Is copper the new gold

[cwoodyfly2001]

I just took delivery of a new husky 60 gal compressor and I want to put it in the shed along the side of the house.. The shed is about 65 ft away from the garage and I am trying to find an easy way to get the pipe from the shed to the garage with minimal pressure losses? I went to HD and almost fell over after looking at the cost of copper pipe.. Any other ideas? I was thinking of
1. run 1/2 air hose from shed under the house and go to copper in the garage
2. run the black gas pipe from shed to garage and copper in the garage
3. put the compressor in the garage and deal with the noise and eliminate the long run all together..
Any ideas would be appreciated
Thanks
cwoodyfly2001

 

[the intimidator]

might it be cheaper to run a rubber air hose threw the pvc counduit that stuff is only a couple bucks for a 10 foot length and you can get a 100' air hose cheap.

why not builld a shed right next to the garage?

 

[wilbilt]

You will get CFM losses with such a long 1/2" run. It would also tend to collect moisture unless properly sloped with a drain valve.

I would avoid running hose where it is not easily accessible. What happens if the hose blows under the house?

I would locate it closer, as the intimidator suggested. Maybe build a "doghouse" next to the garage if the noise bothers you.

And yes, copper has gone through the roof. I was going to buy some about 6 months ago to run some air lines, and now wish I had. The price has more than doubled since then.

 

[GearHead_1]

When I built my home about a year ago, copper wire cost me about $45/roll. I had a friend tell me last week that the same wire is now over $100/roll in our area. It about floored me. I probably used 50 rolls of wire in wiring this home.

 

[Jay H 237]

When I built my home about a year ago, copper wire cost me about $45/roll. I had a friend tell me last week that the same wire is now over $100/roll in our area. It about floored me. I probably used 50 rolls of wire in wiring this home.

There have been several stories in the paper recently about houses under construction near me being raped of plumbing and wiring overnight. The contractors return the next day and find all the work they had been doing ripped apart and gone.


Now I do like the intimidators idea of the rubber air line in the PVC conduit. I would take it a little further though. I would make it so if the hose ever needs to be replaced you can just pull it out of the conduit and replace it. I would also run a larger hose than 1/2" for the main line though. MSC, McMaster, and others have 3/4" or even larger rubber air hose.

 

[Satatic]

Copper went up 600% one week and just like gas, it will never go back down.

 

[wilbilt]

I have a bunch of copper wire of various gauges, random lengths up to 50' or so. Everything from 14 AWG up to 2 AWG. I wonder if it's time to strip off the insulation and cash it in...maybe it would pay for a garage slab?

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/copper_historical_large.html#1year

 

[rockwithjason]

This happens about every twenty years or so. Commodities like copper and other metals go into short supply because of a long bear market. Then when demand outstrips production prices shoot up. As industry gears up production then things settle down. The dollar price looks alot the same because of inflation after the boom is over.

 

[wilbilt]

This happens about every twenty years or so. Commodities like copper and other metals go into short supply because of a long bear market. Then when demand outstrips production prices shoot up. As industry gears up production then things settle down. The dollar price looks alot the same because of inflation after the boom is over.

That makes sense...but...if you look at the graphs in the link I posted, the major increase in copper price happened just this year. The sharpest increase coincided with lower available product, but now the warehouse stock levels are back to normal...and the price is still going up. The dollar price still looks high to me, because my income certainly didn't increase at the rate the value of copper did...

I read that it was related to a copper mine strike in South America, but that makes about as much sense as gas prices going up when one refinery shuts down for a day or two.

Obviously, I don't know a lot about high finance and global economics, but I can tell you one thing...I don't keep my money in banks. I keep it in my pocket.

Will

 

[REFLEXX]

Ummmm, look at who's sucking up the worlds raw materials. A not so little place called CHINA. The prices will only continue to rise for several reasons:

1. The need it because they are growing (industry) at an alarming rate.

2. By buying so much raw materials, they hurt industries in other countries too (USA, for example) which, in turn, makes their industries stronger.

3. They turn around and sell it to us once all the other sources are gone and they start charging WHATEVER they want. They will do this with everything. Remember when Japan did this? It hurt us bad, now imagine a country 50 time bigger doing this!

 

[dboat]

I thought it was still from the Katrina effect as well.. How much gov't (read OURS) money will be poured into that pit of a city, New Orleans? when there is that kind of money involved, wont supplier step up and raise the rates? This is not meant as a slam on most of the folks that live there, they are decent folks, just the political system and those that wont try to get a job but just a handout.
Dana

 

[johnand]

Yes, copper is the new gold. I just spent ~$600 in copper to plumb my garage for compressed air. I could have done it early this year for ~$200.

I looked at garage pak as an alternative, and the piping is half the price of copper, but the fittings are about 2-3 times the price of copper. The ball valves are really expensive at ~$50ea. Plus, you have to pay for shipping. I just ended up going with copper for ease of availability. I can run down to the local Lowe's and pick it up. I used 1" copper for the main feeds and it was $43.95/10ft stick. Though installation of the Garage Pak, is much easier then sweating copper.

You will get a lot of pressure drop from 1/2" rubber hose. but if you have a good compressor you might be able to get away with it.

 

[wilbilt]

I used 1" copper for the main feeds and it was $43.95/10ft stick.

! It was "only" $36.95/stick 2 weeks ago....

I think it's going to be black iron pipe for me.

 

[REFLEXX]

2x for black iron.

 

[bmwpower]

2x for black iron.

How much for a stick of black iron?

 

[Itzkwik]

I was checking prices at HD last week. 3/4" copper was around $35/10' and the black iron was $10.50.

 

[SM Racing]

Why not just use PVC? I did my shop in that and it was cheap. Plus you can still go down to Lowes and pick up additional parts.

 

[REFLEXX]

One word: fragmentation.

 

[wilbilt]

Why not just use PVC? I did my shop in that and it was cheap. Plus you can still go down to Lowes and pick up additional parts.

PVC is unsafe to use for high pressure air applications. It becomes brittle over time and can shatter.

I once worked for a guy who was very cheap. He plumbed the entire shop with PVC for air. No hose reels, either, just those yellow nylon coil hoses hanging down in each bay.

Somebody called OSHA (I think it was a customer) and they shut him down until he had the piping redone with iron pipe.

I'm not cheap (just broke), but I would not use PVC even in my home shop.

Will

 

[rockwithjason]

Bull markets in commodities usually last about ten years. Only 8 to go! lol

 

[junkman104]

copper is high enough now we cut wiring out of cars going to the crusher. Its about 800.00 per uncleaned gaylord box full.

 

[boiler7904]

PVC is unsafe to use for high pressure air applications. It becomes brittle over time and can shatter.

In addition to that, I don't think it meets plumbing code which will be a problem if you go to sell the house and need a comprehensive home inspection.

The only three real choices are copper, black iron, or aluminum (Garage-Pak). Using anything else is asking for an accident. It's not worth the risk.

 

[PAToyota]

I'm sure that you'll find many people that say they've been using PVC for years without problems. However, there are two truths to consider. First, the oil from your compressor will make PVC brittle over time. Second, when it does fail it will send shrapnel flying everywhere. I've seen first hand the aftermath of a PVC rupture. After seeing what it will do to drywall I really don't want to see what it could do to flesh...

 

[BowtieNut]

What about PVC just for the underground portion? I'm planning on doing something similar to cwoodyfly2001, and I was planning on using PVC for the 65' underground run, and adapt over to brass before coming out of the ground. On mine I figure I'll save over $200 on the underground run compared to brass. And I really don't want a threaded NPT connection every 10' to worry about leaking if I use iron pipe. Besides, it'll all be 18" underground anyways, so no risk of flying shrapnel there I wouldn't think. Anybody see any other problems with that? I'm open to suggestions, but so far I'm thinking this looks like the best option for me. I'll be running this in the same trench as my natural gas, and another separate PVC run for low voltage phone/TV/computer.

 

[JFSmith]

I am wiring my garage for 200 amp service to run my mill, lathe and TIG welder, and it is costing me a lot!

 

[PAToyota]

Just saw in the paper today that they are looking for the people who ripped down the copper gutters and downspouts from one of the historic structures in town...

 

[ba614]

I'd run at least 1" black iron pipe. You can use weld or screw fittings. Personally I'd gas weld it with oxy/act. You could even use conduit benders and eliminate buying fittings. Schedule 40 1" ain't real easy to bend with conduit benders but it's doable. Another way would be to buy ******* and cut them in half and weld the threads on the length you needed to put a fitting on. Iron pipe ain't cheep anymore either. All metals have gone way up in price.

 

[boiler7904]

Just saw in the paper today that they are looking for the people who ripped down the copper gutters and downspouts from one of the historic structures in town...

Nice. We have the problem of people stealing spools of wire and wire pulled through conduit and boxes before it's terminated. One project I'm working on now has a perimeter fence that is locked every night. When the cable for running from main switch gear to panels was delivered, all of it was immediately stored out of site in the basement and locked to the building columns. Granted it won't stop a determined theif but they are taking every stop possible to stop theft. Panel feeds are anything from #2 up to 4/0 and runs are measured in hundreds or thousands of feet depending on location. The first cable delivery for low voltage wiring was just over 200,000 feet or about 38 miles.

 

[z28toz06]

might it be cheaper to run a rubber air hose threw the pvc counduit that stuff is only a couple bucks for a 10 foot length and you can get a 100' air hose cheap.

why not builld a shed right next to the garage?

The guy is complaining about the cost of 65 feet of copper and your suggestion is to build a shed next to the garage?

How much is a ten foot length of copper?

 

[z28toz06]

I'd run at least 1" black iron pipe. You can use weld or screw fittings. Personally I'd gas weld it with oxy/act. You could even use conduit benders and eliminate buying fittings. Schedule 40 1" ain't real easy to bend with conduit benders but it's doable. Another way would be to buy ******* and cut them in half and weld the threads on the length you needed to put a fitting on. Iron pipe ain't cheep anymore either. All metals have gone way up in price.

I thought Iron pipe was no longer recommended due to the moisture/rusting of the pipe which will cause problems with tools, painting etc?

 

[wilbilt]

I thought Iron pipe was no longer recommended due to the moisture/rusting of the pipe which will cause problems with tools, painting etc?

That may be, but around here, black iron pipe is less than half the cost of copper.

If the system is drained of moisture regularly, rust shouldn't be an issue.

 

[wilbilt]

What about PVC just for the underground portion? I'm planning on doing something similar to cwoodyfly2001, and I was planning on using PVC for the 65' underground run, and adapt over to brass before coming out of the ground.

The research I have done indicates that PVC can be used for pressure applications if it is buried. At least, OSHA says it's OK.

I don't know what 3/4" or 1" schedule 40 PVC is rated for, pressure-wise. You want to make sure you aren't exceeding the rating.

 

[BowtieNut]

Thanks, I checked over the weekend and 3/4" sch 40 PVC is rated for 480 psi. Mine will be regulated down to 100 psi or less. In my case, my shed (where the compressor is) is acutally attached to the shop, and I want to run some air to the other garage just so I can fill up tires on the daily drivers & bikes and stuff. There won't be any heavy use in that garage, but it would be nice to have air there sometimes. I think I'll just go ahead and use the PVC for the underground part.

 

[rockwithjason]

Thanks, I checked over the weekend and 3/4" sch 40 PVC is rated for 480 psi. Mine will be regulated down to 100 psi or less. In my case, my shed (where the compressor is) is acutally attached to the shop, and I want to run some air to the other garage just so I can fill up tires on the daily drivers & bikes and stuff. There won't be any heavy use in that garage, but it would be nice to have air there sometimes. I think I'll just go ahead and use the PVC for the underground part.

I would use it for the undergournd portion. Just make sure you bury it 18 inches or so. That way if you do have a blow out it will be contained. Also I would use steel for the stub ups out of the ground.

 

[74-77Camaro]

I thought Iron pipe was no longer recommended due to the moisture/rusting of the pipe which will cause problems with tools, painting etc?

I had been thinking about this: why not run iron pipe around for tools / air gun outlets, and a shorter run of copper over to outlets for painting? Place a T in there and one long direction iron, the shorter direction copper?

I would think that if you have reasonable filters and oil the tools as recommended, the iron pipe should work for normal stuff.

 

[REFLEXX]

Right now I have a temp set-up that's a 20 gallon oilless compressor (damn loud) and air hoses running everywhere.

It's in my storage room to keep the noise down. I have a machine (CNC mill) that makes this compressor cycle EVERY 40 SECONDS. I'm expecting this oilless to live a short life.

The amout of moisture it creates is amazing. My guess would be about a GALLON a day, just in the tank and the 50 foot hose. Not to mention the rust particles that the tank generates! This is temporary until I get my 4 cylinder / 80 gallon hooked up.

The CNC would suffer a lot of damage if any moisture gets into. So I bought a Harbor Freight air /moisture filter:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1118
and it works fantastic! I just make sure to drain it twice a day. I also have a "glass bowl" type trap right after it and it's usually very dry. I cannot believe that the $20 HF filter works so well.

That was the big factor in deciding to use black pipe. Whatever rust / moisture issue arise, this will filter it out. If I have to replace a few of these every year or to, so be it. At $20 a pop, that's cheap insurance!

There are also scematics on-line on how to make your own moisture traps (for the bulk of the moisture) and then just have these filters as a final "drying"

 

[wilbilt]

The CNC would suffer a lot of damage if any moisture gets into. So I bought a Harbor Freight air /moisture filter:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1118
and it works fantastic! I just make sure to drain it twice a day. I also have a "glass bowl" type trap right after it and it's usually very dry. I cannot believe that the $20 HF filter works so well.

Thanks for that review. If it's good enough for a droid, it's good enough for me.

I have to go near the "bad place" (HF) in a couple of weeks to pick up a transmission...I guess I'llhave to grab a couple of those filters, too.

Wow, that was easy...

Will

 

[danski0224]

If PVC pipe is known to fail over time in air delivery applications, then why bother using it at all? Why expend the effort to bury it when the possibility exists that it will need to be relaced?

Sure seems like a significant amount of effort is being made to save a few dollars. Yup, copper is expensive, and harder to work with compared to gluing PVC, but I would do it once instead of twice.

Kinda wierd how there is almost always the time to do something twice (or to rationalize doing it twice or thrice) instead of doing it right once...

Oh well, I couldn't talk my buddy out of using it either desipte sending him OSHA info.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If PVC pipe is known to fail over time in air delivery applications, then why bother using it at all? Why expend the effort to bury it when the possibility exists that it will need to be relaced?.

In normal use, the PVC would last a long time, possibly many years, especially buried underground. White PVC is not ultraviolet resistant (hence the grey on electrical PVC) and the exposure to any UV will speed the deterioation process. Most air lines are run exposed in shops.

The problem with PVC is..... WHEN it fails...... the way in which it fails. With metal pipes, they usually split, air leaks out, end of problem. With some plastics, such as the couple of ABS plastics approved for compressed gasses including air, they too split and end of problem. With PVC, it SHATTERS like glass. If you are running water in a PVC pipe and it fails, then it simply breaks, the pressure drops to near zero, and remaining water simply runs out, no explosive force. Compressed gasses have energy stored in them as the molecules are compressed together, when the pipe breaks, you have flying pipe shreads, powered by this expanding air, and the continuing stream of air coming from the tank. A very dangerous situation. Imagine what happens when a ladder in your shop accidently falls on a PVC pipe under 125 psi or pressure? The impact will cause a rupture of the pipe, and sharp pieces of PVC will be flying everywhere.

If you bury the pipe, you have eliminated the UV situation, the pipe is capable of withstanding the pressure, it has the ground to protect it from impact damage (except for rocks that might be rubbing up againist it) and the earth provides protection from the flying pieces in event of a failure. The only problem you have not eliminated is weaking of the pipe due to certain types of synthetic oils that are used in oil type pump compressors.

Charles

 

[iiibdsiil]

Does PVC really weigh enough to get any momentum going to hurt you? I understand if you are 2 feet from it anything is gonna hurt. But, I would think at some distance it would really lose it's umph and at worst poke an eye out.