Is the seller liable?

[bchee]

Take a look at this auction. I might be wrong, but I don't think these pliers are actually insulated. I doubt the seller would be held accountable if something happened. He has other pliers that he claims are insulated.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...UCC%2BUCI%2BIT%2BUA%2BSI%2BUS-BWR&otn=4&ps=56

 

[nissan_crawler]

Just another clueless tard selling tools, I'm guessing. I don't think kobalt has insulated tools, but I could be wrong.

 

[Bull]

Can you guys help this clueless tard understand what a tool needs to be truly insulated? I see those pliers have some kind of non-metallic handles...no dice?

 

[nissan_crawler]

There's a big difference between a grip on a handle and an insulated electrician's tool.

 

[Bull]

There's a big difference between a grip on a handle and an insulated electrician's tool.

Can you explain the difference? I'd like to be educated on the matter. I always thought that any non-conductive grip essentially insulated the user from potential shock.

 

[Coach James]

Those pliers are not rated as insulated. My Wiha insulated pliers are listed as being rated for 1,000V and the covering is multi layer material. Insulated tools should also have a stamp, kind of like UL, showing that they have been rated by some agency(I can't remember the name). Just having a plastic handle is not electrical insulation. Insulated pliers often have grips that prevent your hand from slipping onto the exposed metal.

http://www.wihatools.com/pro_insulated.htm

Coach

 

[goodfellow]

Electrician grade tool insulation must pass strict pressure, arc flash, electrical resistance, puncture, and temperature differential tests. Although they may look similar to conventional mechanics tools, their grip compound and quality control is subject to much higher and rigorous standards.


Standards are IEEE and OSHA specific.

 

[Bull]

There is a product available that is basically liquid rubber that dries hard...Color Guard it might be called? I have an older 1 gallon can. It is meant for dipping the handles of pliers and whatnot into, and I believe one of the claims on the can is that it insulates the tool. Sounds like I should be skeptical of this claim...?

 

[goodfellow]

I believe one of the claims on the can is that it insulates the tool. Sounds like I should be skeptical of this claim...?

You're darn right to be skeptical! Insulated electricians tools are expensive -- and for good reason.

 

[Bull]

Well, this is all good to know! Thanks.

 

[keywestjack]

Does anyone remember the claim that some power tools had in the 70s " double insulated". As I remember they did away with grounding making that claim. I never thought much of it.

 

[FNFS2000]

He is not specifically claiming "electrically insulated" With the sad state of legal matters in the USA, sellers need to be very cautious. Even if your not found to be at fault, you wasted several days in lost pay at work, or lost productivity if your a business operator, and all the legal fees involved. There are a lot of people out their neck deep in entitlement thinking that believe the world owes them everything. I first used a polititcal term instead of people, but I didn't want to stir things up too much.

 

[Coach James]

Does anyone remember the claim that some power tools had in the 70s " double insulated". As I remember they did away with grounding making that claim. I never thought much of it.

I still see some power tools listed as double insulated. I was reading a new book on electrical wiring a month or so ago and it talked about "double insulated" power tools not having the grounding prong on the plug.

And +1 on electrically insulated tools being expensive. Lowes sells a Task Force set of 6 insulated screwdrivers for $9.99 which seems incredibly cheap. I paid almost $30 for my set of 4 Wiha insulated screwdrivers. I know which set I would trust my life to.

Coach

 

[Danglerb]

Auctions typically release the seller of any liability, its strictly caveat emptor up to the buyer to figure out.

Plasticoat is more a comfort grip thing and doesn't meet any electrical standards since its user applied, no way to test.

 

[nissan_crawler]

There is a product available that is basically liquid rubber that dries hard...Color Guard it might be called? I have an older 1 gallon can. It is meant for dipping the handles of pliers and whatnot into, and I believe one of the claims on the can is that it insulates the tool. Sounds like I should be skeptical of this claim...?

When it's the difference between living to do the next job, or being found face down in a puddle of your own urine with your feet smoking, I wouldn't trust anything other than a certified tool.

 

[Bull]

Well, how about a hypothetical? I have a pair of needle nose that are Plasticoated, no breaks in the coating. I am working on a live outlet and the tip of the tool contacts juice. Is that rubber coating going to protect me some, totally, or not at all, assuming my hand/fingers are only on the Plasticoat rubberized coating?

 

[Bull]

When it's the difference between living to do the next job, or being found face down in a puddle of your own urine with your feet smoking, I wouldn't trust anything other than a certified tool.

I am with you 100%. But when you know nothing about something, like me in this case, you like to understand the matter from different angles, you know?

 

[nissan_crawler]

Well, how about a hypothetical? I have a pair of needle nose that are Plasticoated, no breaks in the coating. I am working on a live outlet and the tip of the tool contacts juice. Is that rubber coating going to protect me some, totally, or not at all, assuming my hand/fingers are only on the Plasticoat rubberized coating?

Really hard to say, IMHO. It might do some, it might burn through the coating in a fraction of a second. The bad part is, at that point, you probably can't even let go. I saw a guy get fried working up in a drop ceiling. He couldn't let go, somebody else ran over and kicked the ladder out from under him so he dropped.

 

[Bull]

Understood.

Electricity is odd, and I don't fully understand it. The guy that did some wiring for me last year said he gets shocked all the time. The guy who helped me on my barn this fall said the same thing, and said that in his opinion people have different tolerances of what they can take.

I know the amperage involved matters, I'm just saying. I have only been shocked by 120 once, on a lamp, and I did not like it, though nothing happened to me.

 

[64merc]

Understood.

Electricity is odd, and I don't fully understand it. The guy that did some wiring for me last year said he gets shocked all the time. The guy who helped me on my barn this fall said the same thing, and said that in his opinion people have different tolerances of what they can take.

I know the amperage involved matters, I'm just saying. I have only been shocked by 120 once, on a lamp, and I did not like it, though nothing happened to me.

Bull, I'm with you in that I don't fully understand electricity, but I think the certified insulated tools are geared more towards commercial electric work rather than residential. Not that anyone like to get shocked by residential 120, but I think commercial applications are more life or death type scenarios.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Those pliers are not rated as insulated. My Wiha insulated pliers are listed as being rated for 1,000V and the covering is multi layer material. Insulated tools should also have a stamp, kind of like UL, showing that they have been rated by some agency(I can't remember the name). Just having a plastic handle is not electrical insulation. Insulated pliers often have grips that prevent your hand from slipping onto the exposed metal.

http://www.wihatools.com/pro_insulated.htm

Coach

Over here it's VDE, a German standard rating.

 

[Chris Adams]

The auction is for insulated grips which does not mean or say UL or otherwise approved, just insulated. I use insulated pliers to keep my hands or gloves from freezing to them in sub freezing weather.

I think people are reading a lot into an add, adding their own interpretations to the word choice.
Insulated means just that.
If he said the pliers are rated for 440 or whatever, and they are not then there would be a case for complaint.

I've used tools that are not 'certified' insulated on everything up to 440.
With no problems, but I've been shocked with tools that were certified because of moisture on the grip, and that's just from line current, nominal 120.

If the voltage is high enough no tool will protect you so unless you give ratings it’s all just text and thus not only lawful but honest.

On Bull’s comments, different people have WAY different degrees voltage effects them. My father had skin resistance about five times normal. He could take a zap from a 60k step transformer and just barely twitch.
I got hit with one when I was ten and woke up two hours later…

I used to have a guy work with me who would check spark plug voltage by yanking the wire off and taking the hit, no problems. Actually carry on a conversation with the coil snapping him…
I’ve heard of others getting killed by the same jolt.

 

[bchee]

The auction is for insulated grips which does not mean or say UL or otherwise approved, just insulated. I use insulated pliers to keep my hands or gloves from freezing to them in sub freezing weather.

That's a good point. I was just thinking something similar.
Although he may be intentionally misleading.

 

[nissan_crawler]

The auction is for insulated grips which does not mean or say UL or otherwise approved, just insulated. I use insulated pliers to keep my hands or gloves from freezing to them in sub freezing weather

That surprises me. I've seen tools with grips, but have never seen ones advertised as "insulated" without being electrically insulated. If so, I think it's negligent on their part. If you told anybody I know that a plier was insulated, they would think electrically.

 

[buening]

So does an insulated winter coat prevent shock?

I've been shocked by 120V before many times and it really isn't bad (line from 20A breaker I believe, nothing too serious). It scares you more than it hurts, in my opinion. I've been told 240V is a bit more painful though It doesn't like to let you go, thankfully I haven't found that out!

 

[goodfellow]

Just because a tool has a massive "cushioned grip" does not necessarily mean it is properly insulated. Many equate the bulk of the cushion material with high insulating characteristics -- this may, or may not be the case. Insulating properties are achieved through certified manufacturing processes, choice of compound materials, and high QC standards.

 

[nissan_crawler]

So does an insulated winter coat prevent shock?

I've been shocked by 120V before many times and it really isn't bad (line from 20A breaker I believe, nothing too serious). It scares you more than it hurts, in my opinion. I've been told 240V is a bit more painful though It doesn't like to let you go, thankfully I haven't found that out!

Does insulated wire keep the wire warm? I can make the same comments, too.

Fact is, most people don't think of tools as insulated for warmth, they think of them as insulated for electricity.

By the way, if 120 isn't bad, go run some water outside, then kneel in it and grab a bare wire. Let me know how that goes. It wasn't bad because you weren't grounded well.

I got hit by a 40 amp 240 line in wet grass. That will f'up your day.

 

[Danglerb]

Its all about the circuit, not just the hot side you touch, but the path back to ground through your body etc. I disappointed some neighbor kids with a new electric fence when I touched it and NOTHING happened and one of them stuck out a finger got a nice zap. I was on dry ground, clean and dry tennis shoes, and clean and dry socks, plus I wasn't sweating either, so no decent path through me to ground.

Most dangerous electrical device in your house is the microwave oven, they will Fing kill you. 120 can very easily give you a nasty burn, and any electrical shock carries some risk of screwing up your heart if the path goes through your chest. Shocks can also make you bash your arm etc. into something bad when the muscle twitches.

OTOH its only been since the OSHA era that fancy tools were used on anything but higher voltages than houses have.

That said I am still planning on letting a real electrician rewire my panel.

 

[bchee]

Did you guys see that Fear Factor where they had to grab electric eels?
http://www.nbc.com/Fear_Factor/tales/319_electric_eel.shtml

I wonder how those things work - they live in water!! Electricity is a mystery to me as well.

 

[Elroy]

Can you explain the difference? I'd like to be educated on the matter. I always thought that any non-conductive grip essentially insulated the user from potential shock.

Ya, the difference is real tools. These are the real tools that Elroy would highly suggest if you're going to be foolin around with live circuits

20,000 volt gloves and 1000 volt tools. Don't fool around.

 

[Bull]

Bull will not mess around with electricity unless someone trained and skilled is there, doing the real work or guiding him along. Bull fears what he does not understand, and that includes electricity. Bull does not want to fry his Rocky Mountain Oysters.

Nissan, I recall on this board recently someone said that they were an electrician and hated their job. Is that you, or am I thinking of someone else?

 

[buening]

Amazing video....if you are bored

 

[Elroy]

No doubt, that's minimum wage work.

 

[krusty the clown]

No doubt, that's minimum wage work.

probably doesn't deserve health care or retirement either...........

 

[nissan_crawler]

Bull will not mess around with electricity unless someone trained and skilled is there, doing the real work or guiding him along. Bull fears what he does not understand, and that includes electricity. Bull does not want to fry his Rocky Mountain Oysters.

Nissan, I recall on this board recently someone said that they were an electrician and hated their job. Is that you, or am I thinking of someone else?

Far from an electrician. I know just enough to do most house stuff on my own, and ask what I should.

It doesn't bug me to play with wiring in simple circuits, though.

 

[Bull]

Far from an electrician. I know just enough to do most house stuff on my own, and ask what I should.

It doesn't bug me to play with wiring in simple circuits, though.

Sorry, I confused you with someone else, then. Not that it matters, I was just curious to get it straight in my own head.

 

[LoneGunman]

I don't have a problem with the listing, as said by others, "insulated" means different things to different people. As an electrician I have no problem using non rated insulated tools (meaning something with a non conductive handle) on live circuits, it's done daily by 10's of thousands of electricians everyday. The standard non certified/tested insulation on standard tools are fine for all resi use as well as 99% of commercial work.

I have a pretty extensive set of 1000v insulated tools that I have purchased, they reside in closed case kept in the cab of my work truck and only see the light of day at 480v and above and in certain circumstances. Rated "T" hex wrenches are used on all energized work because I have not been able to find them with non rated insualted shafts. My screwdrivers are all 1000v rated because they are comparably priced to standard quality screwdrivers BUT a new set is in my insulated tools set.

I use these tools daily, if I used 1000v tools on every energized circuit I would be spending a whole bunch of money on replacing them, used daily and only having one set is much more dangerous than only using them when needed and using regular insulated tools for everything else. When I break out the 1000V stuff I need to know that their insulation is perfect.

If a non pro has the cash to buy rated tools then that's great, He's not going to be using them much so odds are he's not going to use them enough to damage the insulation and he's also not going to run into the higher voltages.