Is access to a junction box in a ceiling through a light fixture to code?

[rlitman]

This doesn't make sense. Pretty much all low voltage can lights I've ever seen have a junction box and a transformer in the ceiling that's only accessible by removing the can.

Those are can-less lights. You're removing the light, but there is no can to remove. At that point, the junction box is accessible behind the hole.

 

[PoorUB]

Never mind!

 

[McFixit]

Those are can-less lights. You're removing the light, but there is no can to remove. At that point, the junction box is accessible behind the hole.

Incorrect. I'm working right now on some low voltage halogen can lights that have a junction box that's only accessible once you remove the can.

 

[yeldogt]

I appreciate you doing the research and finding the actual code.

Do you happen to know whether the box has to be mounted, or can it just sit on the drywall in the ceiling?
I'm talking here about the junction/driver box that comes with an LED wafer light.

There seems to be a bit of a gray area now with all of these wafer LEDS. In the areas I have built they want the high voltage junction box attached --- like any remodel fixture. Not just sitting up there. I'm not sure how all of these are being sold --- in some areas they are not code.

 

[yeldogt]

Incorrect. I'm working right now on some low voltage halogen can lights that have a junction box that's only accessible once you remove the can.

If the box is attached so it comes out with the can -- that's fine.

 

[McFixit]

If the box is attached so it comes out with the can -- that's fine.

It's not. The box and the can are both attached to a mounting bracket.

As someone else pointed out, the code specifies that it can't be necessary to remove part of the building to access a box, not that there be no "obstruction". This should be obvious as boxes are routinely "obstructed" behind a plate, switch or outlet that has to be removed to access it.

 

[McFixit]

There seems to be a bit of a gray area now with all of these wafer LEDS. In the areas I have built they want the high voltage junction box attached --- like any remodel fixture. Not just sitting up there. I'm not sure how all of these are being sold --- in some areas they are not code.

There does indeed seem to be a gray area, at least in application. There are dozens of YouTube videos, including instructions *by light manufacturers* that show installation of LED wafer lights where the driver/junction box is just placed into the ceiling.

 

[yeldogt]

It's not. The box and the can are both attached to a mounting bracket.

As someone else pointed out, the code specifies that it can't be necessary to remove part of the building to access a box, not that there be no "obstruction". This should be obvious as boxes are routinely "obstructed" behind a plate, switch or outlet that has to be removed to access it.

Sorry -- I'm confused.

A light installed before drywall goes up will have the box attached to the frame and it will be wired in-place. It will have an approved whip to whatever holds the bulb. The wipe may cary 12v or 120 depening on the fixture. A remodel fixture will have a junction box where the high voltage cable can be attached and it's attached to the can in some way as to go into the hole -- these also have whip.

 

[yeldogt]

There does indeed seem to be a gray area, at least in application. There are dozens of YouTube videos, including instructions *by light manufacturers* that show installation of LED wafer lights where the driver/junction box is just placed into the ceiling.

In most of the world you can do all kinds of stuff ..... many of those lights have a driver that plugs into the wafer. The driver can be used for different light styles.

 

[McFixit]

In most of the world you can do all kinds of stuff ..... many of those lights have a driver that plugs into the wafer. The driver can be used for different light styles.

Right. In most of the LED wafers I'm seeing, the driver is inside a box where you can make your splice to the 110v line. That's what I was calling a driver/junction box.

The common method seems to be to just put that box in the ceiling unmounted. My question was: is that up to code in the U.S.?

 

[McFixit]

Sorry -- I'm confused.

A light installed before drywall goes up will have the box attached to the frame and it will be wired in-place. It will have an approved whip to whatever holds the bulb. The wipe may cary 12v or 120 depening on the fixture. A remodel fixture will have a junction box where the high voltage cable can be attached and it's attached to the can in some way as to go into the hole -- these also have whip.

Here's what I'm seeing in the house where I'm working:

The can lights were remodels, but access panels were cut into the drywall during installation (and later patched) to get everything into the ceiling.

There is a metal frame that braces between the trusses. That metal frame has a ring attached to it, onto which the can mounts with three screws. About five inches away from the can, a box is mounted to that metal frame, inside of which the splices to the 110v are made. That runs to a transformer which is attached to the outside of the box and steps the voltage down to 12v. A whip carries the 12v into the can, where it connects to the trim kit with a halogen socket.

So, the box is only accessible by removing the can.

I was originally replying to someone who seemed to be saying that it's not code to have a box that's only accessible by removing a can. I don't believe that person's statement is correct. Your first example (a box attached to the frame with a whip) would support my assertion. Also, someone else pointed out that the code only requires that no part of the building have to be removed to access the box. A can isn't really part of the building.

 

[yeldogt]

Here's what I'm seeing in the house where I'm working:

The can lights were remodels, but access panels were cut into the drywall during installation (and later patched) to get everything into the ceiling.

There is a metal frame that braces between the trusses. That metal frame has a ring attached to it, onto which the can mounts with three screws. About five inches away from the can, a box is mounted to that metal frame, inside of which the splices to the 110v are made. That runs to a transformer which is attached to the outside of the box and steps the voltage down to 12v. A whip carries the 12v into the can, where it connects to the trim kit with a halogen socket.

So, the box is only accessible by removing the can.

I was originally replying to someone who seemed to be saying that it's not code to have a box that's only accessible by removing a can. I don't believe that person's statement is correct. Your first example (a box attached to the frame with a whip) would support my assertion. Also, someone else pointed out that the code only requires that no part of the building have to be removed to access the box. A can isn't really part of the building.

They are code (remodels) .... the remodel type go in and out of the hole as an assembly. There should have been no need to cut other holes and patch unless they had to make provisions to drill holes to fish wires.

Maybe they installed new construction type --- seems unlikely.

With the wafer type from china the transformer just sits on the ceiling -- seems that's the problem

 

[McFixit]

They are code (remodels) .... the remodel type go in and out of the hole as an assembly. There should have been no need to cut other holes and patch unless they had to make provisions to drill holes to fish wires.

Maybe they installed new construction type --- seems unlikely.

With the wafer type from china the transformer just sits on the ceiling -- seems that's the problem

They had to cut access panels because the metal frame that the can and box mount to is much too large to go through the 4" hole for the can.

Yes, the problem I'm wondering about is the wafer type where the transformer sits on the ceiling.

 

[PoorUB]

I put in a few of these wafer lights. The electrical box I mounted to the joist in the ceiling with a couple wood screws after I wired in the box. Then pilg in the wafer light and snap in the light. I don't know, but I can not believe is is allowed to wire in the box and just leave is lay in the ceiling.

 

[Terry D]

In a remodel situation where you are fishing wires in a existing ceiling, the wiring lays directly on the ceiling. It does not have to be supported per code. That box on the wafer style lights is part of the fixture. There is nothing wrong with that box to also lay on the ceiling. It is accessible by removing the fixture. That is how all recessed lighting works. On a new constuction can, you remove the can part to access the wiring compartment in the ceiling. On a remodel style can, you remove the entire can and the wiring compartment comes out with it.

 

[billconner]

Both types I used, one with junction box attached to fixture and the other with junction box loose on ceiling and plug connected pigtail, you could have box below ceiling to wire. Electrical inspector said fine, but I thought being able to have box below ceiling was a part of that. Also, for both the fixture and box were a listed assembly and installed per nanufacturer. Of course at inspection time, he hardly looked up, let alone inspect wiring.

Screwing the box to joist above opening and doing wiring etc. through opening is a little different. Don't know. Maybe it should be left loose with enough wire to pull it out.

 

[yeldogt]

They had to cut access panels because the metal frame that the can and box mount to is much too large to go through the 4" hole for the can.

Yes, the problem I'm wondering about is the wafer type where the transformer sits on the ceiling.

That's not a remodel -- they must have used new construction. A remodel all fits in the hole for the can

 

[yeldogt]

In a remodel situation where you are fishing wires in a existing ceiling, the wiring lays directly on the ceiling. It does not have to be supported per code. That box on the wafer style lights is part of the fixture. There is nothing wrong with that box to also lay on the ceiling. It is accessible by removing the fixture. That is how all recessed lighting works. On a new constuction can, you remove the can part to access the wiring compartment in the ceiling. On a remodel style can, you remove the entire can and the wiring compartment comes out with it.

Maybe this is a moving target -- or there have been some updates w/ some of the fixtures? I was told you can't use them in an enclosed ceiling

 

[Terry D]

Maybe this is a moving target -- or there have been some updates w/ some of the fixtures? I was told you can't use them in an enclosed ceiling

Im not understanding. The wafer style mounts to the finished ceiling surface. They wouldn't work in an open ceiling

 

[yeldogt]

Im not understanding. The wafer style mounts to the finished ceiling surface. They wouldn't work in an open ceiling

Soffit, drop .... inside a cabinet .... not a typical drywall ceiling

 

[Terry D]

Soffit, drop .... inside a cabinet .... not a typical drywall ceiling

Never heard that. I dont use them all that much. I have used them a few times in a shower where a standard can would not fit. They ones I used were rated for a wet location

 

[yeldogt]

Never heard that. I dont use them all that much. I have used them a few times in a shower where a standard can would not fit. They ones I used were rated for a wet location

That's why I'm wondering what the actual rating of these things are ... can only go by what I encountered. I was not using them -- was discussing them with the electric sub woking at my project in PA and then a code official in NJ on another. I know you can use them inside a cabinet and attach the power supply.

Also -- FYI: Something that is rated "wet" may or may not be suitable for a shower. Lots of "wet" fixtures can not be used inside a shower.

Example: In NYC -- unless it says .... suitable for shower or sold as shower light and so manufacturer described ... they flag it.

 

[billconner]

Heres what I used recently. IC rated.

Amazon.com

I'm pretty sure NEC allows fishing wires in existing construction without securing it.

 

[rlitman]

...Yes, the problem I'm wondering about is the wafer type where the transformer sits on the ceiling.

What's the problem? CODE is not the problem here. Why? Because CODE does not apply to the fixture. UL applies to the fixture. If you're getting a UL listed fixture, you follow the directions to meet the listing requirements, and you're GTG.

The fixture is not part of the building, so the box is still accessible behind the fixture, so code requirements (which are for the box alone, but nothing beyond it) are met.

I put in a few of these wafer lights. The electrical box I mounted to the joist in the ceiling with a couple wood screws after I wired in the box. Then pilg in the wafer light and snap in the light. I don't know, but I can not believe is is allowed to wire in the box and just leave is lay in the ceiling.

This is a TERRIBLE idea. You've just taken an accessible box and made it inaccessible.
THAT violates the code.

There is no good reason to mount the box of a wafer light, and every good reason to leave it hanging so that it can be serviced in the future.

 

[PoorUB]

What's the problem? CODE is not the problem here. Why? Because CODE does not apply to the fixture. UL applies to the fixture. If you're getting a UL listed fixture, you follow the directions to meet the listing requirements, and you're GTG.

The fixture is not part of the building, so the box is still accessible behind the fixture, so code requirements (which are for the box alone,
There is no good reason to mount the box of a wafer light, and every good reason to leave it hanging so that it can be serviced in the future.

Even when the installation instructions tell you to mount the box so it is accessible through the hole for the wafer light?

That is how mine are installed. I can access the box through the hole for the wafer.

 

[Terry D]

What about if there is no framing to mount to. Not all installs is going to be next to framing. Plus just how many tools and hands are you going to get in a 4 inch hole

 

[rlitman]

Even when the installation instructions tell you to mount the box so it is accessible through the hole for the wafer light?

That is how mine are installed. I can access the box through the hole for the wafer.

So long as you can remove the screws through the hole then yes, that's fine. I've attached some of mine to the joists using velcro.