is 14/3 sufficient?

[nosnerd]

purchasing electrical components this week....

should i just bite the bullet and go 12/3? this would be for ceiling lights (neon tubes)

Q2: are 15 amp wall sockets sufficient?i plan on one per 4 ft...

Q3: i was told 52 inches from floor....is this a common spec?

thanks


alan

 

[Stuart in MN]

You're in Canada and the rules there aren't necessarily the same as in the US, so watch for responses from fellow countrymen.

I assume you mean fluorescent tubes and not neon.

 

[nosnerd]

correct....i still call them neons...oops my bad.....lol

 

[theoldwizard1]

1. 14/2 (they don't count the ground wire), unless you are planning on using 3 way switches is fine for ceiling lights, regardless if they are incandescent of fluorescent.
2. Depends on what you plan on running ! 98% of the time a 15A breaker, 14/2 and 15A receptacle are sufficient. However seeing as it is a garage and you might get some heavier equipment in there I would wire at least some, if not all, of the receptacle with a 20A breaker, 12/2 wire and real 20A receptacles.
3. In the US, I believe the standard is 48" off the floor.

Also a US standard, all receptacles must be protected by a GFCI. Only exception is for a refrigerator/freezer and that receptacle needs to be marked.

 

[jerseywild]

I am working on my garage wiring now, I am placing the outlets 42" to the mounting bracket. I am doing this so in the future I can put a workbench on any wall and the outlets will be clear.

I am using 12/2 wire with 20 amp outlets.

 

[larry_g]

14 is good but it has to be protected with a 15a breaker. Remember the breaker is to protect the WIRE down stream. I would not run 15A outlets, to many motors with higher amp requirements.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Jackson]

Don't waste your time / money with anything more than 14/2 and 15 amp breakers. If you are going to do a compressor / welder / whatever then go big, but not for standard outlets or lights. The trick would be to only put 3 or 4 outlets per breaker instead of the 6 allowed. You can space them 4 inches apart if you want, but you aren't supposed to put more than 6 per breaker.

I can't even imagine why you would use 12/3 for lights. And if you are using a 15 amp breaker it doesn't matter either, that's the choke point. It can't handle any more.

Go 52" for the outlets. They suggest that height so when you lean the inevitable 4x8 sheet of plywood against the wall you can still access the outlets.

 

[saskscout]

1. 14/2 (they don't count the ground wire), unless you are planning on using 3 way switches is fine for ceiling lights, regardless if they are incandescent of fluorescent.
2. Depends on what you plan on running ! 98% of the time a 15A breaker, 14/2 and 15A receptacle are sufficient. However seeing as it is a garage and you might get some heavier equipment in there I would wire at least some, if not all, of the receptacle with a 20A breaker, 12/2 wire and real 20A receptacles.
3. In the US, I believe the standard is 48" off the floor.

This.

Can't comment on the height as I don't have my code book on me.

Max of 12 devices on a circuit. (If you go 15A)

 

[Kevin C]

I put 20 amp circuits in for everything. That allowed me to run ten 4' double bulb T8 fixtures and have some extra capacity to add more later.

As far as outlets go, 20 amps is nice because it allows me to use a small electric heater ( 11 amp draw) and still have some capacity for something else on the same circuit.

The cost difference from 15 to 20 amps is not that much and no matter what your running you get less of a voltage drop.

 

[ddawg16]

The cost difference between 14/2 and 12/2 is a lot less than the cost of changing just one ckt when you realize that you need 20 instead of 15.

Do the wise thing....for all your outlets, run 12/2.

 

[mrjaw14]

14ga should be outlawed in my opinion. always over build when you can. I agree 100% with ddawg16, run 12/2

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The OP is in Canada, his rules are different.

In the US, there is NO specification on height of receptacles in the Code.

In the US there is NO limit on how many receptacles can be on a circuit except for commercial.

In the US lighting is considered by the code to be a continuous load and thus cannot exceed 80% of the circuit capacity. thus a 15 amp circuit cannot be loaded over 12 amps and a 20 amp circuit cannot be loaded over 16 amps.

Power tools and electric motors like to have full current, the idea of using 14 gauge wire when you have the option of installing 12 gauge for a few bucks more, in a garage is.... well..... a bad idea.

Charles

 

[djjsr]

If you're drywalling and doing it yourself, try to avoid putting your outlets at a height where there will be a seam. Trying to mud a seam around a box can be difficult for a DIYer.

 

[Speedy Petey]

14ga should be outlawed in my opinion. always over build when you can.

A COMPLETELY absurd statement!

#14 & 15A is FINE for lighting circuits. WHY is more lights on a circuit (in a residential setting) a better thing??? I'm struggling to find the answer to that.

Receptacles I can see, too many folks are plugging in space heaters etc. Also, if this is a garage then power tools will be used. Another reason to go with 20A receptacle circuits.

 

[Speedy Petey]

In the US lighting is considered by the code to be a continuous load and thus cannot exceed 80% of the circuit capacity. thus a 15 amp circuit cannot be loaded over 12 amps and a 20 amp circuit cannot be loaded over 16 amps.

Can you tell me where I can find this in the code? I cannot seem to locate it in all the code books I have.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I believe in Canada residential lighting is limited to 15A circuits.

 

[mobiledynamics]

For me, not the mindset bigger is better.....

14AWG is my preferred for lighting circuits. Easier to *work* with tight Recessed can. Even using very large volume boxes with mud rings with let's say a box that holds 3-4 dimmers, I would prefer the 14 over 12 to work with in the box.

 

[Norcal]

I cannot comment as the CEC does have rules that differ from the NEC, & this is one of the times I wish that had a copy of the Canukistan Electrical Code.

 

[Speedy Petey]

14AWG is my preferred for lighting circuits. Easier to *work* with tight Recessed can. Even using very large volume boxes with mud rings with let's say a box that holds 3-4 dimmers, I would prefer the 14 over 12 to work with in the box.

For me this is the biggest issue. Those that don't do this every day don't have a clue what an issue this can be.
I CAN'T STAND when folks say it's ONLY about money and the contractor lining his pockets. As if we charge for #12 but supply #14. Shoot, I could buy that second home if I did that.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Ha Speedy Petey. This is the GJ forum afterall - so bigger is always better ;-/

 

[Speedy Petey]

Ha Speedy Petey. This is the GJ forum afterall - so bigger is always better ;-/

When it comes to motors I certainly agree!

 

[theoldwizard1]

When I wired my son's garage, I used 14/2 for the lights and 12/2 for the outlets with real 20A receptacles. Only 2 circuit, both protected by a GFCI receptacle as the first in the string (even for the lighting circuit). Each circuit was protected by the appropriate size fuse (different story).

And yes, installing 12 gauge wire is more difficult than installing 14 gauge !

 

[tfi racing]

should i just bite the bullet and go 12/3? this would be for ceiling lights (neon tubes)
Q2: are 15 amp wall sockets sufficient?i plan on one per 4 ft...
Q3: i was told 52 inches from floor....is this a common spec?
alan

-save your money,14/2 is all you would ever need for your lighting
-15A receptacles are fine,however I wire all garage receptacles with 12/2usually 1 20A circuit per wall for general receptacles,the extra cost won't break you.You can put them at any height you wish,52" is a good choice.
-GFCI receptacles are only required on the exterior,but you could use them inside if you are feeling like a real nancy.
-Ontario's ESA does have some goofy rules,what flies in the rest of Canada may not apply for you,as always check with the locals.

 

[Speedy Petey]

-GFCI receptacles are only required on the exterior,but you could use them inside if you are feeling like a real nancy.

No GFI for inside the garage? Interesting, and surprising.

 

[nosnerd]

-save your money,14/2 is all you would ever need for your lighting
-15A receptacles are fine,however I wire all garage receptacles with 12/2usually 1 20A circuit per wall for general receptacles,the extra cost won't break you.You can put them at any height you wish,52" is a good choice.
-GFCI receptacles are only required on the exterior,but you could use them inside if you are feeling like a real nancy.
-Ontario's ESA does have some goofy rules,what flies in the rest of Canada may not apply for you,as always check with the locals.

i feel like a nancy for certain things ...lol

thanks for the info! i will do 14 for lights and 12 for the 20 amp circuits...14 for the rest...

i work at CTC ...and there is a employee special coming up for christmas...i would like to take advantage of this...

alan

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Can you tell me where I can find this in the code? I cannot seem to locate it in all the code books I have.

Well, I'll have to admit, there is not a specific reference in the NEC to lighting being a continuous load, however, Lighting generally can be expected to meet the definition of a continuous load, especially garage and work shop type lighting.

I have listed some of what I found in the NEC, however this is no where near all the instances. Many places in the code call for sizing of circuits at 125% of loads (such as electric boilers, electric motors over 1/8 hp, electric vehicle and industrial vehicle charging, lighted business signs, solar cell systems, and small wind turbine systems) all have the 125% specification without being called continuous.

Charles

ARTICLE 100—DEFINITIONS

Continuous Load. A load where the maximum current is
expected to continue for 3 hours or more.

***

422.13 Storage-Type Water Heaters. A fixed storage-type
water heater that has a capacity of 450 L (120 gal) or less shall
be considered a continuous load for the purposes of sizing
branch circuits.

***

424.3 Branch Circuits.

(B) Branch-Circuit Sizing. Fixed electric space-heating
equipment and motors shall be considered continuous load

***

426.4 Continuous Load. Fixed outdoor electric deicing
and snow-melting equipment shall be considered as a continuous
load.

***

 

[Bigturk]

Like many have suggested 14/2 and 15 amp required for lights. Consider multiple circuits for your lights. I have 3 rows of lights on two different circuits. I can choose 1 row down center, 2 rows along walls or all 3 rows by turning both switches on. I ran 12/2 and 20 amp for wall plugs on 3 seperate circuits. Left wall plugs, right wall plugs and back wall plugs. GFCI not required in Canada for inside garage. Covered while in use cover now required for GFCI protected outside plugs.

 

[nosnerd]

^^^^^^ exactly how i want to run ...

14 for lights (spaced 4-6-4-6-4across and 4 back)....12 for wall sockets on shop side....(yes i will go 20 amps)

1 row per circuit breaker for lights

 

[Speedy Petey]

Well, I'll have to admit, there is not a specific reference in the NEC to lighting being a continuous load,

That was kind of my point. There is NO such code.

however, Lighting generally can be expected to meet the definition of a continuous load, especially garage and work shop type lighting.

In a residential setting I would say that most lighting is NOT a continuous load. Things like outside floods and other outside lighting, yes, but not much else.
Commercial I would call almost all lighting continuous.


The 125% term occurs all over the NEC, but it is a plain myth that ALL circuits must follow this. We see this written all the time on message boards etc. and it is just not true.

 

[walrus]

Lightning in my shop is certainly a continuous load and I would bet it is most peoples.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Lightning in my shop is certainly a continuous load and I would bet it is most peoples.

Mine too, but probably 80-90% of the country are not motor heads or have dedicated shops.
Not that it really matters that much.

 

[NUTTSGT]

When I built the house garage, I used 14/3 because I put in a 3 way switch for the lights. I bought only what I needed from switch to switch. Everything else in that garage and my garage gets 12/2 from the 1000' spool.

Is it overkill for some circuits, yep might be, but I only bought 1 spool of wire.

 

[Speedy Petey]

When I built the house garage, I used 14/3 because I put in a 3 way switch for the lights. I bought only what I needed from switch to switch. Everything else in that garage and my garage gets 12/2 from the 1000' spool.

So you have 14/3 on a circuit wired with #12? WHY???
If this is on a 20A circuit it is a CLEAR violation. And using a 15A breaker is a waste of #12 wire.

 

[srmofo]

I would suggest placing the receptacles at least 48" above the ground. When you lean a 4x8 sheet against the wall in wont be blocking your outlets.

12/2 on the outlets

14/2 on the lighting. I broke mine into 2 circuits so I never have to worry about overloading the circuit when add another light or 2 sometime in the future...i.e I plan to add a few lights in the storage space to one circuit, and outdoor lighting to the other circuit in the near future.

 

[NUTTSGT]

So you have 14/3 on a circuit wired with #12? WHY???
If this is on a 20A circuit it is a CLEAR violation. And using a 15A breaker is a waste of #12 wire.

It's on a 15 amp circuit for the garage lights only, six 60/75 watt incadescent bulbs. I wasn't going to buy a roll of 14/2 to make the run to the garage, another roll of 14/3 for the 3-way switch, while I have a 1000' spool of 12/2.

I never said that I had the #14 on a 20 amp breaker, you assumed that.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I never said that I had the #14 on a 20 amp breaker, you assumed that.

#12 on a 20 is typical. Why wouldn't I?

 

[walrus]

I would suggest placing the receptacles at least 48" above the ground. When you lean a 4x8 sheet against the wall in wont be blocking your outlets.

12/2 on the outlets

14/2 on the lighting. I broke mine into 2 circuits so I never have to worry about overloading the circuit when add another light or 2 sometime in the future...i.e I plan to add a few lights in the storage space to one circuit, and outdoor lighting to the other circuit in the near future.

AT 48 Plywood will cover the outlet, I'd go 52, I found that out the hard way

 

[volaredon]

There is no code in this area (sometimes local codes over ride NEC or BOCA code) about receptacle height. I dont remember off hand but I think I put the bottoms of the boxes at 48" I'd have to double check that. I have outlets about every 5'. The way I seperated the circuits for the outlets, was that everywhere there are outlets, there are 4 of them in one box. (2-2plug receptacles per) I put all of the "left receptacles" in each box on one circuit and all of the "right side" receptacles per box on another, and this was "per wall" So, since I have outlets on 3 walls, I have 6 breakers among the wall outlets and the ceiling ones are split up this way as well. No outlets on the South wall, as there are 2 overhead doors on that wall; and besides, there are plenty of them close to the corners on the East and West walls should I need an ext cord in the driveway, for what ever... I have needed an air line out there more often than electric, so far.

but the Inspector did tell me that I could not run anything lighter than 12GA wire anywhere "except a doorbell or thermostat". Not that I would anyway, personal preference. A heavier wire than absolutely needed for a given load won't get you into trouble, like too thin of wire can.

On GFCI's yes/ I had my wiring all done and ready to go> the inspector failed me and made me install GFCIs throughout, except for the ceiling. In the house and near the kitchen sink, toilet or shower that is quite understandable. but in a detached garage? Cmon now.
I initially put ONE GFCI in the garage with the intent of adding an outside outlet off of that one box (never did) I replaced the GFCI with "regular" 20A receptacles so it didn't "draw attention" from the inspector. I wound up having to put one in per circuit and "daisy chain" the rest of them downstream through that outlet for the Inspector to pass my electrical job. And he checked EVERY SINGLE outlet that he could reach from the ground to make sure it worked thru the GFCI and would trip it; not just one here and there....
I have no running water out there in the garage, so I did not see the need for them; but I did as the nice Inspector guy asked me to for sake of passing inspection; I look at them in that building since the inspection, like an uninvited houseguest; they behave as they should, and they can stay. they start causing me headaches and away they go. I have had 1 go bad on me since the garage was done; so I replaced that one with a plain old standard 20A receptacle, like I had originally installed in that box.

 

[Speedy Petey]

........

On GFCI's yes/ I had my wiring all done and ready to go> the inspector failed me and made me install GFCIs throughout, except for the ceiling. In the house and near the kitchen sink, toilet or shower that is quite understandable. but in a detached garage? Cmon now.
I initially put ONE GFCI in the garage with the intent of adding an outside outlet off of that one box (never did) I replaced the GFCI with "regular" 20A receptacles so it didn't "draw attention" from the inspector. I wound up having to put one in per circuit and "daisy chain" the rest of them downstream through that outlet for the Inspector to pass my electrical job. And he checked EVERY SINGLE outlet that he could reach from the ground to make sure it worked thru the GFCI and would trip it; not just one here and there....
I have no running water out there in the garage, so I did not see the need for them; but I did as the nice Inspector guy asked me to for sake of passing inspection; I look at them in that building since the inspection, like an uninvited houseguest; they behave as they should, and they can stay. they start causing me headaches and away they go. I have had 1 go bad on me since the garage was done; so I replaced that one with a plain old standard 20A receptacle, like I had originally installed in that box.

Funny how people outside the trade often question codes that have been evolving for over 100 years like they know better.
GFI protection for receptacles in garages (detached or attached) has been in place for MANY years now and many code cycles. I wonder why this is....

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The NFPA is all about money. I can tell you that based on the mailings and emailings I get from them. Its a constant flood of catalogs, brochures, cards and everything else trying to either sell me a code book of some sort, attend some sort of conference, or take some training of one sort or another (all at considerable cost). I probably receive 8 to ten mailings a week from them, plus emails.

While GFCI's are a good thing in many areas, I too see little value for them in the average workshop. Not being subject to strict code enforcement when my shop was built, I installed GFCI's at the receptacles near the doors, to plug in extension cords that might be run outside.... and I have replaced those receptacles several times in the past 12 years. One good lightning strike and the electronics go "****" and then I have to replace them. The ones in the house have fared only slightly better, the house being on a completely separate electrical feed, from a different source.

Charles