tcianci
Well-known member
I was at depot yesterday next to the Bernz-O-Money MappPro was Sievert Mapp gas. Is this the real thing or the same formulation as CrapPro?
Is real Mapp back?
- Thread starter tcianci
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KnurledNut
Well-known member
No.
True MAPP was a mix of methylacetylene, propadiene and propane.
Sievert is just propene, the same thing used in other MAPP substitutes.
True MAPP was a mix of methylacetylene, propadiene and propane.
Sievert is just propene, the same thing used in other MAPP substitutes.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
And an important word there is "was". It hasn't been made for years now
rust in the eye
Well-known member
Wow, you got my hopes up.
According to the Sievert website their "MAPP" (apparently they now own the name) is propylene.
https://sievert.se/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Powercase-Leaflet_ENGLISH-1.pdf
Bummer, just yesterday I struggled to reconfigure some 1" copper pipes using the bogus gas
According to the Sievert website their "MAPP" (apparently they now own the name) is propylene.
https://sievert.se/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Powercase-Leaflet_ENGLISH-1.pdf
Bummer, just yesterday I struggled to reconfigure some 1" copper pipes using the bogus gas
bubinga
Well-known member
Yeah, the old MAP ran a lot hotter. I read the "MAP" today is no hotter than propane.
reader2580
Well-known member
I wonder why no company is bringing back "real" MAPP gas since so many people lament its demise? I know that many professional plumbers use straight acetylene for soldering now.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Today's MAPP is MAPP Pro. It is colder than propane !
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Iirc, it was a product of a certain refining process that isn't used anymore. Or something like that.
Ultimately, it is probably like many things people complain about. Lots of bitching and no action. People say they will buy xyz thing if it is made and don't actually follow through on it
WWheeler
Well-known member
This is an offten misquoted set of numbers for MAPP gas. While the older MAPP gas was indeed noticeably better than the current MAPP-Pro qualitatively, it could only reach the ~5000+˚F temperatures when burned with pure oxygen, much like propane as compared to oxy-propane. MAPP gas in air (along with virtually all non-oxygenated hydrocarbons) burns in the high 3000s ˚F.
kaymccampbell
Well-known member
IIRC, MAPP in air was about 3800-ish. Honestly, propane in one of the new MAPP-Pro turbo torches seems to beat MAPP-Pro. I think the stocks we have are aged out or dilute.
There are no industrial users left. Oxy-propane is good enough for most uses, and oxy-acetylene is cheaper for what it isn't. Underwater torch was one of the big consumers of the gas because acetylene spontaneously decomposes at the pressures required for even shallow underwater use, but that has all changed to exothermic lances and arc gouging. The last place making it found it more profitable to do something else with the plant capacity, so they shut down.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Because pros, like HVAC guys use acetylene for brazing.
neophyte
Well-known member
Is acetylene even really needed for brazing with modern torch designs ?
The Bernzomatic TS8000 torches can get copper pipe to annealing temperatures in seconds, which is hot enough to braze.
Sievert snd most other torch manufacturers produce something similar.
Acetylene also has a bunch of safety issues propane and faux Mapp gas don’t have.
The Bernzomatic TS8000 torches can get copper pipe to annealing temperatures in seconds, which is hot enough to braze.
Sievert snd most other torch manufacturers produce something similar.
Acetylene also has a bunch of safety issues propane and faux Mapp gas don’t have.
bubinga
Well-known member
So, a Bernzomatic TS8000 torch would be better for general heating in the shop, as opposed to the older style Bernzomatic torch tips, for freeing stuck bolts and the like?
MattGarage
Well-known member
For anyone who wants something like MAPP - these guys are putting in work - Bluefire . http://www.bluewaterindustrial.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/MAPP-Gas.pdf
I have a stash of MAPP but use propane most of time. Now oxygen-fuel - that's where the fun is!
I have a stash of MAPP but use propane most of time. Now oxygen-fuel - that's where the fun is!
MattGarage
Well-known member
I find it has a very large flame and that can be good and bad. Think of it like a big wrench when sometimes you need something smaller. That and a regular pencil torch are a great combo. The pencil torch is good for a lot of stuff!
dnschmidt
Well-known member
All of the real deal MAP gas was made by one British Oxygen factory (BOC) and they closed down that factory so no more real deal MAP which does indeed ****.
neophyte
Well-known member
It really depends on what you’re heating, and how big the object is.
Copper conducts heat really well, so it’s usually harder to get an area hot, because the heat gets drawn away due to the heat conductivity.
The stainless and brass turbo tips on the TS8000 series Bernxomatic torches get the copper red hot very quickly.
For heating bolts up red hot it should be perfectly fine.
The smaller older Bernzomatic torch tips used to take way longer, to the point were I don’t know why anyone would try to use one for soldering plumbing fittings, unless completely broke and that’s all you have.
If you need different heat outputs from the same torch, Sievert makes a similar bottle top torch with interchangeable tips that is sold under the Metaljet, and Powerjet names, with interchangeable tips.
The system is also sold by Rothenberger Tools of Germany (Basically the German equivalent of Ridgid) and some other brands.
For really small pinpoint heating, a butane torch is probably better.
reader2580
Well-known member
I suspect most people who lament the demise of real MAP gas were doing soldering, or other heating, instead of brazing.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
I love the TS8000/4000 series torches for soldering and general heating of stuff, but they don't even come close to the heating power or versatility of oxy/acetylene. It's unreal how fast oxy/acetylene will heat something up. Even small pipes can be quite difficult to braze with air/propane.
bubinga
Well-known member
Thank you.
Professional plumbers used acetylene long before Mapp gas was available. Years ago it wasn’t unusual to need to solder 3” copper and melt fairly large quantities of lead for joints in cast iron soil pipe. You needed a torch that not only achieved the necessary temperature but could dump a lot of heat into a joint or ladle. I spent a few summers of my teenage years hauling that tank, cleaning fittings and melting lead.
dr_clyde
Well-known member
I’ve got a couple cans of genuine MAPP in the cabinet still. I so rarely use them that it probably will last me a decade or more. The Map-pro stuff works fine for most of my small torch jobs and the oxy-fuel setup handles everything else.
If I was plumbing a big job, I’d just go acetylene and not bother with the lower temp stuff.
Once you add pure oxygen to the mix most fuels get hot enough for everything except welding.
If I was plumbing a big job, I’d just go acetylene and not bother with the lower temp stuff.
Once you add pure oxygen to the mix most fuels get hot enough for everything except welding.
Yeah, saw the 'MAPP' cylinders show up at Home Depot a while ago and got semi-excited.
Picked up a cylinder from the shelf in the store and then looked at the label. In the fine print on the label it listed the contents as "propylene".
Pissed me off. Same stuff as "MAP-Pro", which is NOT the same as actual MAPP.
Almost bought a cylinder just so that I could then file a lawsuit for fraudulent labeling or some such.
I think I used up my last cylinder of actual MAPP a while ago.
A TS8000 torch (what I usually use and generally like for plumbing type jobs) with MAP-Pro is still no match for the higher temperature and higher heating (not the same thing) of actual MAPP in the TS8000 torch.
Picked up a cylinder from the shelf in the store and then looked at the label. In the fine print on the label it listed the contents as "propylene".
Pissed me off. Same stuff as "MAP-Pro", which is NOT the same as actual MAPP.
Almost bought a cylinder just so that I could then file a lawsuit for fraudulent labeling or some such.
I think I used up my last cylinder of actual MAPP a while ago.
A TS8000 torch (what I usually use and generally like for plumbing type jobs) with MAP-Pro is still no match for the higher temperature and higher heating (not the same thing) of actual MAPP in the TS8000 torch.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Mapp is a trademark, albeit based on the original chemical composition of the fuel. They could use it for an energy drink if they wantedYeah, saw the 'MAPP' cylinders show up at Home Depot a while ago and got semi-excited.
Picked up a cylinder from the shelf in the store and then looked at the label. In the fine print on the label it listed the contents as "propylene".
Pissed me off. Same stuff as "MAP-Pro", which is NOT the same as actual MAPP.
Almost bought a cylinder just so that I could then file a lawsuit for fraudulent labeling or some such.
I think I used up my last cylinder of actual MAPP a while ago.
A TS8000 torch (what I usually use and generally like for plumbing type jobs) with MAP-Pro is still no match for the higher temperature and higher heating (not the same thing) of actual MAPP in the TS8000 torch.
jsmeece
Well-known member
An expired Trademark, in 2002 I think.
Trademarks don't simply expire. As long as the trademark holder is using the trademark in commerce, they're entitled to renew the trademark indefinitely. It's always possible that the trademark holder could decide to not renew ownership of the trademark, but there is nothing to force them to relinquish it like exists for patents.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
So now anyone can use it
jsmeece
Well-known member
https://trademarks.justia.com/723/57/mapp-72357778.html
| 2002-07-20 | CANCELLED SEC. 8 (10-YR)/EXPIRED SECTION 9 |
The trademark holder declined to renew the trademark when the 10-year renewal came due. My previous statement is still true; trademarks don't have mandatory expirations like patents, they can be renewed indefinitely if the trademark-holder wants to.
jsmeece
Well-known member
As does mine, expired in 2002.
You are correct. I read your first post of "An expired Trademark" to mean that the trademark timed-out forcefully like patents do, rather than "the holder allowed the trademark to expire" which is what actually happened.
neophyte
Well-known member
Trademarks also need to be defended, to prevent the Trademark from becoming a generic term, and to prevent other manufacturers from seizing the Trademark by usage.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Ford wanted to re-use "Futura" (higher end Falcon in the 60s) but some tire company had picked it up and Ford never defended it !