers.

nobody tells you to go out and only buy one ratchet, one socket, one extension and one wrench in the size you need because you have to have the best ones made. you start with a set, even if it is a small one and add to it as you find out your needs. maybe a longer wrench, a deep socket or flex head ratchet. whatever it may be. good solid advice with wrenches and sockets but for some reason people give the opposite advice for taps and dies and it makes no sense.

 

[bobcatdan]

I have no experience with the self aligning ones. I have only used the normal ones, granted my main set says snap on on them. Irwin are perfectly good general purpose tap and die to have around. Personally I like having the full set for the times I run into odd threads. For sizes I use a lot, there it is nice to pick those up in H.S.S, maybe in the three pieces set with starter, plug and bottoming. As for Irwin being brittle, they are no where close to as brittle as the USA made Craftsman set I have. That set is better than nothing barely useable. As for the Irwin which are only carbon steel, I find if take your time and let the tap do the work, you won't break them. There is a feel to using them and once you get it, they hold up fine. The dies I find cut well, no worse the the Cle-Line H.S.S works provides. Compared to the craftsman set, those dies you will work a sweat up using. So for a mechanic or a guy in his garage, the Irwin are fine. A guy making a living with threading holes, he should jump straight to something better.

 

[cloves]

Thanks all very valid points. I might just pick up a small set in case I run into breaks. Running to the store causes a ton of delay for weekend car work. Once taps break I will replace with single HSS taps.

@akalian last night I was also reading into tap guides, found some gators but they are sized to whatever tap you're using. The one you listed is interesting as it can be used with different sizes.

 

[vssjim]

If you want a starter set I would also look at the Astro set as they are sized for automotive popular sizes and the material is better than the Irwin basic taps

 

[jayemm]

FWIW ,for my occasional use I've had good success with a 60 piece standard& metric carbon steel set from Alfatools.I'd put them about the same as US made Irwin.They're made in Japan by SKC Tap&Die and I couldn't beat the price at just over $100 at the local hardware store.It's the same as the Century Drill brand 60 piece set.SKC makes them for Century and single taps were also sold by O'reilly auto parts stores in the blue package.
I like the fact that they have some flex to them so they give a little when sudden resistance is encountered instead of snapping.Of course you need to exercise the usual care and "feel" when tapping.Another thing I noticed is the 2nd and subsequent holes cut a little easier and the teeth feel a little sharper as if microscopic burrs have been polished away.I had a few Fastenal brand HSS polished spiral point taps that cut like butter but that was job related and I wasn't even going to price a set of those for personal use.

 

[Bannik254]

If you are deadset on getting a small tap set, look up the sizes that are coming in that set, and just buy each of those taps individually in HSS or Cobalt. You may end up spending a bit more money, but if you are trying to save time, you'll spend a whole hell of a lot more time trying to remove a broken tap that is snapped off inside your hole.

Snap-on, Matco, etc sets are all Irwin/Hanson rebranded sets, they are the same exact product.

Get WD-40 for aluminum and brass tapping, and sulfur-based dark cutting fluid for everything else. Aluminum and copper-based materials get stained by dark cutting fluid. If you don't care about staining, then skip the WD-40.

Cast Iron and Iron Ductile can be difficult to tap since the degree of hardness isn't uniform across the material, different parts will be harder than other parts, creating uneven stress on the tap. I would never tap Cast Iron with High Carbon tooling, too risky.

Aluminum and Brass, being softer metals, opposite of what you may think, actually require higher quality taps for use over time. Softer metals will dull your tooling a lot faster than harder materials. A dull tap will tap into softer metal, but instead of cutting it will push the metal instead of digging into it. It deforms, instead of cuts? I don't know how else to explain it. Malleable material can be deceiving.

 

[sk farmer]

funny but everyone tells you to buy good taps yet you are getting little advise.

tap straight.

tap with the appropriate fluid.

use the correct size hole for the tap.

tap slow in unknown materials. backing up often to break the chips, maybe completely backing the tap out a few times.

yes i know you can break taps when using them on the wrong material. the simple fact is that most if not all of the taps i have broken have been from my own misuse. usually by being in a hurry and not careful.

 

[xman_charl]

bought this Irwin set about 15 years ago


has served me well through the years

Charl

 

[My Old Tools]

I bought a full Irwin set a few years ago, metric and SAE, fine and coarse. It has been handy more times than I can count. When you live 30 minutes or more from town, and you may not find a tap there, it helps to have them all. Of course I work on a lot of older and random stuff, not just cars. Shop it hard and you can find a pretty complete Irwin set for around $100 or a bit more. Then upgrade as you need to. Beats waiting a few days for the Amazon delivery.

 

[Skin]

Thanks all very valid points. I might just pick up a small set in case I run into breaks. Running to the store causes a ton of delay for weekend car work. Once taps break I will replace with single HSS taps.

@akalian last night I was also reading into tap guides, found some gators but they are sized to whatever tap you're using. The one you listed is interesting as it can be used with different sizes.

If you like to tinker and repair a lot ignore the advice telling you to buy peace meal. Get the biggest set you can afford. Taps and dies is a "better to have it and not need it" tool. Needing threads on something like a vehicle is not something you want to wait around for. If you manage to wear out any sizes you then replace those with a better brand. The Hanson sets are perfectly adequate for light duty and soft metals and since the dies are hex shaped you can run them with a socket. I like and have used my sets quite often and I say this as someone who has had the cheap (junk) china sets all the way to expensive coated HSS where single pieces cost $50-$100 or more.

 

[Benito]

Snap-on, Matco, etc sets are all Irwin/Hanson rebranded sets, they are the same exact product.

Since Mac/Stanley bought Irwin, Matco's are no longer Irwin and come with a tap ratchet. Looks different than Gearwrench

 

[jayemm]

The above advice from Skin is right on about getting a set as you never know when you'll need a certain size.If you work on cars the aluminum is used alot of places and it's on the soft side.I knackered the lead -in threads on an aluminum intake manifold while changing an egr valve on a Ford Taurus.Luckily it was midday and the hardware store nearby had the metric tap needed.Another time managed to pull the threads in aluminum alternator housing while tightening mounting bolt.It didn't take much overtorque to do it either.Had to retap to next larger size (metric of course).Didn't want to get another alternator.Point being is that you don't know when things are going to screw up and having a set can save your *** and let you finish the job.Nothing worse than being dead in the water especially if it's the only car in the household and you can't go any further and need the car for work in the morning.How much ******** are you going to put up with having only a few sizes, as if you would know what they were ahead of time.
Even the $40 60 piece sae/metric carbon steel set from Harbor Freight is worth having in a pinch until you get a better set.It'll do aluminum and mild steel.Not the cheaper smaller set.Just my opinion based on experience.